Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine

[Matt C]

yes, they do run medicare rather well, using up only a few percentage for administration cost, compared to up to 30% for for profit insurance companies

why is medicare ok for seniors, but not for everyone else?

Yeah, because it's not like those profits are the driving force behind research and development for new drugs and medical technology or anything.    They just exist magically somehow!

[The Luke]

Yeah, because it's not like those profits are the driving force behind research and development for new drugs and medical technology or anything.    They just exist magically somehow!

MattC, you think healthcare insurance companies pay for medical research and drug development...?

WTF? Are you high?


The Luke

[tbombz]

will universal healthcare work? yes.

does our current system work? no.

[The Luke]

will universal healthcare work? yes.

does our current system work? no.

Succinct, quality post.

You're making some very good points in this thread tbombz. Why aren't you propagandised and deluded like yor fellow Americans?


The Luke

[Coach is Back!]

Dude,

Aside from the fact that you never answered my original question, (instead quoting a list of pseudo-capitalist delusions and justifying your reasoning with blatant falsehoods) but now you are making an argument that is so totally out of touch it's frightening.

Haven't you seen that video footage of hospital staff dumping badly injured homeless alzheimer patients outside homeless shelters dressed only in hospital gowns... in the snow... in the middle of the night?


Let's introduce a few facts here... MOST bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical bills; and MOST of those going bankrupt due to medical bills HAVE health insurance.


So having morons like Joe here spout off with such certainty with only propaganda screamed by Rush Limbaugh on behalf of theiving insurance companies for reference... is a bit rich.


Facts are facts... there is at least a 15% denial rate by US health insurers in cases of catastrophic health problems (the only situation people buy insurance for)... and that denial is simply a random denial hoping the patient dies before recouping the money owed.

So, apart from billionaires and politicians (and those on Medicare), NO ONE paying private health insurance is fully covered.


So Joe, you only have 85% coverage... like eveyone else who is so scared of fair and equitable "socialised" healthcare. Think about that.


The Luke

I thought I did answer your question. But you need to understand one thing...nothing is "free". I'm willing to pay for quality health care, you take away a doctors right to make a living based on capitolism you're going to find more and more doctors looking for another line of work, less high school and college students will not be choosing to become doctors and the list goes waaay beyond just what you described. Look at the quality of health care at lets say the VA hospitals here in the US or even europe or canada compared to here. Are you willing to give up quality? I'm not.

[Coach is Back!]

Succinct, quality post.

You're making some very good points in this thread tbombz. Why aren't you propagandised and deluded like yor fellow Americans?


The Luke

Because he's a kid who doesn't have to support himself to understand what is really going on. I can understand where you're coming from because you have grown up to what you think is best. I have not nor do I want to.

[che]

. Look at the quality of health care at lets say the VA hospitals here in the US or even europe or canada compared to here. Are you willing to give up quality? I'm not.

Have you ever been in Europe ,Coach ?

[timfogarty]

take away a doctors right to make a living based on capitolism you're going to find more and more doctors looking for another line of work, less high school and college students will not be choosing to become doctors and the list goes waaay beyond just what you described. Look at the quality of health care at lets say the VA hospitals here in the US or even europe or canada compared to here. Are you willing to give up quality? I'm not.

there is no evidence for any of this.  Doctors are making decent salaries in Europe and Canada.

We have a sever shortage of nurses in this country, but that has nothing to do with socialized medicine.

In this country, no one is trying to nationalize hospitals or force doctors to become government employees.  However, many doctors in this country do choose to work for the VA or for county run health centers, thereby being government employees.  My ex (the one who I put through his residency, then dumped me on my ass, but I'm not bitter *) chooses to work for the county of Los Angeles.  He makes six figures by August, only has to work 40 hours a week, has his malpractice insurance paid for by the county, and receives all the benefits of a full time employee, including medical, dental, sick leave, vacation pay, and 403b.  Doctors in private practice don't get any of those things.

* (in fact, we're best friends, and talk many times a day)

[The Showstoppa]

I honestly fear that with the US govt's track history it is more likely to resemble the VA system than anything in europe, canada, etc...  and having had quite a bit of experience with the VA...NO THANKS !

[timfogarty]

I honestly fear that with the US govt's track history it is more likely to resemble the VA system than anything in europe, canada, etc...  and having had quite a bit of experience with the VA...NO THANKS !

We're not asking for a system like the VA, socialized medicine where the government owns the hospitals, and doctors are government employees.   We're asking for a public option, where the government takes the role of an insurance company.  This could be simply an expansion of Medicare.   Medicare is a single payer system for people over 65.  If having such an option is not acceptable for you, why is it good enough for your parents or grandparents?

[timfogarty]

Tim, do you live in Los Angeles yet you remain liberal and unable to connect the racial dots?

I've answered this before.  I do live in Los Angeles.  And I flatly reject your racist view of the world.

[Option D]

if the us system sucks...then why do you have arab sheiks flying to the mayo clinic for medical treatment...stop the bs with the socialized medicine crap...

You aren't educated are you...the US medical system is good to MILLIONAIRES
you fucking moron..why do you say shit like that. Dude have you heard from some of the REPUBLICANS on this board and some of their insurance nightmares..

that is an idiotic statement...stupid ass

[chaos]

You aren't educated are you...the US medical system is good to MILLIONAIRES
you fucking moron..why do you say shit like that. Dude have you heard from some of the REPUBLICANS on this board and some of their insurance nightmares..

that is an idiotic statement...stupid ass

big_malboski slapping the shit out of random retards for sport.

[The Showstoppa]

We're not asking for a system like the VA, socialized medicine where the government owns the hospitals, and doctors are government employees.   We're asking for a public option, where the government takes the role of an insurance company.  This could be simply an expansion of Medicare.   Medicare is a single payer system for people over 65.  If having such an option is not acceptable for you, why is it good enough for your parents or grandparents?

But I am thinking down the road.  If the govt is allowed to "compete" with insurance companies, they will run under the premise that they don't have to make a profit, so they will be at a huge advantage over the private companies.....who will one by one go under and thus eventurally leaving us with only the govt run option.  I think we would see what private companies offer greatly diminish in an attempt to just stay afloat.   And medicare is not good enough for my parents.  It needs to be improved.

I would much prefer to just see stronger regulation on the current insurance companies, ie: no prexisting conditions, etc...., a cap on malpractice suits which drive up doctors insurance which in turn drives up what we are charged and reign in hospitals where waste is rampant in regards to paying CEO's, and other higher up managerial types, too much.  Those are just off the top of my head, but I think there are far better ways to improve our current system.

[Option D]

anyone who opposes single payer healthcare for america is either

A)misinformed about the effectiveness of other countries single payer healthcare

b)misinformed about the effectiveness of our current system

c)misinformed about how our countries healthcare system would be set-up and funded if we shifted to single payer..

b)healthcare industry lobby or shareholder




the current system we have in place is horribly wasteful, we spend more per person here than alot of countries do that give their citizens totally free healthcare for everything from surgery, check ups, medications. we could increase coverage, improve covergae, and reduce costs simultaneously if the health insurance lobby would be obliviated.

BOOM BITCHES

[timfogarty]

Yeah, because it's not like those profits are the driving force behind research and development for new drugs and medical technology or anything.

No, the profits the insurance companies make are not going into R&D.   Insurance companies are administrators.  They take money from many people in the form of insurance premiums, put them into a big pool, then pay the medical costs of the few who get sick.   Anything left over they get to keep.   They try to maximize this amount by doing their best to deny or delay the claims of those who have catastrophic illnesses such as cancer or organ failure.   The problem is that's the main reason you pay for medical insurance, to receive care for the catastrophic illnesses.

Whether the profits the pharmaceutical companies make are justified or not is a separate issue than the one at hand.

[buffdnet]

many doctors in this country do choose to work for the VA or for county run health centers

that's more misguided liberal bullshit. the va is hurting big time for doctors. reason being they pay for
shit and those that are willing to work at the clinic where my primary care is, they don't want
them to work in their own practice and the va. the va docs don't have nurses to do their paper work
they do it all. nurses actually sorta kinda do nursing.

my daughter is a nurse at the dayton hospital. i see doctors and get testing done there.
be kinda hard to throw bullshit liberal spewage my way and expect to get away from it.

oh btw, why is your great redeemer doesn't have the balls to quit smoking.
but claims to be 95% cured. damn that 5%. oh this is the guy that has the cure
for our perceived health care problems. and jobs.
right

[timfogarty]

I would much prefer to just see stronger regulation on the current insurance companies, ie: no prexisting conditions, etc....,

yes, I would too.  but the problem is that individuals would not have incentive to pay for insurance until the catastrophic illness occurs.   Insurance only works with large pools of healthy people subsidizing those who get sick.  so then you say have a mandate, that everyone must buy insurance.  but how do you mandate that people buy a product from a private company?  especially when you don't regulate the price.   what do you do to people who cannot afford those prices?  if the government subsidizes them, then you're subsidizing the profits of a private company.  why should our tax dollars go to the shareholders of private companies?  so we put the poor into a non-profit insurance company, otherwise known as a public option.

a cap on malpractice suits which drive up doctors insurance which in turn drives up what we are charged

malpractice insurance and claims are less than 2% of our medical costs.  any caps might bring it down to 1% if we're lucky.

and reign in hospitals where waste is rampant in regards to paying CEO's, and other higher up managerial types, too much. 

but but but that's anti-capitalistic

[buffdnet]

Insurance companies are administrators.  They take money from many people in the form of insurance premiums, put them into a big pool, then pay the medical costs of the few who get sick.   Anything left over they get to keep.   They try to maximize this amount by doing their best to deny or delay the claims of those who have catastrophic illnesses such as cancer or organ failure.   The problem is that's the main reason you pay for medical insurance, to receive care for the catastrophic illnesses.
Whether the profits the pharmaceutical companies make are justified or not is a separate issue than the one at hand.

people pay them money first of all.
deny claims? yes you must duh or try. ever turned in car or homeowners claim
delay on purpose. prove that. you can't
everything you spew contains outright bogus information

any profits a company legally makes should never be questioned or sought out in order to punish.
and remember any legislation that comes out won't go into effect for years, will probally face legal
battles but will tax the fuck out of the coach.
got ammo

[The Showstoppa]

yes, I would too.  but the problem is that individuals would not have incentive to pay for insurance until the catastrophic illness occurs.   Insurance only works with large pools of healthy people subsidizing those who get sick.  so then you say have a mandate, that everyone must buy insurance.  but how do you mandate that people buy a product from a private company?  especially when you don't regulate the price.   what do you do to people who cannot afford those prices?  if the government subsidizes them, then you're subsidizing the profits of a private company.  why should our tax dollars go to the shareholders of private companies?  so we put the poor into a non-profit insurance company, otherwise known as a public option.

So how about just expanding medicare?  I heard a brief disussion about that on the radio, but didn't catch enough specifics.

[/quote]
malpractice insurance and claims are less than 2% of our medical costs.  any caps might bring it down to 1% if we're lucky.
[/quote]

Then why do states like WV have a hard time getting obgyn's for example?  I've always heard it was because they couldnt' afford malpractice insurance.

[/quote]
but but but that's anti-capitalistic
[/quote]

I have no problem with it.  Pure capitalism doesn't really exist in the US anyway, so I see no problem with it.

[The Luke]

Are you willing to give up quality? I'm not.

Willing to give up quality? 'Cause that's exactly what's happee in Europe... (sigh).


You have a 15% chance of having your entire net worth wiped out should you suffer catastrophic illness.

Roll a dice... if it comes up snake eye: you're one of those 50 million Americans (1 in 6) with no insurance... Roll that dice again... if it comes up snake eye this time you're one of the INSURED Americans (1 in 6) who will be denied coverage... bankruptcy and/or homelessness follow.


Sorry to offend dude, but you don't understand enough to have an opinion on this subject.

You don't keep a private fire brigade on retainer... should your house catch fire would you negotiate a "free-market  solution" with whichever neighbor had the longest garden hose...? Or call the "socialised" local county fire department?

You don't have a private security force on retainer... if you were a victim of a crime, would you enlist a private investigator and negotiate a price in the open market with Blackwater mercenaries...? Or would you call the "socialised" local county police department?

Don't you support the (taxpayer-funded government-run socialised) troops?


Seriously...
-do you only drive on privately-owned toll roads?
-do you only walk on privately-owned tolled pavements?
-do you have your own well? Or do you use municpal water supplies?
-do you receive mail?
-do you run your own courts?
-do you run your own, non-socialised government?
-do you test your own food and water?
-do you refuse to vote in "socialised" elections?

Joe, you're already more of a "socialist" than you unerstand.


The only freedom you stand to lose under socialised medicine, is the freedom to be so gladly fleeced by corporate insurers in the hopes of being at their mercy should the worst happen.

The freedom to be more propagndised and brainwashed than a pro-Christmas turkey.

The freedom to be a fool.



The Luke

[chaos]

Willing to give up quality? 'Cause that's exactly what's happee in Europe... (sigh).


You have a 15% chance of having your entire net worth wiped out should you suffer catastrophic illness.

Roll a dice... if it comes up snake eye: you're one of those 50 million Americans (1 in 6) with no insurance... Roll that dice again... if it comes up snake eye this time you're one of the INSURED Americans (1 in 6) who will be denied coverage... bankruptcy and/or homelessness follow.


Sorry to offend dude, but you don't understand enough to have an opinion on this subject.

You don't keep a private fire brigade on retainer... should your house catch fire would you negotiate a "free-market  solution" with whichever neighbor had the longest garden hose...? Or call the "socialised" local county fire department?

You don't have a private security force on retainer... if you were a victim of a crime, would you enlist a private investigator and negotiate a price in the open market with Blackwater mercenaries...? Or would you call the "socialised" local county police department?

Don't you support the (taxpayer-funded government-run socialised) troops?


Seriously...
-do you only drive on privately-owned toll roads?
-do you only walk on privately-owned tolled pavements?
-do you have your own well? Or do you use municpal water supplies?
-do you receive mail?
-do you run your own courts?
-do you run your own, non-socialised government?
-do you test your own food and water?
-do you refuse to vote in "socialised" elections?

Joe, you're already more of a "socialist" than you unerstand.


The only freedom you stand to lose under socialised medicine, is the freedom to be so gladly fleeced by corporate insurers in the hopes of being at their mercy should the worst happen.

The freedom to be more propagndised and brainwashed than a pro-Christmas turkey.

The freedom to be a fool.



The Luke

Don't you live with mommy and daddy in Ireland

[jesusbod]

yes, they do run medicare rather well, using up only a few percentage for administration cost, compared to up to 30% for for profit insurance companies

why is medicare ok for seniors, but not for everyone else?

Problem is, they want everyone to get on Medicaid which is not run very well, and most doctor's don't accept it. So, they will mandate doctor's to accept it and mandate the amount Doctors make. So, that will in turn make it into a socialized medicine.

[rockyfortune]

You aren't educated are you...the US medical system is good to MILLIONAIRES
you fucking moron..why do you say shit like that. Dude have you heard from some of the REPUBLICANS on this board and some of their insurance nightmares..

that is an idiotic statement...stupid ass

so you are saying the mayo clinic only treats millionaires? they treat no one other than people who can prove they are millionaires?  how fucking stupid do you sound?  you are also telling me that people who aren't millionaires suffer? you are kidding right? my parents weren't millionaires and we always had good healthcare..dental care,,,eyeglasses..etc..hey..i was even born in a hospital you fucking pinhead...who sounds like a stupid fuck now...

oh yes..that's right..only democrats..and poor people have insurance nightmares...laughable..

[The Luke]

Problem is, they want everyone to get on Medicaid which is not run very well, and most doctor's don't accept it. So, they will mandate doctor's to accept it and mandate the amount Doctors make. So, that will in turn make it into a socialized medicine.

Yep.

That's what's happened in the rest of the developed world.

It's not so bad... doctors drive Porsches instead of Lamborghinis; but they don't have to pay: student debt; malpractice insurance; etc etc

However, everyone is covered (less crime, less suffering, less stress), and when your ELECTIVE NON-SERIOUS surgery is bumped back two weeks so the hospital can do a transplant... at least you can console yourself that things could be worse: you could be an American happily paying a grand a month for coverage who just got denied surgery for his dodgey knee and can't change providers 'cos now you have  pre-existing condition.

I'd rather pay thosand bucks a year in taxes.

Let the doctors drive Porsches, so the poor can sleep at night.



The Luke