Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

[timfogarty]

well..i wish it could be solved...it's a huge problem--a problem created by shoddy government and corruption--it does need to be changed but i'd be hard pressed to agree we need to do it now...

you would agree we need to do it now if you or anyone you knew had to deal with the insurance industry because of a pre-existing condition or a catastrophic illness

our economy is in shambles and we have other pressing issues.

we spend so much on health care.  any reform would save us billions and help the economy.   fewer and fewer small businesses are offering company provided medical benefits to their employees.  just think how much more competitive businesses could be if they didn't have that expense.

[The Luke]

This is the common trend in these threads...

All the frightened, misinformed right-wingers regurgitate the Pavlovian misconceptions hammered into them by right-wing radio hate speech (which is essentially mass distribution corporate propaganda).

But then someone (in this case Tim Fogarty) takes the time to patiently and dispassionately explain to those brainwashed by these corporate talking-points, what the real situation is.

Gradually, the fervent assertions and Rush-Limbaugh-arguments fizzle out, only to be replaced by self-conscious cop-outs. Just read some of these:

-"it does need to be changed but i'd be hard pressed to agree we need to do it now...our economy is in shambles and we have other pressing issues."

...straight from the desk of the Health Insurers Anti-Reform PR Commitee.

If you want health care pay for it, if not suffer. People all the time spend more on shit they don't need as opposed to taking care of themselves or their family.

...straight from the delusional racist rants of Rush Limbaugh.

hospitals and doctors don't allow people to die...

...just delusional. Then who does? Insurers who profit from such deaths? Forty five thousand Americans died last year because didn't have healthcare.

john q is one of the most far fetched movies--poor example---no insurance company could ever survive if they did that...

...actually that's exactly how health insurers survive and profit.

i'm in agreement..no one should be denied healthcare..but to change something that works fairly well right now because a certain group doesn't like it doesn't make sense...

...works fairly well for the fifty million Americans with no coverage? Or works fairly well for the one in six INSURED Americans who are denied catastrophic coverage? Medical bills are responsible for 78% of bankruptcies, and 66% of those bankrupted had FULL COVERAGE.

ok, also in agreement that insurance companies are blocking changes..but blame the politicians...democrats, republicans, conservatives and liberals alike for that--the insurance companies couldn't do it..if the lawmakers didn't allow it.

...in fact it is the propagandised public (like those arguing against reform in this thread) who allow this to happen.


This thread has only been running for a few pages and already those who were so fervently against reform are beginning to cave under the weight of reality... would any of them, I wonder, be willing to concede that if they only knew a little more about the facts they'd probably be pro-reform; pro-public option?


The Luke

PS- Tim, I salute you.

[buffdnet]

But then someone (in this case Tim Fogarty) takes the time to patiently and dispassionately explain to those brainwashed by these corporate talking-points, what the real situation is.

all parrots and faggotryism
thanks bdb for your post. your insight is invaluable

[Benny B]

Dick Cheney, George W. Bush’s vice-president: “Reagan proved deficits don’t matter.”
 

[tbombz]

This is the common trend in these threads...

All the frightened, misinformed right-wingers regurgitate the Pavlovian misconceptions hammered into them by right-wing radio hate speech (which is essentially mass distribution corporate propaganda).

But then someone (in this case Tim Fogarty) takes the time to patiently and dispassionately explain to those brainwashed by these corporate talking-points, what the real situation is.

Gradually, the fervent assertions and Rush-Limbaugh-arguments fizzle out, only to be replaced by self-conscious cop-outs. Just read some of these:


PS- Tim, I salute you.

agreed. 100%

[rockyfortune]

This is the common trend in these threads...

All the frightened, misinformed right-wingers regurgitate the Pavlovian misconceptions hammered into them by right-wing radio hate speech (which is essentially mass distribution corporate propaganda).

But then someone (in this case Tim Fogarty) takes the time to patiently and dispassionately explain to those brainwashed by these corporate talking-points, what the real situation is.

Gradually, the fervent assertions and Rush-Limbaugh-arguments fizzle out, only to be replaced by self-conscious cop-outs. Just read some of these:
 ...straight from the desk of the Health Insurers Anti-Reform PR Commitee.
 ...straight from the delusional racist rants of Rush Limbaugh.
 ...just delusional. Then who does? Insurers who profit from such deaths? Forty five thousand Americans died last year because didn't have healthcare.
 ...actually that's exactly how health insurers survive and profit.
 ...works fairly well for the fifty million Americans with no coverage? Or works fairly well for the one in six INSURED Americans who are denied catastrophic coverage? Medical bills are responsible for 78% of bankruptcies, and 66% of those bankrupted had FULL COVERAGE.
 ...in fact it is the propagandised public (like those arguing against reform in this thread) who allow this to happen.


This thread has only been running for a few pages and already those who were so fervently against reform are beginning to cave under the weight of reality... would any of them, I wonder, be willing to concede that if they only knew a little more about the facts they'd probably be pro-reform; pro-public option?


The Luke

PS- Tim, I salute you.

talk about frightened and misinformed...the way you talk you'd think hospitals are a bunch of butcher shops unwilling and unable to take care of the nations sick...45k thousand died out of 300 million americans...how many were saved even though they didn't have insurance...post those numbers..btw..i voted for nader and never voted for a republican president--talk about being misinformed.

you are in the wrong country big guy if you think health insurers have no right to profit..that's big business...

50 million uninsured? where are those numbers from...obama claimed there were 42 million..how many of those are illegal aliens who don't deserve anything from the american government...how many are those who chose not to pay for insurance and lost by gambling on never being sick...you can sit there and claim this and that but you are not sounding any more informed that anyone else on here...50 million uninsured? where are your numbers from? 45k died at the hands of insurers? where did those numbers come from?  did you post the numbers on how many uninsured people receive hospital care at the expense of local, and state and the federal government already? post those numbers...

[The Luke]

50 million uninsured? where are those numbers from...obama claimed there were 42 million..

Obama is quoting the last estimate... and the economy has had a little trouble since then.

An easier way to do this would be to tot up the number of INSURED, and subtract it from 302 million. I think you'll find that when you subtract those already insured by government programs (governement employees; soldiers and veterans; those utilising Medicare; state employees; prisoners etc) the actual number of uninsured who should have their own private coverage is closer to 1 in 4.


Here's an easier calculation:

Last year, US health insurers (collectively) posted $30 billion profit, that's a hundred dollars profit for every man woman and child in America; every minority; every illegal alien; every refugee... and that figure was quoted from an IRS report by Congressman Weiner on the foor of the Congress (and again in several media interviews).

So the average person who is AGAINST healthcare reform: a married conservative midde-class guy with two kids, (just generalising) is paying:
-$400 to healthcare insurers profits on behalf of himself and his family
-another $100 to healthcare profits on behalf of some uninsured person (who don't contribte to these profits)
-another $100 to healthcare profits on behalf of some pensioner using Medicare (who dont contribte to these profits)

...now not all of that (approx) $600 annually is payed via premiums, some of it is collected via taxes which the government then pays to the healthcare insurance industry as tax breaks and subsidies (corporate welfare).

But the really interesting part is what happens next.

Having paid out (approx) $600 directly towards the PROFITS of these inefficient, poorly-performing HMOs and insurers who provide NO SERVICE and operate with ten times the administration overhead of Medicare... our averaged anti-reform married conservative middle-class guy with two kids then digs deeper into his pocket and pays THE ACTUAL COST OF HIS FAMILY'S MEDICAL CARE and,... wait for it,... his contribution towards the care of those who receive goverment run insurance (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare).

...and this ACTUAL COST OF HIS FAMILY'S MEDICAL CARE is grossly bloated too.

It includes doctor's overheads (half of which is malpractice insurance which goes back to the insurance companies again) and the overheads of the health insurers (which is outside of the profits contribution he already paid).


So, lets look at the average family premium of $6,328 for a family.
http://healthinsurance.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=healthinsurance&cdn=health&tm=87&f=00&su=p736.8.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/2009IndividualMarketSurveyFinalReport.pdf

Seems pretty reasonable when you consider the US spends $7,421 dollars per resident, annually on healthcare.
http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358


Except that MOST of that $7,421 per capita is collected via taxes and salary levies (approx $30k for our family)... of the $6,328 per family premium (some say this is now over $11k per family) at least $600 is pure profiteering by insurers; another $2,000 is insurers administration overhead of 30%; (which should be $200 like the 3% administration cost of Medicare).... and only the $3,500 remaining goes towards the cost of insuring that family.



So, very roughly, Americans are paying $7,421 per capita for healthcare.

But $100 per capita is insurers profits.
Another $450 per capita is insurers administration cost (guesstimating from the $2k cost to out hypothetical family of four, which should be $200).


So do Americans get $6,900 worth of healthcare once you remove the cost of profits (funding the parasitic rent-seeking classes); the cost of administration (running the unnecessary insurers); ; and the cost of corruption (funding the lobbying efforts made against the general public)...?


No, I dont think so.  


The French pay roughly $3,000 dollars per capita for what is widely regarded as the very best healthcare system in the world. In 2001, when the US was in much better shape and BEFORE healthcare costs rose 250% for the average American, the WHO undertook the very biggest comparative national healthcare study... France was number one with a bullet, the US ranked 37th.

The French have the biggest "capitalist" healthcare system in Europe (the governmet run very few of their hospitals and most doctors are self-employed, with private healthcare competing for patients alongside state services and the taxpayer picking up the tab either way).

French patients have full choice of which doctor to see; patients generally only pay the initial consultation costs and are re-imbursed within the hour by swiping their medical card.

French patients pick their own surgeons and hospitals for procedures... and don't have to get approval from the government.

France has no bed shortage; and no waiting lists.



Please, guys, take the time to see what you could be gettig for half the price:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/pvd/Primer.htm

Every coutry on Earth should be copying the French and the Scandinavians when it comes to healthcare... if you think otherwise, you probably dont know what you're talking about.


The Luke

[Gino30]

so what happens to Private Health?

socialising Health is incredibly doomed to deliver....

what do you think all those 100000s of wealthy medical professionals will say about this?

its an absolute disarster

Obama needs to get over his socialist ideals.....Martin Luther King didnt sign up for this legacy......

[rockyfortune]

Obama is quoting the last estimate... and the economy has had a little trouble since then.

An easier way to do this would be to tot up the number of INSURED, and subtract it from 302 million. I think you'll find that when you subtract those already insured by government programs (governement employees; soldiers and veterans; those utilising Medicare; state employees; prisoners etc) the actual number of uninsured who should have their own private coverage is closer to 1 in 4.


Here's an easier calculation:

Last year, US health insurers (collectively) posted $30 billion profit, that's a hundred dollars profit for every man woman and child in America; every minority; every illegal alien; every refugee... and that figure was quoted from an IRS report by Congressman Weiner on the foor of the Congress (and again in several media interviews).

So the average person who is AGAINST healthcare reform: a married conservative midde-class guy with two kids, (just generalising) is paying:
-$400 to healthcare insurers profits on behalf of himself and his family
-another $100 to healthcare profits on behalf of some uninsured person (who don't contribte to these profits)
-another $100 to healthcare profits on behalf of some pensioner using Medicare (who dont contribte to these profits)

...now not all of that (approx) $600 annually is payed via premiums, some of it is collected via taxes which the government then pays to the healthcare insurance industry as tax breaks and subsidies (corporate welfare).

But the really interesting part is what happens next.

Having paid out (approx) $600 directly towards the PROFITS of these inefficient, poorly-performing HMOs and insurers who provide NO SERVICE and operate with ten times the administration overhead of Medicare... our averaged anti-reform married conservative middle-class guy with two kids then digs deeper into his pocket and pays THE ACTUAL COST OF HIS FAMILY'S MEDICAL CARE and,... wait for it,... his contribution towards the care of those who receive goverment run insurance (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare).

...and this ACTUAL COST OF HIS FAMILY'S MEDICAL CARE is grossly bloated too.

It includes doctor's overheads (half of which is malpractice insurance which goes back to the insurance companies again) and the overheads of the health insurers (which is outside of the profits contribution he already paid).


So, lets look at the average family premium of $6,328 for a family.
http://healthinsurance.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=healthinsurance&cdn=health&tm=87&f=00&su=p736.8.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/2009IndividualMarketSurveyFinalReport.pdf

Seems pretty reasonable when you consider the US spends $7,421 dollars per resident, annually on healthcare.
http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358


Except that MOST of that $7,421 per capita is collected via taxes and salary levies (approx $30k for our family)... of the $6,328 per family premium (some say this is now over $11k per family) at least $600 is pure profiteering by insurers; another $2,000 is insurers administration overhead of 30%; (which should be $200 like the 3% administration cost of Medicare).... and only the $3,500 remaining goes towards the cost of insuring that family.



So, very roughly, Americans are paying $7,421 per capita for healthcare.

But $100 per capita is insurers profits.
Another $450 per capita is insurers administration cost (guesstimating from the $2k cost to out hypothetical family of four, which should be $200).


So do Americans get $6,900 worth of healthcare once you remove the cost of profits (funding the parasitic rent-seeking classes); the cost of administration (running the unnecessary insurers); ; and the cost of corruption (funding the lobbying efforts made against the general public)...?


No, I dont think so.  


The French pay roughly $3,000 dollars per capita for what is widely regarded as the very best healthcare system in the world. In 2001, when the US was in much better shape and BEFORE healthcare costs rose 250% for the average American, the WHO undertook the very biggest comparative national healthcare study... France was number one with a bullet, the US ranked 37th.

The French have the biggest "capitalist" healthcare system in Europe (the governmet run very few of their hospitals and most doctors are self-employed, with private healthcare competing for patients alongside state services and the taxpayer picking up the tab either way).

French patients have full choice of which doctor to see; patients generally only pay the initial consultation costs and are re-imbursed within the hour by swiping their medical card.

French patients pick their own surgeons and hospitals for procedures... and don't have to get approval from the government.

France has no bed shortage; and no waiting lists.



Please, guys, take the time to see what you could be gettig for half the price:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/pvd/Primer.htm

Every coutry on Earth should be copying the French and the Scandinavians when it comes to healthcare... if you think otherwise, you probably dont know what you're talking about.


The Luke

Every coutry on Earth should be copying the French and the Scandinavians when it comes to healthcare... if you think otherwise, you probably dont know what you're talking




nice statement...you sound just like the elitist scumbag you purport to dislike.  Yep..and everyone is running to france and finland for healthcare...what a douche.

[The Luke]

nice statement...you sound just like the elitist scumbag you purport to dislike.  Yep..and everyone is running to france and finland for healthcare...what a douche.

...are poor uninsured people travelling to America for treatment?

No one is arguing that American healthcare isn't great for billionaires... it's just that poor and middle-class Americans are the ones defending this shit system on behalf of the bilionaire class. That's retarded.


For example, rockyfortune, assuming you have quality private insurance yourself, how would you cope if you were one of those poor bastards denied coverage under conditions of catastropic illness?

Don't dismiss it, it happens to 15 to 17% of INSURED people.


The Luke