Author Topic: France moves closer to banning the burqa.  (Read 4091 times)

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« on: January 25, 2010, 12:07:53 PM »
Paris, France (CNN) -- French lawmakers could recommend Tuesday that the fiercely secular country ban the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy controversially told lawmakers in June that the traditional Muslim garment was "not welcome" in France.

"The problem of the burqa is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burqa is not welcome in France," Sarkozy said.

A day later, the French National Assembly announced the creation of an inquiry into whether women in France should be allowed to wear the covering.

A cross-party panel of 32 lawmakers has been studying whether the burqa poses a threat to France's constitutionally-mandated secularism. A ban could make it impossible for women who wear the burqa to receive any public services, from buying a bus ticket to picking up a child at school.

Some members of parliament want to go even further with a law that might make wearing a full veil subject to a $1,000 fine.

"You know, it is not only an article of clothing to hide your face," said parliamentary majority leader Jean-Francois Cope. "I am sorry, it's a choice which is not compatible with the rules of the republic."

Within days of Sarkozy's announcement, al Qaeda threatened to "take revenge" on France "by every means and wherever we can reach them," according to a statement posted on radical Islamist Web sites.

"We will not tolerate such provocations and injustices, and we will take our revenge from France," said the statement, signed by Abu Musab Abdul Wadud, calling himself "commander of al Qaeda in North Africa [Islamic Maghreb]."

But more than half of French people support the ban, according to a recent opinion poll. The Ipsos poll for Le Point magazine found 57 percent of French people said it should be illegal to appear in public wearing clothes that cover the face, like the burqa.

That's despite government estimates that less than 2,000 women in the country actually wear the full Islamic veil.

France has about 3.5 million Muslims, representing about 6 percent of the population, according to research by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. The country does not collect its own statistics on religion in accordance with laws enshrining France's status as a secular state.

French lawmakers believe the burqa is a growing phenomenon beneath which lies a not-so-subtle message of fundamentalism.

Those who advocate the ban say women are often forced to wear full veils by the men around them -- husbands, fathers or brothers -- and that it is a sign of subjugation.

However, women who actually wear the veils deny that.

"You are going to isolate these women and then you can't say that it is Islam that has denied them freedom, but that the law has," said Mabrouka Boujnah, a language teacher of Tunisian origin.

Boujnah, who at 28 is about to have her first child, says she came to wearing a full veil gradually, after wearing headscarves as an teenager. She believes a law like the one being discussed will take away fundamental rights of Muslim women.

She and her friend Oumkheyr say they prefer to cover their faces out of piety.

Oumkheyr, in her 40s and unmarried, says she even has friends who wear full veils against the wishes of their husbands. Oumkheyr, who is from Algeria, would not give her last name.

The women, both French citizens, say they are only following their religious beliefs and France should respect that.

But even some Muslims here think the full veil goes too far.

There is nothing in Quran that directs women to cover their faces, said Imam Hassen Chalghoumi, who runs the Islamic center in Drancy, a Paris suburb. He said it is ridiculous to do so in France.

While French lawmakers from both left- and right-wing parties seem ready to pass at least a resolution discouraging the full veil in public places, it's a choice Boujnah and Oumkheyr say they will continue to make. They pair say they will willingly show their faces for identification purposes -- but if it comes to it, they will break any law that runs contrary to their religious beliefs..

At the very least any law directed at full veils is likely to be challenged in the courts both here and at the European level. What's more, even police find it hard to imagine how they could -- or would -- enforce such a ban.

In 2004, the French parliament passed legislation banning Muslim girls from wearing headscarves in state schools, prompting widespread Muslim protests. The law also banned other conspicuous religious symbols including Sikh turbans, large Christian crucifixes and Jewish skull caps.

In 2008, France's top court denied a Moroccan woman's naturalization request on the grounds that she wore a burqa.

France is not the only European Union country to consider banning the burqa. Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a ban in 2005, although the government at the time left office before legislation could be passed.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/25/france.burqa/index.html?hpt=T2

About time someone took a stand against these Islamic Crusaders.

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 02:57:53 PM »
Damn, I find myself actually liking something the French may do.  Crazy times...

Hereford

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 11:57:12 AM »
Go France!

Ban muslims too while you're at it. Your terrorism rates will plummet.

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 01:03:43 PM »
Each country to it's own.  I just hope this doesn't impinge religious freedom like the swiss have done with their minaret ban. 
Abandon every hope...

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6803
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 01:46:40 PM »
Each country to it's own.  I just hope this doesn't impinge religious freedom like the swiss have done with their minaret ban. 

What!? does not having a minaret prevent someone from practicing Islam? No? Then it is not impinging on anyones religious freedom.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 01:48:44 PM »
What!? does not having a minaret prevent someone from practicing Islam? No? Then it is not impinging on anyones religious freedom.

For someone who believes in rights and freedoms you take a weird stance on things sometimes.  Perhaps it's due to a palatable anti-muslim sentiment most americans like yourself hold. 
Abandon every hope...

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 01:52:36 PM »
Each country to it's own.  I just hope this doesn't impinge religious freedom like the swiss have done with their minaret ban. 

The burqa has nothing to do with Islam. It's used as a means of making women subservient.  ::)

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6803
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 01:55:03 PM »
For someone who believes in rights and freedoms you take a weird stance on things sometimes.  Perhaps it's due to a palatable anti-muslim sentiment most americans like yourself hold.  

No I don't have a weird stance, answer the question, does not having a minaret prevent anyone from practicing Islam? Do you even know what the purpose of a minaret is?

If they banned the steeple on a church would that prevent people from practicing Christianity?
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 01:56:50 PM »
The burqa has nothing to do with Islam. It's used as a means of making women subservient.  ::)

islam means submission.  it's a faith of submission.  banning part of that is banning part of the faith.  I believe muslim woman should be allowed to choose.  if they wish to wear a burqa then that is their choice, not the govts to make. 
Abandon every hope...

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 01:58:43 PM »
No I don't have a weird stance, answer the question, does not having a minaret prevent anyone from practicing Islam? Do you even know what the purpose of a minaret is?

If they banned the steeple on a church would that prevent people from practicing Christianity?

well it serves the purpose of a call to prayer.  is it essential? No.  But that doesn't mean it should be taken away, it's apart of religious expression and freedom.  By banning it you are on a slippery slope. 
Abandon every hope...

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 02:03:16 PM »
islam means submission.  it's a faith of submission.  banning part of that is banning part of the faith.  I believe muslim woman should be allowed to choose.  if they wish to wear a burqa then that is their choice, not the govts to make.  

It is the government's choice to make. France is a VERY secular society and it's even mandated in their constitution. Muslim men forcing their women to wear the burqa is assaulting that very principle. Thankfully they're on track to ban that useless garb.

Wearing a burqa will not affect the practicing of Islam in anyway. What it will affect is a man's control over his slavewoman. It is a means of subjugation and nothing more.

As Sakorzy said last summer, "The problem of the burqa is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burqa is not welcome in France."

Either way, it looks like the French lawmakers pussed out and are recommending only a partial ban.  ::)

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6803
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 02:11:13 PM »
well it serves the purpose of a call to prayer.  is it essential? No.  But that doesn't mean it should be taken away, it's apart of religious expression and freedom.  By banning it you are on a slippery slope. 

There is no slope and it is not slippery, the Swiss have not banned Islam. A mosque, church, synagog are simply buildings. No where I have even seen a guarantee that you can build a place of worship, only that you can worship.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 02:16:01 PM »
They banned the minaret because the Muslim Crusaders insist on building them higher than any other building in the area (another way of displaying their perceived superiority) and couldn't care less about destroying the view or skyline. It serves no purpose and every one of them should be torn down or built at a height on par with the rest of the buildings.

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 02:55:16 PM »
It is the government's choice to make. France is a VERY secular society and it's even mandated in their constitution. Muslim men forcing their women to wear the burqa is assaulting that very principle. Thankfully they're on track to ban that useless garb.

Wearing a burqa will not affect the practicing of Islam in anyway. What it will affect is a man's control over his slavewoman. It is a means of subjugation and nothing more.

As Sakorzy said last summer, "The problem of the burqa is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burqa is not welcome in France."

Either way, it looks like the French lawmakers pussed out and are recommending only a partial ban.  ::)

So you believe the govt can choose what you can and can not wear?

I agree woman should have a right to choose, islam has too many men that wish to crush female free will.  But this is a case of the govt doing the exact same thing is it not?
Abandon every hope...

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2010, 03:04:14 PM »
So you believe the govt can choose what you can and can not wear?

I agree woman should have a right to choose, islam has too many men that wish to crush female free will.  But this is a case of the govt doing the exact same thing is it not?

I believe France, whose constitution mandates secularism, can indeed choose what someone can and can't wear if what someone is wearing violates one of the founding principles of the country.

And for what it's worth, over 50% of French people agree. Out with the burqa. It violates one of France's most prominent laws and has no business in French culture. If women want to be subjugated like that they could go back to their Muslim country and wear their burqas.
 

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 03:15:26 PM »
I believe France, whose constitution mandates secularism, can indeed choose what someone can and can't wear if what someone is wearing violates one of the founding principles of the country.

And for what it's worth, over 50% of French people agree. Out with the burqa. It violates one of France's most prominent laws and has no business in French culture. If women want to be subjugated like that they could go back to their Muslim country and wear their burqas.
 

And if they have been born in france then where are they to go?  Will they be arrested for expressing their religious freedom?  This is nothing but a chance to take away someones freedom because you are scared of what you don't understand.  Sure they'll trot out examples of terrorists and dirt bag males who subjugate woman to horrible conditions, but what of those woman who choose this.  Are they suppose to be forced into something because of fear and idiots in their religion? 

What if your freedoms were taken because of some idiots in your race, family, religion etc? 
Abandon every hope...

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 04:12:25 PM »
And if they have been born in france then where are they to go?  Will they be arrested for expressing their religious freedom?  This is nothing but a chance to take away someones freedom because you are scared of what you don't understand.  Sure they'll trot out examples of terrorists and dirt bag males who subjugate woman to horrible conditions, but what of those woman who choose this.  Are they suppose to be forced into something because of fear and idiots in their religion?  

What if your freedoms were taken because of some idiots in your race, family, religion etc?  

No, this is a chance to take away someone's ability to subjugate a woman because their constitution MANDATES secularism. Women who choose to wear it can leave France. The French constitution was around long before they were born and they're welcome to leave if they don't like it. They'll be in the minority as over 50% of French people agree with banning the burqa.

The country is built on secularism. The Muslim Crusaders, try as they might (and they usually succeed), are not exempt from that. Removing the burqa will not affect the practicing of their religion. Just like removing the eyesore that is those minarets won't affect Muslims practicing in Switzerland.

James

  • Guest
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 04:14:36 PM »

drkaje

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18188
  • Quiet, Err. I'm transmitting rage.
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 04:28:59 PM »
They should ban all religious garb for the sake of equality.

Hereford

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 05:11:04 PM »
They should ban all religious garb for the sake of equality.

Religious garb offends me.

Where's my lawyer....

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2010, 09:10:37 AM »
No, this is a chance to take away someone's ability to subjugate a woman because their constitution MANDATES secularism. Women who choose to wear it can leave France. The French constitution was around long before they were born and they're welcome to leave if they don't like it. They'll be in the minority as over 50% of French people agree with banning the burqa.

The country is built on secularism. The Muslim Crusaders, try as they might (and they usually succeed), are not exempt from that. Removing the burqa will not affect the practicing of their religion. Just like removing the eyesore that is those minarets won't affect Muslims practicing in Switzerland.

So a French citizen who wishes to wear the burqa should just leave their homeland?  This is your justification that 50% of people want to suppress a minority? Wow you would have fitted right in with the Nazis and other Anti-Semites throughout history.   Quite ironic really that Muslims are being treated much the same way Jews were for hundreds (in not thousands) of years, as second class citizens with no rights, all at the behest of a misinformed angry 'majority'.
Abandon every hope...

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6803
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2010, 09:27:53 AM »
So a French citizen who wishes to wear the burqa should just leave their homeland?  This is your justification that 50% of people want to suppress a minority? Wow you would have fitted right in with the Nazis and other Anti-Semites throughout history.   Quite ironic really that Muslims are being treated much the same way Jews were for hundreds (in not thousands) of years, as second class citizens with no rights, all at the behest of a misinformed angry 'majority'.

Dude your argument has just ventured into the surreal. Yeah Muslims are treated like 2nd class citizens ::), as soon as they are enslaved by the Egyptians or rounded up by the Nazi's, or purged by the Communist you can make the comparison.  No rights my ass, they come to the host country and try to impose their culture on it, and when things don't go their way they try to use the countries own laws against them.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39442
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2010, 09:34:04 AM »
Dude your argument has just ventured into the surreal. Yeah Muslims are treated like 2nd class citizens ::), as soon as they are enslaved by the Egyptians or rounded up by the Nazi's, or purged by the Communist you can make the comparison.  No rights my ass, they come to the host country and try to impose their culture on it, and when things don't go their way they try to use the countries own laws against them.

Why dont those "women" go the hell home if they dont like it. 

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2010, 09:34:18 AM »
So a French citizen who wishes to wear the burqa should just leave their homeland?  This is your justification that 50% of people want to suppress a minority? Wow you would have fitted right in with the Nazis and other Anti-Semites throughout history.   Quite ironic really that Muslims are being treated much the same way Jews were for hundreds (in not thousands) of years, as second class citizens with no rights, all at the behest of a misinformed angry 'majority'.

Nice try but my problem rests with the fact that France is a secular country. It's dictated in their constitution and this applies to ALL religions. Muslims, in their great crusade against the West, are again trying to circumvent that fact. France's constitution has now been around for a few centuries. The Muslims, try as they might, are not exempt from the constitution because they have a problem with everything. If they don't like it, they can go back to a Muslim country and rock their burqa and be modern day slaves to their heart's content.

Not that it matters. The French government pussied out and is only recommending a "partial" burqa ban.  ::)

kcballer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4598
  • In you I feel so pretty, In you I taste God
Re: France moves closer to banning the burqa.
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2010, 09:35:25 AM »
Dude your argument has just ventured into the surreal. Yeah Muslims are treated like 2nd class citizens ::), as soon as they are enslaved by the Egyptians or rounded up by the Nazi's, or purged by the Communist you can make the comparison.  No rights my ass, they come to the host country and try to impose their culture on it, and when things don't go their way they try to use the countries own laws against them.

This is the start Kazan.  You chip away at the rights and freedoms of someone based on their religion and it's a snowball effect.  Jews weren't put straight into death camps etc.  It's was a process over years.  Like a river that carves out a canyon, it's not an overnight thing.

Who says they came anywhere.  The countries a lot of them came from were french territories for hundreds of years and allowed them passage into France.  Thousands have grown up there, were born there, are French in every sense of the word.  But now because they are muslim they must give up their freedom to choose how they will dress?  

Abandon every hope...