Traditional Asian Martial Arts or MMA?

[noworries]

When talking about superiority of styles it is absolutely foolish to think that one is no better than the other. Is boxing the same as Muy Thai? So knowing how to kick and defend kicks mean nothing? Traditional aikido, the way it is practiced in America, is absolutely worthless as a fighting art. It has become so watered down you be better off training via mail order.

I was there at the original Torrance Academy in California where Rorion started his first school. I got to witness first hand Rorion developing the concept for the UFC. To say the rules favored Jiu-Jitsu would be absolutely CORRECT. The rules were no rules. No gloves, no weight classes, no time limits. You could pull hair, do a boot dance on a grounded opponent, pinch, head butt... things like groin strikes were more of a matter of sportsmanship and if the audience would tolerant it it would also be allowed. The less rules there are the more is favors Jiu-Jitsu.

Royce Gracies was by far the least skilled Gracie. Rorion brought him over from Brasil when he was only 17 yo. He was only a blue belt at the time but Rorion needed help with his school. Those in the know joked That Royce holds the record as being the only Jiu-Jitsu fighter to go from blue-belt to black-belt. I personal watched Royler and especially Rickson school Royce like a little boy. Unlike his brothers, Royce didn't have to go through the Vale Tudo ringer that the rest of them did. When Rorion recruited Rigan and Jean-Jacques Machado to help Royce train for his fight with Kerr they both told me with their own lips how surprise they were at Royce's low level. And Royce was already a MMA champion. They said that if he was at their school he would be an advanced Purple belt.

So though Royce wasn't anywhere near the top Gracie is was enough. It was more than enough. The only one we were worried about was Ken Shamrock because he was bigger, stronger, a much better athlete but mostly because he knew ground fighting and was very good at it. Top of the food chain at his style of ground fighting. But it wasn't enough for that pathetically weak and skinny Royce Gracie because of the superiority of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

Things have changed much over the last almost 20 years when Rorion revolutionized martial arts through out the world. Pure Jiu-Jitus isn't enough to anymore. But I will tell you this, if you don't know Jiu-Jitsu, if you don't know how to defend against Jiu-Jitsu and familiar with their attacks and submissions you have no chance.

And I know many of you will be turned off to this type of talk but I wish we were all sitting in a room together so that my fellow board member, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and myself can show you first hand. That was how the Gracie's gained their reputation in Brasil, America and throughout the world. They simply demonstrated to you first hand the superiority of their style. We can talk and argue all we want but the bottom line is when we face off man to man.

Did you train up at Rorians house.

[pellius]

Did you train up at Rorians house.

No because I knew you were there and I know my limits. I started in 1991 when he opened his academy on Carson St. It was there that I met Craig Kukok. Guy was a beast and could have done some real damage it not for the injuries.

Those were really good times then. Before everything got so huge and it was just a bunch of kooks from all walks of life that like beating the crap out of each other. Little did we know we were part of history in the making. The time when that fighter from Japan, Yoji Anjo, showed up and interrupted the class to challenged Rickson is the stuff of legend. This was no holds bar, bare fisted, Vale Tudo (anything goes) fight. This was just a pure street fight these guys here keep talking about. You could gouge eyes, bite, pull hair, groin strikes, Count Dante's Dim Mak death touch. Rickson decided not to end with a submission but just brutalized the Jap. Turned his face into a bloody plup. I'm sitting there just thinking "WTF? This is like out of a fucking movie."

This must have been 1994. Sixteen f-ing years ago! Where does the time go? I really miss those days. Best years of my life.

[Mussolini]

 Well !!! let's start like this Royce had to beat 3 guys " 3 different opponents" in one night to be champion.
 UFC today  you just have to fight 1 fight.
 My point here is BJJ and not the Gracies.
 BJJ till today prove to be better.

 Btw: In 1997 The Gracies went to Japan.
 Two years latter the Almighty Coleman was defeated by Rickson's bitch.

The Takada fight was a known work, it isnt even disputed. Takada said in his biography he never had a legit win in MMA. Rickson never fought a top ten. Coleman has only been subbed by Nog and Fedor.


And it is a fact Rorion didnt want Karelin to participate and threatened to back out if he was invited, Im not making this up man.

I thought you would know this. Im not trying to discredit the Gracies at all Royce is a top 3 MMA legend, but to compare Colemans MMA's accomplishments to Ricksons is rediculous. Not to say he couldnt have been great but he is unproven and ducked Bas and Saku.


BTW who are you picking between Coleman and Couture?

[The Showstoppa]

No because I knew you were there and I know my limits. I started in 1991 when he opened his academy on Carson St. It was there that I met Craig Kukok. Guy was a beast and could have done some real damage it not for the injuries.

Those were really good times then. Before everything got so huge and it was just a bunch of kooks from all walks of life that like beating the crap out of each other. Little did we know we were part of history in the making. The time when that fighter from Japan, Yoji Anjo, showed up and interrupted the class to challenged Rickson is the stuff of legend. This was no holds bar, bare fisted, Vale Tudo (anything goes) fight. This was just a pure street fight these guys here keep talking about. You could gouge eyes, bite, pull hair, groin strikes, Count Dante's Dim Mak death touch. Rickson decided not to end with a submission but just brutalized the Jap. Turned his face into a bloody plup. I'm sitting there just thinking "WTF? This is like out of a fucking movie."

This must have been 1994. Sixteen f-ing years ago! Where does the time go? I really miss those days. Best years of my life.

great story, would loved to have been there to see that.

[Mussolini]

Did you train up at Rorians house.

Well Barnette, Fedor and Saku seemed to do pretty well for not knowing BJJ.

[OneMoreRep]

I am sensing a strong homosexual undertone in this thread...

"1"

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

The Takada fight was a known work, it isnt even disputed. Takada said in his biography he never had a legit win in MMA. Rickson never fought a top ten. Coleman has only been subbed by Nog and Fedor.


And it is a fact Rorion didnt want Karelin to participate and threatened to back out if he was invited, Im not making this up man.

I thought you would know this. Im not trying to discredit the Gracies at all Royce is a top 3 MMA legend, but to compare Colemans MMA's accomplishments to Ricksons is rediculous. Not to say he couldnt have been great but he is unproven and ducked Bas and Saku.


BTW who are you picking between Coleman and Couture?

 Coleman went to Brazil, he was rolling with some guys there.
 He almost got choked. and you want to compare him with Rickson?

[Mussolini]

I am sensing a strong homosexual undertone in this thread...

"1"

Really? What gave you that idea?

[Mussolini]

 Coleman went to Brazil, he was rolling with some guys there.
 He almost got choked. and you want to compare him with Rickson?

Yes, COleman accomplished more in terms of MMA than Rickson and it would have been an interesting fight had they went toe to toe.

Coleman was rolling in Brazil  in a practice? Practice doesnt mean much unless your Rickson and count everyone you tap in practice as a win.

Coleman= 3x UFC champ pride GP champ, but he supposedly almost got choked in a practice, so that mean Rickson who never had a win over a top 15 opponent did more in MMA?

Can you explain that to me?


what has Rickson ever done in MMA ( not BJJ or mythology but actaul MMA) to rank him anywhere near Coleman or even someone like Matt Serra?


Lets leave Coleman out of this so Im not biased. How do you think Rickson would have done against a prime Kerr, with Knees and headbutts allowed?

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

Yes, COleman accomplished more in terms of MMA than Rickson and it would have been an interesting fight had they went toe to toe.

Coleman was rolling in Brazil  in a practice? Practice doesnt mean much unless your Rickson and count everyone you tap in practice as a win.

Coleman= 3x UFC champ pride GP champ, but he supposedly almost got choked in a practice, so that mean Rickson who never had a win over a top 15 opponent did more in MMA?

Can you explain that to me?



Lets leave Coleman out of this so Im not biased. How do you think Rickson would have done against a prime Kerr, with Knees and headbutts allowed?

 Prime Kerr and Prime Rickson?
 Rickson.

[Mussolini]

 Prime Kerr and Prime Rickson?
 Rickson.

How? And why didnt Rickson fight Bas or Saku and why did it take him 7 minutes to beat a blind guy?

I admit Im a COleman guy but dude If you think a 170 lbs Rickson would last more than a mintue with a Prime Kerr with Head butts and Knee you are dellusional.



Rickson was afraid of Bas Rutten and wanted to save his rep so he made ever excuse in the book not to fight him and didnt even defend his families honor and ducked Sakuraba when he beat 4 of his family members

[Captain Equipoise]

I would like to see BJJ stop this.... maybe then I'll consider it



till then, I'm sticking to a vest.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

How? And why didnt Rickson fight Bas or Saku and why did it take him 7 minutes to beat a blind guy?

I admit Im a COleman guy but dude If you think a 170 lbs Rickson would last more than a mintue with a Prime Kerr with Head butts and Knee you are dellusional.

 You really don't know much about BJJ. do you?

[Mussolini]

 You really don't know much about BJJ. do you?

No not at all, Im just a pro fighter and have a brown belt in BJJ Moron. How many pro fights do you have again?


Every pro I know not named Gracie says Rickson is the biggest fraud in MMA history. He did fuck all in the BJJ world, dont belive me look it up. How many BJJ championships did he win? How many ADCC titles does he hold? He is smoke and mirrors nothing more. Kind of hard to dispute those claims when you have never fought a guy in the top 15 and DUCKED  every time you were challenged by a worthy opponent.


You can speculate all want but the facts and stats speak for themselves. Again How many BJJ or ADCC championships did Rickson win again?


I love hearing Bas mock Rickson on Inside MMA because it so true. He ducked a 200 lbs Bas no fewer than 5 times. If he is so great why did he duck Bas? Can you please answer that for me so I understand?


Why wouldnt this great "fighter" man up and fight Saku and defend the family honor after Sak beat 4 of his family members? I know why, because he knew he would get his ass kicked and his mystique would be ruined forever. If he ducked him he would still have nuthuggers like yourself who believe he was the best despite never beating anyone of worth in MMA or BJJ.



I will help you out. I know you cant refute any of my claims with MMA stats or facts but Im sure I made some spelling and grammar errors in my post so why dont you bring them up to support how good Rickson was in MMA?

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

No not at all, Im just a pro fighter and have a brown belt in BJJ Moron. How many pro fights do you have again?


Every pro I know not named Gracie says Rickson is the biggest fraud in MMA history. He did fuck all in the BJJ world, dont belive me look it up. How many BJJ championships did he win? How many ADCC titles does he hold? He is smoke and mirrors nothing more. Kind of hard to dispute those claims when you have never fought a guy in the top 15 and DUCKED  every time you were challenged by a worthy opponent.


You can speculate all want but the facts and stats speak for themselves. Again How many BJJ or ADCC championships did Rickson win again?


I love hearing Bas mock Rickson on Inside MMA because it so true. He ducked a 200 lbs Bas no fewer than 5 times. If he is so great why did he duck Bas? Can you please answer that for me so I understand?


Why wouldnt this great "fighter" man up and fight Saku and defend the family honor after Sak beat 4 of his family members? I know why, because he knew he would get his ass kicked and his mystique would be ruined forever. If he ducked him he would still have nuthuggers like yourself who believe he was the best despite never beating anyone of worth in MMA or BJJ.



I will help you out. I know you cant refute any of my claims with MMA stats or facts but Im sure I made some spelling and grammar errors in my post so why dont you bring them up to support how good Rickson was in MMA?

 Dude, I know who you are. and that means shit to me.
 Let's do it like this, you have your opinion and I have mine. end of story.
 About me. I'm black belt under Carlson Gracie.

[Azn Muscle]

 Dude, I know who you are.
 Let's do it like this, you have your opinion and I have mine. end of story.
 About me. I'm black belt under Carlson Gracie.

Does a black belt in BJJ make you invincible?

Because that is the sense I get in this thread.  It seems all you BJJ guys believe once you become a master you will never lose no matter what under any circumstances.

I'm not doubting that you guys can defend yourselves and probably win most fights.  Nobody is questioning that BJJ has its rightful place and is an effective style of training.

But to claim that your art is superior to all and that you will never lose (against non-BJJ masters) once you master it is a fallacy in itself.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

Does a black belt in BJJ make you invincible?

Because that is the sense I get in this thread.  It seems all you BJJ guys believe once you become a master you will never lose no matter what under any circumstances.

I'm not doubting that you guys can defend yourselves and probably win most fights.  Nobody is questioning that BJJ has its rightful place and is an effective style of training.

But to claim that your art is superior to all and that you will never lose (against non-BJJ masters) once you master it is a fallacy in itself.

 No, it doesn't and I don't have the power to stop bullets .
 I'm a man like you.

[big L dawg]

No not at all, Im just a pro fighter and have a brown belt in BJJ Moron. How many pro fights do you have again?


Every pro I know not named Gracie says Rickson is the biggest fraud in MMA history. He did fuck all in the BJJ world, dont belive me look it up. How many BJJ championships did he win? How many ADCC titles does he hold? He is smoke and mirrors nothing more. Kind of hard to dispute those claims when you have never fought a guy in the top 15 and DUCKED  every time you were challenged by a worthy opponent.


You can speculate all want but the facts and stats speak for themselves. Again How many BJJ or ADCC championships did Rickson win again?


I love hearing Bas mock Rickson on Inside MMA because it so true. He ducked a 200 lbs Bas no fewer than 5 times. If he is so great why did he duck Bas? Can you please answer that for me so I understand?


Why wouldnt this great "fighter" man up and fight Saku and defend the family honor after Sak beat 4 of his family members? I know why, because he knew he would get his ass kicked and his mystique would be ruined forever. If he ducked him he would still have nuthuggers like yourself who believe he was the best despite never beating anyone of worth in MMA or BJJ.



I will help you out. I know you cant refute any of my claims with MMA stats or facts but Im sure I made some spelling and grammar errors in my post so why dont you bring them up to support how good Rickson was in MMA?

Damn!!! Mussolini layin the smack down....good arguments backed with Logic,reason & facts to boot....Thats not the normal getbig way....but it's the Superior way to make an valid case which you did...and then some...

[Mussolini]

 Dude, I know who you are. and that means shit to me.
 Let's do it like this, you have your opinion and I have mine. end of story.
 About me. I'm black belt under Carlson Gracie.

I can respect that entirely. Props to you man.


And I by no means think I know more than you are anyone else because I have fought pro nor do I think I am a great fighter who is any tougher than the next guy. I feel I am knowledgeable on the subject of MMA as I have been following the sport since the first UFC and own almost every pride and ufc dvd there is. I have wrestled in since grade school and compete in sub grappling and MMA about 2-3 times each a year because I love competing. I train catch/bjj ( my coach is a protege of Erik Paulson and is a BJJ black belt under Royler) 2-3 times a week and have a tremendous amount of respect for Royce and what he did for the sport.


 Obviously I am bias to Coleman becasue I train with Hammer House several times a year and hopefuly more this year when Im done school. Coleman also respects the Gracies imensly and is a close friend of Renzo's. Belive it or not Coleman and Renzo have prepped together many times. Coleman helped Renzo with wrestling in his fights with BJ and PAt and Coleman trained with Renzo to get ready for Shogun 1 and is with im for his COuture fight.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

I can respect that entirely. Props to you man.

 Thanks.

 You may agree with me, or may not. But... most  of the time fighters start to mock other fighters to get attention.
 
 You know that,to try to get a easy title shot.
 
 Rickson was not running from Saku or Bas, but they must  pay their dues first.
 
 There's money involved too.
 
 Do you understand my point, sorry my English sucks.

 Once again my point was BJJ and not the Gracies.

[Mussolini]

Thanks.

 You may agree with me, or may not. But... most  of the time fighters start to mock other fighters to get attention.
 
 You know that,to try to get a easy title shot.
 
 Rickson was not running from Saku or Bas, but they must  pay their dues first.
 
 There's money involved too.
 
 Do you understand my point, sorry my English sucks.

 Once again my point was BJJ and not the Gracies.

Cool man and I mean no disrespect but how did they need to pay there dues anymore? Bas was on a 22 fight win streak and Saku had already beaten four of Ricksons brothers. Rickson only had 10 MM fights and never fought anyone neer the caliber of the opponents Bas or saku faced. I am being serious and realy want to know why did Rickson feel they had to prove themselves more? Again I mean no disrespect but am very curious at to why they never fought.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

Cool man and I mean no disrespect but how did they need to pay there dues anymore? Bas was on a 22 fight win streak and Saku had already beaten four of Ricksons brothers. Rickson only had 10 MM fights and never fought anyone neer the caliber of the opponents Bas or saku faced. I am being serious and realy want to know why did Rickson feel they had to prove themselves more? Again I mean no disrespect but am very curious at to why they never fought.

  No hard feelings.

 Look Rickson defeated Sakuraba's master 2 times.

 Some people say that Rickson should go there and fight Saku.
 
 Others saying to not fight saku, it would be like your master fighting in your place.

 Rickson and Takada are in different position.

 The problem between Saku and the rest of the Gracies should be resolve between them.

 But again theres a lot of thinks that we don't know.
 
 You keep asking me about Bas.

 To Rickson at the time Bas was a nobody, Bas was trying to mock Rickson so he could get a chance to fight.

 Please tell me how many times Bas fought in Pride?

 Do you think he would should up there and fight the champ?

 Got pay your dues.

[Mussolini]

  No hard feelings.

 Look Rickson defeated Sakuraba's master 2 times.

 Some people say that Rickson should go there and fight Saku.
 
 Others saying to not fight saku, it would be like your master fighting in your place.

 Rickson and Takada are in different position.

 The problem between Saku and the rest of the Gracies should be resolve between them.

 But again theres a lot of thinks that we don't know.
 
 You keep asking me about Bas.

 To Rickson at the time Bas was a nobody, Bas was trying to mock Rickson so he could get a chance to fight.

 Please tell me how many times Bas fought in Pride?

 Do you think he would should up there and fight the champ?

 Got pay your dues.

SO Rickson defeated Takada who admited he never had a legit win in Pride so he didnt fight Saku even though he beat 4 family members? That doesnt make sense to me but fine.

ANd Bas was on a 22 fight win streak, What did Rickson do in pride besides have two wins over a guy who admitted in his biography that he never had a legit win in pride. So let me get this straight, Rickson figrued that him beating a guy who never won a real fight was a better accomplishment than Bas being on a 22 fight win streak and becoming a UFC champion? Do you see why myself and every other fighter not named Gracie feels that Rickson ducked Bas? Seriously man look at the situation objectivly. Unless there is more to the story than I have heard so far it looks like Rickson is making pretty lame excuses as to why he shouldnt fight Bas or Saku. Im just calling a spade a spade bro. I would argue as valiently to defend Coleman as you are Rickson though so I can't and won't fault you.



Again props to you being a black belt and I admit the value of BJJ in MMA and that MMA would not be what it is today without the Gracie family, but Royce and Royler and Renzo did more in MMA than Rickson did IMO.

[GRACIE JIU-JITSU]

 Rickson did a lot for the family.
 
 Who do you think got the contract with the Army, FBI and the Police in America?

 Ask around about the S'E'A'L'S story?

[noworries]

Hey I beat Rickson