Do Atheists believe.....

[MCWAY]

Nope and nope:

Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.


And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation?  So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?

Because "cluck and duck" is Luke's specialty!!

You and STella provided chapter and verse, carving Luke's boneheaded claims apart like a Thanksgiving turkey.

Thanks for picking up the slack, as I've been preoccupied (for reasons you and STella already know).

[Butterbean]

Thanks for picking up the slack, as I've been preoccupied (for reasons you and STella already know).

And thanks loco for taking the time to thoroughly explain

[loco]

And thanks loco for taking the time to thoroughly explain

No, thank you!   

[The Luke]

Okay guys, sorry, my bad... guess I was just misinformed.


So, let me get this straight...

Christians believe in:
-incarnation, but not re-incarnation
-angels; seraphs; cherubim; archangels; jinn and demons, but not ghosts... except for the Holy Ghost
-both God and Satan, but Satan is not A god... despite his ability to do pretty much everything God can do
-an Angel of Death... who similarly is not a god, despite being able to lay waste entire races of people
-a host of angels numbering in the millions... despite the Bible containing less than a dozen manifest angels
-a talking, walking snake/serpent
-a prophet who ascended into heaven on a fiery chariot but must return to earth to do, so he can go (back) to heaven


...that's some MONOtheism you guys got going.


The Luke   

[loco]

Okay guys, sorry, my bad... guess I was just misinformed.


So, let me get this straight...

Christians believe in:
-incarnation, but not re-incarnation
-angels; seraphs; cherubim; archangels; jinn and demons, but not ghosts... except for the Holy Ghost
-both God and Satan, but Satan is not A god... despite his ability to do pretty much everything God can do
-an Angel of Death... who similarly is not a god, despite being able to lay waste entire races of people
-a host of angels numbering in the millions... despite the Bible containing less than a dozen manifest angels
-a talking, walking snake/serpent
-a prophet who ascended into heaven on a fiery chariot but must return to earth to do, so he can go (back) to heaven


...that's some MONOtheism you guys got going.


The Luke   

No.

And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation?  So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?

[The Luke]

No.

And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation?  So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?

I don't understand her "points" (plural) as you put it... all I saw was a (single) misconception regarding whether Elijah could be said to have reincarnated if he and John the Baptist were the same person, if Elijah had never died.

Is that what you want me to address?


The Luke

[loco]

Reincarnation (literally, "to be made flesh again"):  believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after death of the body, comes back to Earth in another body.


Monotheism:  the belief that only one God exists.

[The Luke]

Well, Loco, let's split that hair if that's what you really want to do...


If John the Baptist and Elijah are actually the same person (as Jesus inferred and the other Bible references state explicitly), then we can examine the actual mechanism:

-Elijah ascends into heaven without dying, on a fiery chariot (sigh)
-Hellenized (Greek speaking) Jews come to believe Elijah must return to earth in order to die
-Elijah returns as John the Baptist (and dies)

So how could this occur?

At the transfiguration (sigh) the disciples involved clearly recognised Elijah as Elijah... meaning John the Baptist and Elijah had different appearances. But that's assuming those disciples had actually seen John before his death.

So... either John the Baptist was Elijah in a new body... or John the Baptist was the same physical person as Elijah.

But John the Baptist had an ordinary physical birth (albeit divinely announced).


That leaves reincarnation... John the Baptist was the reincarnation of John the Baptist.

But if you insist upon Elijah having never died; and further insist upon death as a fundamental criteria for reincarnation we have only two alternate options:

-Elijah and John the Baptist are the same physical person
Elijah was taken bodily into heaven as a living physical being, where he continued his physical life without ever dying as some sort of immortal: still eating; shitting; farting and pissing for hundreds of years... but never dying. Then God shrinks Elijah down to a single cell zygote and teleports or implants him into Zachariah's wife Whatshername (St Anne?), where he then grows to maturity and is born a second time without ever dying.

...or...

-Elijah and John the Baptist are two different physical persons
Elijah was taken bodily into heaven as a living physical being, where he continued his physical life without ever dying as some sort of immortal: still eating; shitting; farting and pissing for hundreds of years... but never dying. Then God extracted the soul from Elijah while keeping his physical body alive, then places that soul into the blank body of the newborn John the Baptist. John/Elijah grows to adulthood on Earth, is decapitated and then returns to heaven where God is keeping his still undying body warm for him.


...you're right, either one of those scenarios is much more logical and believable than something as stupid and outlandish as reincarnation.

What was I thinking?

Don't bother to explain it for me... don't bother to think it through for yourself... just ASSERT without explanation that I am wrong, that's more than enough of a reply.


The Luke

[loco]

John the Baptist and Elijah are not actually the same person.  Jesus never said that John the Baptist and Elijah were literally the same person.

Reincarnation is not in the Bible.  You have to die in order to reincarnate.   Elijah never died.

[The Luke]

Don't bother to explain it for me... don't bother to think it through for yourself... just ASSERT without explanation that I am wrong, that's more than enough of a reply.

...predictive or what?


The Luke

[loco]

This thread is proof that you have no idea what Reincarnation is and what Monotheism is, and that you have no clue what is and what isn't in the Bible.

[The Luke]

This thread is proof that you have no idea what Reincarnation is and what Monotheism is, and that you have no clue what is and what isn't in the Bible.

Then explain it to me... that is, if you actually understand it yourself.

What is the difference between Elijah returning to earth as John the Baptist and ordinary everyday run-of-the-mill reincarnation?

Why isn't Jesus considered a reincarnation of God? After all, Yahweh is god... the Ark of the Covenant is Yahweh incarnate... and Jesus is also God incarnate. Seeing as the Ark came first, by definition Jesus must be a re-incarnation of god.


Detailed explanations please... but feel free to resort to simple dismissal if you don't understand this bullshit either.


The Luke

[loco]

Then explain it to me... that is, if you actually understand it yourself.

What is the difference between Elijah returning to earth as John the Baptist and ordinary everyday run-of-the-mill reincarnation?

Why isn't Jesus considered a reincarnation of God? After all, Yahweh is god... the Ark of the Covenant is Yahweh incarnate... and Jesus is also God incarnate. Seeing as the Ark came first, by definition Jesus must be a re-incarnation of god.


Detailed explanations please... but feel free to resort to simple dismissal if you don't understand this bullshit either.


The Luke

I've already done that.  See above multiple posts by STella and I, along with definitions of each and everything. 

[The Luke]

I've already done that.  See above multiple posts by STella and I, along with definitions of each and everything. 

But you believe Elijah and John the Baptist are/were the same person?


So if it's not reincarnation, what do you call it? Trans-corporeal-soul-displacement? Retrocarnation? Intracarnation?


Another question, seeing as Jesus actually died, when he comes back to "Rapture" all the Palin-voters... will THAT be reincarnation?

You see I'm still not getting my head around the concept. Is it that you don't believe in reincarnation (despite it being in the New Testament) or that you don't believe it has happened YET? But that Jesus will be reincarnated for the End Times?

Also, if the only criteria is that someone die then "be made flesh" again (didn't see any mention of a second birth in the definition you are insisting upon) does that mean that the risen Jesus is, technically, a reincarnation of Jesus?

Sorry, I realise that's 4 questions:
1-Are John and Elijah the same person, as Jesus inferred?
2-If John isn't a reincarnation of Elijah, but still actually Elijah, exactly what is he? What do you call that?
3-Seeing as Jesus actually died last time, will the Second Coming count as a reincarnation?
4-Was the risen version of Jesus technically a reincarnation? (new body after death)


...all explanations accepted.

But single word answers and dismissals can be used if you don't know yourself.


The Luke

[Necrosis]

This thread is proof that you have no idea what Reincarnation is and what Monotheism is, and that you have no clue what is and what isn't in the Bible.

LMAO, you guys get to me sometimes. Seriously, no matter how often you are rebutted you spew the same shit (no offense loco, i like you ). Seriously, we are operating in reality and you are operating in the realm of faith and failed logic.

like the whole morality argument, if you say god is the only reason people are you moral then the default if god does not exist is that raping, incest, murder are all fine and god is the only thing preventing you from doing so. But you guys will still argue and argue and argue, cherry pick, strawman that ho and so on. I realize it's futile arguing with fundamentalist christians, stella tried to say she is opened minded yet couldn't fathom god not existing , but i find it fun.

why dont you try living yourlife without christ, look at reality and say i dont know sometimes, really examine the bible with no prejudice and think, is killing of children good? jesus will accept you if you decide its not the path for you. He will forgive.

[loco]

LMAO, you guys get to me sometimes. Seriously, no matter how often you are rebutted you spew the same shit (no offense loco, i like you ). Seriously, we are operating in reality and you are operating in the realm of faith and failed logic.

like the whole morality argument, if you say god is the only reason people are you moral then the default if god does not exist is that raping, incest, murder are all fine and god is the only thing preventing you from doing so. But you guys will still argue and argue and argue, cherry pick, strawman that ho and so on. I realize it's futile arguing with fundamentalist christians, stella tried to say she is opened minded yet couldn't fathom god not existing , but i find it fun.

why dont you try living yourlife without christ, look at reality and say i dont know sometimes, really examine the bible with no prejudice and think, is killing of children good? jesus will accept you if you decide its not the path for you. He will forgive.

I like you too Necrosis (no homo), but what does your post have to do with my reply to Luke?  I don't believe in Reincarnation, but unlike Luke, I do know its definition.  I know the definition of Monotheism as well.  I also read the Bible cover to cover, and I know reincarnation is not in it.  Luke pulls this stuff out of his butt.

[loco]

But you believe Elijah and John the Baptist are/were the same person?


So if it's not reincarnation, what do you call it? Trans-corporeal-soul-displacement? Retrocarnation? Intracarnation?


Another question, seeing as Jesus actually died, when he comes back to "Rapture" all the Palin-voters... will THAT be reincarnation?

You see I'm still not getting my head around the concept. Is it that you don't believe in reincarnation (despite it being in the New Testament) or that you don't believe it has happened YET? But that Jesus will be reincarnated for the End Times?

Also, if the only criteria is that someone die then "be made flesh" again (didn't see any mention of a second birth in the definition you are insisting upon) does that mean that the risen Jesus is, technically, a reincarnation of Jesus?

Sorry, I realise that's 4 questions:
1-Are John and Elijah the same person, as Jesus inferred?
2-If John isn't a reincarnation of Elijah, but still actually Elijah, exactly what is he? What do you call that?
3-Seeing as Jesus actually died last time, will the Second Coming count as a reincarnation?
4-Was the risen version of Jesus technically a reincarnation? (new body after death)


...all explanations accepted.

But single word answers and dismissals can be used if you don't know yourself.


The Luke

Are you even reading my posts, which are very short btw?  I already said No, they are not the same person.  The Bible does not say that they are the same person.  Reincarnation is not in the Bible, and you have to learn what Reincarnation means.

[Deicide]

Can't believe people are actually arguing about this all...

[Necrosis]

I like you too Necrosis (no homo), but what does your post have to do with my reply to Luke?  I don't believe in Reincarnation, but unlike Luke, I do know its definition.  I know the definition of Monotheism as well.  I also read the Bible cover to cover, and I know reincarnation is not in it.  Luke pulls this stuff out of his butt.

monotheism is a bit iffy in christianity, the trinity, the stuff luke posted, depends on how you define god as well. For most definitions i would say it fails.

[Necrosis]

Can't believe people are actually arguing about this all...

really? i enjoy the debate actually, shit cant be much worse then the 18000 things you have posted on.

most of the arguments on this site are ridiculous.

[YngiweRhoads]

Can't believe people are actually arguing about this all...

I agree. I try not to involve myself in any bible interpretation debates as I feel it doesn't address the larger issues of the source(s) and validity of the book in the first place.  Debating the contents seems incongruous to me.

[YngiweRhoads]

most of the arguments on this site are ridiculous.

That's debatable.

[loco]

Ever wonder why people say stuff like "Help yourself and God will help you.  It's in the Bible"  or "Spare the rod, spoil the child.  It's in the Bible" or "Don't swim with a full stomach.  It's in the Bible." ?

Well, it all gets started with people like Luke who has never read the Bible spreading misinformation like he has in this thread, while others who have never read the Bible either read this stuff, believe it and spread Luke's misinformation.

I just set the record straight since I have read the Bible and continue to read it.  That's all.

[The Luke]

Are you even reading my posts, which are very short btw?  I already said No, they are not the same person.  The Bible does not say that they are the same person.  Reincarnation is not in the Bible, and you have to learn what Reincarnation means.

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Back this bullshit up a little...!

The Bible is full of reincarnation.


Yahweh is god... Yahweh is incarnated in a burning bush (1); Yahweh is then incarnated in the Ark of the Covenant (2); but Jesus is also an incarnation of Yahweh (3); Jesus dies and returns in a different body (no one recognises him) (4); and Jesus will be incarnated again in the End Times (5).

That's five reincarnations just for the main character in this poisonous compendium of lies.

Add another one for Elijah/Baptist... (or not if you disagree with Jesus and the Angel of the Lord)

Add two more for Lucifer... who was an archangel; then incarnated as a serpent; then incarnated as Satan to tempt Jesus.

That's eight.


Now read Revelations: it clearly states that after the Apocalypse the dead will rise and be judged (by reincarnated zombie Jesus) at the Judgement Day. So we can add to our list of eight examples, roughly another hundred billion people (total human population since the advent of Homo Sapiens, not sure whether to include Neanderthals or Flores Man, or the Boskopps variants)... and that's assuming the Rapture of Palin-voters comes quick, because human population is growing exponentially.


No reincarnation in the Bible... you mean other than the approx 100,000,000,008 references to reincarnation?


Someone explain this shit to me... please.


The Luke

[loco]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Back this bullshit up a little...!

The Bible is full of reincarnation.


Yahweh is god... Yahweh is incarnated in a burning bush (1); Yahweh is then incarnated in the Ark of the Covenant (2); but Jesus is also an incarnation of Yahweh (3); Jesus dies and returns in a different body (no one recognises him) (4); and Jesus will be incarnated again in the End Times (5).

That's five reincarnations just for the main character in this poisonous compendium of lies.

Add another one for Elijah/Baptist... (or not if you disagree with Jesus and the Angel of the Lord)

Add two more for Lucifer... who was an archangel; then incarnated as a serpent; then incarnated as Satan to tempt Jesus.

That's eight.


Now read Revelations: it clearly states that after the Apocalypse the dead will rise and be judged (by reincarnated zombie Jesus) at the Judgement Day. So we can add to our list of eight examples, roughly another hundred billion people (total human population since the advent of Homo Sapiens, not sure whether to include Neanderthals or Flores Man, or the Boskopps variants)... and that's assuming the Rapture of Palin-voters comes quick, because human population is growing exponentially.


No reincarnation in the Bible... you mean other than the approx 100,000,000,008 references to reincarnation?


Someone explain this shit to me... please.


The Luke

Stop embarrassing yourself!

Incarnation which literally means embodied in flesh or taking on flesh, refers to the conception and birth of a sentient creature (generally a human) who is the material manifestation of an entity, god or force whose original nature is immaterial.

Reincarnation (literally, "to be made flesh again"):  believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after death of the body, comes back to Earth in another body.

Neither Jesus nor the angel said that John the Baptist and Elijah were the same person.

Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.