Sen. Durbin DESTROYS Republican Arguments on Malpractice Reform

[24KT]

Whether they used it or not is not the point here.  They defended saying 51 votes and you win.  Period.  If the Dems have 51 votes and pass it, it's a win.  The republicans can get upset all they want it's using the same rules they have used and defended before. 

This is EXACTLY what happened up here in Canada during our Quebec sovereignty referendum.
Prime Minister Jean Cretien said the YES side had to have a clear mandate for separation, he would not accept 51%

In the end, it came down to 50.4% voting NO, with 49.6% voting YES Quebec should separate from Canada.

Of course, as a federalist, Jean Cretien found that 50.4% NO vote from Quebecois was acceptable.  lol

[drkaje]

This is EXACTLY what happened up here in Canada during our Quebec sovereignty referendum.
Prime Minister Jean Cretien said the YES side had to have a clear mandate for separation, he would not accept 51%

In the end, it came down to 50.4% voting NO, with 49.6% voting YES Quebec should separate from Canada.

Of course, as a federalist, Jean Cretien found that 50.4% NO vote from Quebecois was acceptable.  lol

One of my friends was pro sovereignty. He really believed it was affordable/sustainable.

Had to been one of the most uptight people I've ever met. He was from Quebec, of course.

[24KT]

One of my friends was pro sovereignty. He really believed it was affordable/sustainable.

Had to been one of the most uptight people I've ever met. He was from Quebec, of course.

The only pro-sovereigntists were from Quebec. Thank Goodness that issue has finally been laid to rest.
The hilarious part is many were fearful of being gobbled up by English Canada,
yet thought maybe they could join with the US? Talk about monoculture. They'd have been lost for sure.
Many were foolish enough to think it was affordable & sustainable. Most have since wised up.

[Skip8282]

Likable doctors do get sued less but having a perfect track record only saves so much. The financial result of claims paid still gets passed on to policy holders and investors.

Let's face it, you can't "... at least show some interest and care regarding the patient.." when insurance companies have been cutting reimbursements while costs of doing business keep going up.

Just like shootfighter, you keep wanting one sided reform.  Let's drop the pretense that juries award huge damages for minor shit that was beyond a doctors control.  That may happen once in a blue moon, but in reality, the doctors have to fuck up pretty significantly.  Clean your own profession up and go after the fuck-ups with a vengeance.  

You don't want to show interest and care with a patient because you're pissed off at the insurance company, then don't treat the patient.

[MCWAY]

Whether they used it or not is not the point here.  They defended saying 51 votes and you win.  Period.  If the Dems have 51 votes and pass it, it's a win.  The republicans can get upset all they want it's using the same rules they have used and defended before.  

And the Democrats were crying about this in 2005, about confirming justices, not because the people had a problem with them, but because the DEMS had a problem with them.

Then, they cried and whined about using the nuclear option. Yet, now they want to do it, to impose some crap that the American people don't want.

That is just plain ridiculous and will lead to the Dems getting their clocks cleaned this November. Then, they'll look all dumbfounded wondering why they got beat.

And, I guarantee you, when the Dems are in the minority and the GOP wants to pass something that the people want but the Dems don't want, they'll go for the filibuster and WHINE LIKE BABIES at the very hint of a nuclear option.

[kcballer]

And the Democrats were crying about this in 2005, about confirming justices, not because the people had a problem with them, but because the DEMS had a problem with them.

Then, they cried and whined about using the nuclear option. Yet, now they want to do it, to impose some crap that the American people don't want.

That is just plain ridiculous and will lead to the Dems getting their clocks cleaned this November. Then, they'll look all dumbfounded wondering why they got beat.

And, I guarantee you, when the Dems are in the minority and the GOP wants to pass something that the people want but the Dems don't want, they'll go for the filibuster and WHINE LIKE BABIES at the very hint of a nuclear option.

So both parties whine like babies when the other uses this to pass legislation.  wow who would have thought 

It's funny how you meltdown with the republicans though as if the only thing you have is the party line that you must toe every day. 

[drkaje]

Just like shootfighter, you keep wanting one sided reform.  Let's drop the pretense that juries award huge damages for minor shit that was beyond a doctors control.  That may happen once in a blue moon, but in reality, the doctors have to fuck up pretty significantly.  Clean your own profession up and go after the fuck-ups with a vengeance.  

You don't want to show interest and care with a patient because you're pissed off at the insurance company, then don't treat the patient.

I'm not talking about cases where doctors make egregious errors or one-sided reform. Good reform would at least keep healthcare affordable on both sides. Without reducing costs people will lose the ability to deliver care. I'm not just talking about malpractice but health insurance reform as well.

Even if your idea of healthcare only includes non-profit hospitals with doctor employees it's still not sustainable. One of the reasons is simply because hospitals pay all the malpractice on doctor employees*. Also, they're on the hook for a percentage of malpractice insurance for whatever specialists or people with admission privileges pay depending upon whatever split is negotiated. On top of that hospitals will have pay for tail coverage whenever someone leaves or retires.

Being pissed off at insurance companies or not caring about patients isn't at issue. Do the math before making statements like that. It's painfully simple: Payment goes down + costs go up = shorter visits. It ain't rocket science to figure out a point comes where delivering healthcare is impossible.

*The truly foolish are free to carry additional insurance.

[Skip8282]

Being pissed off at insurance companies or not caring about patients isn't at issue. Do the math before making statements like that. It's painfully simple: Payment goes down + costs go up = shorter visits. It ain't rocket science to figure out a point comes where delivering healthcare is impossible.

I didn't make the statement - you made it:

Let's face it, you can't "... at least show some interest and care regarding the patient.." when insurance companies have been cutting reimbursements while costs of doing business keep going up.

Secondly, you're just flat out misleading.  Only the government has cut reimbursements.  Private insurance reimbursements have increased along with my co-pay which has gone from $10/$15 (general/specialist) to $25/$50.  Increased costs are true with healthcare inflation significantly out-stripping regular inflation.  And physicians are just as culpable as everybody else in contributing to those soaring costs.

The math is only simple because you want it to be.  Instead of getting your asses in gear, putting inflation in check, and getting costs down, your response is to treat more people in less time.  And when it comes to a persons health, that's about the dumbest solution around.

[drkaje]

I didn't make the statement - you made it:

Secondly, you're just flat out misleading.  Only the government has cut reimbursements.  Private insurance reimbursements have increased along with my co-pay which has gone from $10/$15 (general/specialist) to $25/$50.  Increased costs are true with healthcare inflation significantly out-stripping regular inflation.  And physicians are just as culpable as everybody else in contributing to those soaring costs.

The math is only simple because you want it to be.  Instead of getting your asses in gear, putting inflation in check, and getting costs down, your response is to treat more people in less time.  And when it comes to a persons health, that's about the dumbest solution around.

The gov adjusted medicare reimbursements. Some up, some down.

Blue cross blue shield has been cutting/adjusting like other companies. Don't even get me going on capitated fees.

We can't control inflation. Treating more people is the only way to keep things going. Sadly, it is just that simple.

Lastly.... healthcare is a commodity, not a right. You don't have a right to whatever expertise the amount of time it takes someone to become a doctor. Just like I can't walk into a garage and claim the mechanic should fix our car for free.

[Soul Crusher]

The gov adjusted medicare reimbursements. Some up, some down.

Blue cross blue shield has been cutting/adjusting like other companies. Don't even get me going on capitated fees.

We can't control inflation. Treating more people is the only way to keep things going. Sadly, it is just that simple.

Lastly.... healthcare is a commodity, not a right. You don't have a right to whatever expertise the amount of time it takes someone to become a doctor. Just like I can't walk into a garage and claim the mechanic should fix our car for free.

Exactly.  Everyone expects doctors to work for free not realizing the huge overhead they have and screaming about rights, fairness etc.

[drkaje]

Exactly.  Everyone expects doctors to work for free not realizing the huge overhead they have and screaming about rights, fairness etc.

I'm guessing they all go to work for free.

[Soul Crusher]

I'm guessing they all go to work for free.

Yeah, I want to see you call a plumber for free when the main line in the house breaks! 

Yet people expect doctors to do the same thing when their main line fails. 

Health Care is not a right, its a service.  If people took better care of themselves we wouldnt have people screaming like idiots for free everything. 

[Skip8282]

Blue cross blue shield has been cutting/adjusting like other companies. Don't even get me going on capitated fees.

I don't have reimbursement rates for BC/BS nor do I know your state.  But, I have them for my HMO and they've all gone up.  In fact they've gone up every year since 2003 with a huge explosion in 2008.

We can't control inflation. Treating more people is the only way to keep things going. Sadly, it is just that simple.

Bullshit.  Year after year higher than average wage increases in the industry are directly attributable to the soaring inflation.

Lastly.... healthcare is a commodity, not a right. You don't have a right to whatever expertise the amount of time it takes someone to become a doctor. Just like I can't walk into a garage and claim the mechanic should fix our car for free.

Neither here nor there.  I never claimed such and don't believe that healthcare is a right.  It's just your attempt to spin.  Are you an actual physician?  Do you think you don't need patients or something?  Like it or not, you are going to have to work with people to get costs down.  You may only WANT to try and treat more in less time, but at some point, you will hit a limit and be forced to work within the confines of what people can pay.

[Skip8282]

Yeah, I want to see you call a plumber for free when the main line in the house breaks! 

Yet people expect doctors to do the same thing when their main line fails. 

Health Care is not a right, its a service.  If people took better care of themselves we wouldnt have people screaming like idiots for free everything. 

Stop being a douche.  You know well that I don't think it's a right.  Nevertheless, at some point, they will have to work within the confines of what people can pay.  The inflation in healthcare cannot continue to outstrip regular inflation.

[Soul Crusher]

Stop being a douche.  You know well that I don't think it's a right.  Nevertheless, at some point, they will have to work within the confines of what people can pay.  The inflation in healthcare cannot continue to outstrip regular inflation.

I wasnt referring to you Skip and I agree 100%, but guess what, the price inflation is also a tax issue and third party payment issue since people dont really pay for what they use, and pay for the stuff they dont use. 

Take away the health care monopoly, give the healh money for premiuims to consumers instead of it being employment based, give individuals the tax deduction, and there will be far more competition and downward price forces.   

[Skip8282]

I wasnt referring to you Skip and I agree 100%, but guess what, the price inflation is also a tax issue and third party payment issue since people dont really pay for what they use, and pay for the stuff they dont use. 

Take away the health care monopoly, give the healh money for premiuims to consumers instead of it being employment based, give individuals the tax deduction, and there will be far more competition and downward price forces.   

I couldn't agree more.  However, where I take issue with Shootfighter and Kaje is when they act as though they aren't part of the problem and everything else like malpractice reform is the end all be all.  Physicians can accept their responsibility in this mess just as consumers, corporations, and the government can.

[Soul Crusher]

I couldn't agree more.  However, where I take issue with Shootfighter and Kaje is when they act as though they aren't part of the problem and everything else like malpractice reform is the end all be all.  Physicians can accept their responsibility in this mess just as consumers, corporations, and the government can.

Here is the issue though, they dont get paid what they bill and often only get paid a fraction of the bill.  Also, increasing HIPPA compliance laws, mandates, etc, all add to overhead and that has to be met somewhere, whether its increased billing and upcoding or seeing more patients. 

I'm not defending it, i just also know that there are often many forces at work other than the doc himself.   

[drkaje]

I couldn't agree more.  However, where I take issue with Shootfighter and Kaje is when they act as though they aren't part of the problem and everything else like malpractice reform is the end all be all.  Physicians can accept their responsibility in this mess just as consumers, corporations, and the government can.

Doctors are a part of the problem because, LOL! My point is that malpractice/tort reform will make delivering healthcare more affordable to individual practices. It's not the only cost that goes way up before going down some but it needs to be legitimately addressed at some point.

Unfortunately, the people in charge of fixing this mess are trial lawyers, career politicians or owned by lobbyists. Doing something real, affordable, and sustainable would require changing our entire political system. By "mess" I mean this whole damn thing.

[Soul Crusher]

Doctors are a part of the problem because, LOL! My point is that malpractice/tort reform will make delivering healthcare more affordable to individual practices. It's not the only cost that goes way up before going down some but it needs to be legitimately addressed at some point.

Unfortunately, the people in charge of fixing this mess are trial lawyers, career politicians or owned by lobbyists. Doing something real, affordable, and sustainable would require changing our entire political system. By "mess" I mean this whole damn thing.

Until I opened my own business, 8 years ago, I thought I knew alot.  Until you actually run a business and understand a/p. a/r. fixed overhead, etc, most people really dont understand how difficult it really is.

My E/O insurance always goes up despite having no claims, taxes go up, etc etc, so I have two choices, increase my billing rate or decrease expenses. 

Those are not always easy to do in a bad economic environment like we have and many docs face the same thing. 

[shootfighter1]

Skip, you are obviously not directly involved in the healthcare industry like Kaje and I.

Doctors, nurses and hospitals make mistakes, of course and there is a continue struggle to lessen these.  However, medicine is complicated and not exact, there will always be mistakes and grievances.  There are also a % of people that you'll never satisfy or have horrible outcomes regardless and want to sue. 
I support lawsuits that go after clear cases of negligence.   Remember, lawyers usually sue multiple defendants, it's not just you and your doctor. Many of you just think of jury trials, there are tons of settlements that occur and significantly add to the cost of everything (that trickles down).  Again, cases of negligence should be punished but we must do everything to prevent junk claims and excessive legal costs because it burdens the system, and the people end up paying, just like the docs.

Reimbursement is not going up the last couple yrs and is certainly outpaced by the rate of overhead increases and mandates.  FP wages have been stagnant for years.  This is specifically why more private doctors are folding into large hospital systems, they can't continue to afford to run their own practice, it's not debatable, it's happening.  This is also why hospitals have forced docs to see too many patients per day, which does decrease care and increase mistakes.  The docs are (in general) pussies compared to the hospital administrators who control them.  So, we need to lower healthcare costs and patients need to stand up with the docs to the big hospital systems pushing everything to fast for profit.

Again, why would politicians (who are predominantly lawyers) want to enact real malpractice reform?  Many receive campaign contributions from trial lawyer organizations and they come from that school.

Socialized health systems DO NOT have a legal malpractice system like ours for a reason....too expensive.

[Mons Venus]

TA don't you get it? Socialized Medicine works for members of Congress, Medicare recipients and douchebags like headgiver6. Everyone else must fend for themselves.

Hope this helps.

[drkaje]

Skip, you are obviously not directly involved in the healthcare industry like Kaje and I.

Doctors, nurses and hospitals make mistakes, of course and there is a continue struggle to lessen these.  However, medicine is complicated and not exact, there will always be mistakes and grievances.  There are also a % of people that you'll never satisfy or have horrible outcomes regardless and want to sue. 
I support lawsuits that go after clear cases of negligence.   Remember, lawyers usually sue multiple defendants, it's not just you and your doctor. Many of you just think of jury trials, there are tons of settlements that occur and significantly add to the cost of everything (that trickles down).  Again, cases of negligence should be punished but we must do everything to prevent junk claims and excessive legal costs because it burdens the system, and the people end up paying, just like the docs.

Reimbursement is not going up the last couple yrs and is certainly outpaced by the rate of overhead increases and mandates.  FP wages have been stagnant for years.  This is specifically why more private doctors are folding into large hospital systems, they can't continue to afford to run their own practice, it's not debatable, it's happening.  This is also why hospitals have forced docs to see too many patients per day, which does decrease care and increase mistakes.  The docs are (in general) pussies compared to the hospital administrators who control them.  So, we need to lower healthcare costs and patients need to stand up with the docs to the big hospital systems pushing everything to fast for profit.

Again, why would politicians (who are predominantly lawyers) want to enact real malpractice reform?  Many receive campaign contributions from trial lawyer organizations and they come from that school.

Socialized health systems DO NOT have a legal malpractice system like ours for a reason....too expensive.

Socialized medicine will lead to more insured, not necessarily better or increased care. It's as if people have a disconnect or feel insurance equals care.

One of my friends sold his family practice 10 plus years ago. Same amount of visits one year but the office made $125K less, after doing the math he sold to a hospital. The office is booked solid and cannot accept new patients. By "booked solid" I specifically mean the hospital schedules appointments up to two hours before he arrives on some days so there's never a break in case of a missed or late appointment.

[shootfighter1]

I split my time between my family practice (3 days/wk) and as the director of an employee health clinic for a federal system.  I never realized how tough it was to run a family practice and how much overhead there really was between business expenses, employees, licencing, mandates, taxes, equipment, etc.  

Additionally, the taxes taken from the company is insane.  I pay approx 38-40% taxation on the business.  So, for me to make an extra $1000, it costs the practice almost $1400.  More cost with every employee and all the taxation added on from the state, local and federal gov...including unemployment tax, BWC, and child & family services, among others.  I couldn't survive on my family practice alone.  One good thing is I schedule 15 min for most visits but 30 min for physicals and complex patients...so patients like it and there are less mistakes (plus I have a wonderful, competent staff), however, I could never make a full salary with that schedule.  Just not enough $ coming in for all the expenses.  

All of you guys arguing for more services and more taxes, please...please try to run a small business.

[drkaje]

I split my time between my family practice (3 days/wk) and as the director of an employee health clinic for a federal system.  I never realized how tough it was to run a family practice and how much overhead there really was between business expenses, employees, licencing, mandates, taxes, equipment, etc.  

Additionally, the taxes taken from the company is insane.  I pay approx 38-40% taxation on the business.  So, for me to make an extra $1000, it costs the practice almost $1400.  More cost with every employee and all the taxation added on from the state, local and federal gov...including unemployment tax, BWC, and child & family services, among others.  I couldn't survive on my family practice alone.  One good thing is I schedule 15 min for most visits but 30 min for physicals and complex patients...so patients like it and there are less mistakes (plus I have a wonderful, competent staff), however, I could never make a full salary with that schedule.  Just not enough $ coming in for all the expenses.  

All of you guys arguing for more services and more taxes, please...please try to run a small business.

I'm probably going to do medicine in a community clinic.

[Skip8282]

Skip, you are obviously not directly involved in the healthcare industry like Kaje and I.

Doctors, nurses and hospitals make mistakes, of course and there is a continue struggle to lessen these.  However, medicine is complicated and not exact, there will always be mistakes and grievances.  There are also a % of people that you'll never satisfy or have horrible outcomes regardless and want to sue. 
I support lawsuits that go after clear cases of negligence.   Remember, lawyers usually sue multiple defendants, it's not just you and your doctor. Many of you just think of jury trials, there are tons of settlements that occur and significantly add to the cost of everything (that trickles down).  Again, cases of negligence should be punished but we must do everything to prevent junk claims and excessive legal costs because it burdens the system, and the people end up paying, just like the docs.

Reimbursement is not going up the last couple yrs and is certainly outpaced by the rate of overhead increases and mandates.  FP wages have been stagnant for years.  This is specifically why more private doctors are folding into large hospital systems, they can't continue to afford to run their own practice, it's not debatable, it's happening.  This is also why hospitals have forced docs to see too many patients per day, which does decrease care and increase mistakes.  The docs are (in general) pussies compared to the hospital administrators who control them.  So, we need to lower healthcare costs and patients need to stand up with the docs to the big hospital systems pushing everything to fast for profit.

Again, why would politicians (who are predominantly lawyers) want to enact real malpractice reform?  Many receive campaign contributions from trial lawyer organizations and they come from that school.

Socialized health systems DO NOT have a legal malpractice system like ours for a reason....too expensive.

I used to work for an insurance company dealing with injured workers and I've seen first hand the abuses of insurance companies as well as billing by physicians.

Here's a tidbit for anybody out there who may not know.  It used to be in my state that if a physician performed a surgery on a person, let's say to correct a herniated disc and while performing the procedure the surgeon came across another problem, let's say another herniated disc, the doctor would fix the 2nd problem and instead of adding a fair mark-up for that extra effort, they would charge as though a WHOLE NEW SURGERY HAD BEEN PERFORMED!  It was called stacking.

And I don't even want to get started on the sheer volume of double billing that goes on.  Insurance companies actually have to pay an army of employees just to keep all of that in check.

My point remains the same.  Clean up your own profession if you want to endlessly cry about the malpractice reform.  I support malpractice reform and I think it's an aberration that people should be able to sue you for some of the nonsense.  And I want the best minds in the field, so I want you all well paid.  But, you're going to have to survive within what the market can bear, and right now healthcare is just crushing people.


But, I digress.  I'm sure you and Kaje are near the poverty level and his 3 children are surely close to starvation at this point.  Next month you'll both be down at the welfare clinic as Uncle Sam forecloses on your businesses.