Author Topic: Do Atheists believe.....  (Read 8408 times)

Butterbean

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Do Atheists believe.....
« on: March 15, 2010, 12:14:19 PM »
In anything spiritual?  Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?

R

outby43

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2010, 01:21:57 PM »
no

big L dawg

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2010, 02:29:40 PM »
In anything spiritual?  Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?



do Christians all believe the exact same thing regarding things of this nature?...Angels,demons,ghosts,aliens,etc...If so I feel sorry for them.....I don't see how you can make a blanket question such as this....I'm sure some do and some don't with regards to any of the things mentioned...
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Butterbean

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2010, 02:45:51 PM »
Thanks windsor.


1) do Christians all believe the exact same thing regarding things of this nature?...Angels,demons,ghosts,aliens,etc...If so I feel sorry for them.....2) I don't see how you can make a blanket question such as this....I'm sure some do and some don't with regards to any of the things mentioned...

1) No.

2) I didn't mean to upset anyone w/this question, I was just curious.

So are you saying that you do believe in some things of a spiritual nature or no?  If so, what kinds of things? 

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Necrosis

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2010, 09:45:50 PM »
In anything spiritual?  Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?



i personally do not. Why would i believe in something with no evidence?

YngiweRhoads

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 08:27:55 AM »
There are different types of belief, so I would say rather that I have no knowledge of any spiritual entities. Therefore, I cannot hold a true belief in spiritual entities until such time as objective evidence is proved to be valid.



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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 11:45:08 PM »
In anything spiritual?  Angels/demons/"ghosts" of dead people, etc?



No two atheists are identical. By definition an atheist is someone who does not believe in gods but that leaves a lot of room for other things. For my part I do not believe in anything beyond the material but I have met atheists who do.

(I am not upset) but just as there are myriad different Christians that believe myriad different things so too are there similar such atheists. Still, I think that materialism and atheism generally DO go hand in hand.
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big L dawg

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2010, 06:43:11 AM »
No two atheists are identical. By definition an atheist is someone who does not believe in gods but that leaves a lot of room for other things. For my part I do not believe in anything beyond the material but I have met atheists who do.

(I am not upset) but just as there are myriad different Christians that believe myriad different things so too are there similar such atheists. Still, I think that materialism and atheism generally DO go hand in hand.

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Butterbean

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2010, 06:55:43 AM »
Thanks YR and D for your answers!
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The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 06:44:07 AM »
I think the really strange thing is what God himself/itself believes in according to the Bible...


When Adam and Eve are exiled from the Garden of Eden some form of bestial seraphs are sent to guard and bar the gates of Eden least they return.

In the Old Testament you have Yahweh (God the Father) recognising the other Middle Eastern gods; Baal etc etc... Yahweh never claims to be the only god, merely to be the one and only god of the Israelites, while still conceding the existence of other gods and acknowledging them as actually being gods.

Then you have the angels and the seraphim and the Archangels... all immortal and all imbued with terrible destructive powers.

When Moses meets Yahweh, Moses assumes him to be a jinn (a genie; genii or djinn) and even attempts to capture this bush-burning jinn by asking his name (if you know the name of a jinn; you can capture/control it)... yet Yahweh plays along with this, tacitly classifying himself as a jinn and even explaining which sort of jinn he is (ie: what sort of box will hold him).

In the New Testament you have the evil demonic spirits which possess and animate humans and animals ("I am Legion; for we are many...").

Jesus recognises Satan as some sort of godlike being... even conceding his ability to alter fate and reality at a whim.

Then you have Elijah... who reincarnated (presumably as John the Baptist) despite never dying (he was taken into heaven), then appears as a spectral ghost.

...oh yeah, can't forget the Holy Spirit: 'cause if you deny him that's the one and only sin which can never be forgiven.




So, in total, that's...
-the seraphs guarding the gates of Eden
-Yahweh in the form of a thundercloud/rain god
-Baal
-Dagon
-Moloch
-the god of the Canninites; the god of the Philistines; the gods of Egypt; and various Middle Eastern gods
-the angels
-the seraphim
-the archangels
-the host of angels
-the Angel of Death
-Yahweh in the form of an imprisoned jinn (Ark of the Covenant)
-Legion and the other demonic spirits
-Satan
-Elijah
-the Holy Spirit
-Jesus the Messiah
-the Risen Jesus

...phew, that's some monotheism you guys got there.


The Luke

Butterbean

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 08:15:41 AM »
I think the really strange thing is what God himself/itself believes in according to the Bible...


When Adam and Eve are exiled from the Garden of Eden some form of bestial seraphs are sent to guard and bar the gates of Eden least they return.



Then you have the angels and the seraphim and the Archangels... all immortal and all imbued with terrible destructive powers.



In the New Testament you have the evil demonic spirits which possess and animate humans and animals ("I am Legion; for we are many...").



Yeah, the bible states that God created the Angels, some of which fell w/satan and became demons.  Not sure what you are saying the conflict is here ???





In the Old Testament you have Yahweh (God the Father) recognising the other Middle Eastern gods; Baal etc etc... Yahweh never claims to be the only god, merely to be the one and only god of the Israelites, while still conceding the existence of other gods and acknowledging them as actually being gods.



Luke, do you realize that anything can be considered a god to someone?  For instance the golden calf was worshipped as a god....crack can be the crackhead's god ...doesn't mean it had divine powers....  Yahweh only acknowledged the existence of other gods pertaining to how people worshipped ungodly things.  He did not acknowledge that these gods were real, divine beings.









Jesus recognises Satan as some sort of godlike being... even conceding his ability to alter fate and reality at a whim.

Then you have Elijah... who reincarnated



Can you please provide scriptures for these statements?  Thanks!
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The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 08:32:17 AM »
Yeah, the bible states that God created the Angels, some of which fell w/satan and became demons.  Not sure what you are saying the conflict is here ???

...does it actually say that?

I think the Milton's "Paradise Lost" meme has leaked into common Christian belief.


Luke, do you realize that anything can be considered a god to someone?  For instance the golden calf was worshipped as a god....crack can be the crackhead's god ...doesn't mean it had divine powers....  Yahweh only acknowledged the existence of other gods pertaining to how people worshipped ungodly things.  He did not acknowledge that these gods were real, divine beings.

...absolute hogwash.

During the reign of the Judges for example, the rulers of Israel (the Judges) openly worshipped Baal because they were living beyond the scope of Yahweh's presence (the Ark)... read about it yourself: some of the Judges in the Book of Judges have names like Jerubaal ("Glory of Baal").

Yahweh started as a localised storm god... and the archaeological record shows he was worshipped with both human sacrifice and in conjunction with his wife/consort Astarte.

...and let's not even get started on the flipside of your assertion that a god isn't necessarily divine just because someone believes in it; if you don't see how that reflects on your own faith I doubt I can help you.


Can you please provide scriptures for these statements?  Thanks!

Jesus Christ Stella... (sigh)... I'm working from the memory of sermons I heard before I was eight (when I stopped going to church) and I seem to know much more about Christianity than you do.

Yet you constantly point out strangely misguided non-sequitur assertions, assuming I have no understanding or even basic reading comprehension... sorry, but it's not atheists who don't understand religion, it's believers... (no offence intended).


If YOU don't know the story of Jesus being tempted in the wilderness; or Jesus rising into heaven to meet Moses and Elijah... maybe you should take the time to read the New Testament...?


The Luke

loco

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 09:33:10 AM »

During the reign of the Judges for example, the rulers of Israel (the Judges) openly worshipped Baal because they were living beyond the scope of Yahweh's presence (the Ark)...

The Luke

Luke,
The Judges did not worship Baal or anything other than God.  

Judges 2:10-19 (New International Version)

 10 After that whole generation had been gathered to their fathers, another generation grew up, who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel. 11 Then the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD and served the Baals. 12 They forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They provoked the LORD to anger 13 because they forsook him and served Baal and the Ashtoreths. 14 In his anger against Israel the LORD handed them over to raiders who plundered them. He sold them to their enemies all around, whom they were no longer able to resist. 15 Whenever Israel went out to fight, the hand of the LORD was against them to defeat them, just as he had sworn to them. They were in great distress.

 16 Then the LORD raised up judges, who saved them out of the hands of these raiders. 17 Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. Unlike their fathers, they quickly turned from the way in which their fathers had walked, the way of obedience to the LORD's commands. 18 Whenever the LORD raised up a judge for them, he was with the judge and saved them out of the hands of their enemies as long as the judge lived; for the LORD had compassion on them as they groaned under those who oppressed and afflicted them. 19 But when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers, following other gods and serving and worshiping them. They refused to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.

some of the Judges in the Book of Judges have names like Jerubaal ("Glory of Baal").

The Luke

Jerub-Baal does not mean "Glory of Baal."  Gideon, a Judge, demolished one of Baal's altars, and for this they called him Jerub-Baal.

Judges 6:28-32
 28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!

 29 They asked each other, "Who did this?"
      When they carefully investigated, they were told, "Gideon son of Joash did it."

 30 The men of the town demanded of Joash, "Bring out your son. He must die, because he has broken down Baal's altar and cut down the Asherah pole beside it."

 31 But Joash replied to the hostile crowd around him, "Are you going to plead Baal's cause? Are you trying to save him? Whoever fights for him shall be put to death by morning! If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar." 32 So that day they called Gideon "Jerub-Baal, [a] " saying, "Let Baal contend with him," because he broke down Baal's altar.

Footnotes:

   1. Judges 6:32 Jerub-Baal means let Baal contend.

loco

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 09:37:21 AM »
So, in total, that's...
-the seraphs guarding the gates of Eden
-Yahweh in the form of a thundercloud/rain god
-Baal
-Dagon
-Moloch
-the god of the Canninites; the god of the Philistines; the gods of Egypt; and various Middle Eastern gods
-the angels
-the seraphim
-the archangels
-the host of angels
-the Angel of Death
-Yahweh in the form of an imprisoned jinn (Ark of the Covenant)
-Legion and the other demonic spirits
-Satan
-Elijah
-the Holy Spirit
-Jesus the Messiah
-the Risen Jesus

...phew, that's some monotheism you guys got there.


The Luke

What's your point, The Luke?  

So the Bible says that spiritual beings do exist.   How is this Monotheism?  In the Bible it is strictly forbidden to worship any of these spiritual beings, other than God.  Jesus is God, the Son.

BTW, you attempt to make your list seem long by listing angels six times.     ;D

Butterbean

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 11:49:52 AM »
I'm working from the memory of sermons I heard before I was eight (when I stopped going to church)


This explains everything!

Luke you seem like a nice person but you are pulling stuff out of your heiny (no offense)! ;D

When you are ready to debate off of scripture, then we can have a conversation. 





R

The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 06:20:10 PM »
So the Bible says that spiritual beings do exist.   How is this Monotheism?

...you missed my point completely.

The one and only true god asserts the existence of dozens of species of immortal god-like spiritual beings (numbering in the millions, by the way) which every Christian must accept as an article of faith, while simultaneously claiming to be monotheists... how many pagan religions have millions upon millions of demi-gods and angels in their pantheons?

What kind of monotheism has a million plus god-like spirits?

Aside from that, your point about Judges such as Jerubaal is well taken... I should have been more specific.

The passage you are referring to is most probably a Mishna... an apologetic story added later to reconcile an inconsistency. It is well known from the archaeological record that during the time of the Judges the Jews were openly worshipping both the native gods of Canaan and the gods of their foreign neighbours. State sanctioned temples to Baal were built during this time.

Besides, Gideon/Jerubbaal had to be rehabilitated as he would have been a practitioner of Edomic Judaism... which (seemingly) included Astarte (Yahweh's wife/consort). Better to make him the champion of the Jerusalem-based monotheistic Judaism which later won out over the Edomites.


This explains everything!

Luke you seem like a nice person but you are pulling stuff out of your heiny (no offense)! ;D

When you are ready to debate off of scripture, then we can have a conversation. 

You've never heard of the Transfiguration...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Or the Temptation of Jesus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Jesus

Or Jesus' reference to the reincarnation of Elijah...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah

...there are actual references for Jesus assertion that John the Baptist was actually Elijah reincarnated:

"And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come." ...referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 11:14
    
"Then the disciples asked him, 'Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
He said in reply, "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."
...again referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 17:10-17:13

"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord." ...referring to the as yet unborn John the Baptist... Luke 1:16


This is a bad habit of yours Stella... you admonish atheists for making up facts and references that are actually commonly known; and commonly understood.

It's like an atheist criticising the Ten Commandments only to be shouted down by a Christian claiming there are no such commandments in the Bible.

What kind of Christian hasn't read the Gospels, but then accuses those who refer to them of fabrication?


This is why no one wants to debate you fundies... you don't even know the Bible as well as the atheists. But I suppose that's unfair, if you understood it as well as the atheists do... you'd all be atheists too.


The Luke

MCWAY

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2010, 09:25:44 AM »
...you missed my point completely.

The one and only true god asserts the existence of dozens of species of immortal god-like spiritual beings (numbering in the millions, by the way) which every Christian must accept as an article of faith, while simultaneously claiming to be monotheists... how many pagan religions have millions upon millions of demi-gods and angels in their pantheons?

What kind of monotheism has a million plus god-like spirits?

Aside from that, your point about Judges such as Jerubaal is well taken... I should have been more specific.

The passage you are referring to is most probably a Mishna... an apologetic story added later to reconcile an inconsistency. It is well known from the archaeological record that during the time of the Judges the Jews were openly worshipping both the native gods of Canaan and the gods of their foreign neighbours. State sanctioned temples to Baal were built during this time.

Besides, Gideon/Jerubbaal had to be rehabilitated as he would have been a practitioner of Edomic Judaism... which (seemingly) included Astarte (Yahweh's wife/consort). Better to make him the champion of the Jerusalem-based monotheistic Judaism which later won out over the Edomites.


You've never heard of the Transfiguration...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Or the Temptation of Jesus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Jesus

Or Jesus' reference to the reincarnation of Elijah...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah

...there are actual references for Jesus assertion that John the Baptist was actually Elijah reincarnated:

"And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come." ...referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 11:14
    
"Then the disciples asked him, 'Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
He said in reply, "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."
...again referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 17:10-17:13

"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord." ...referring to the as yet unborn John the Baptist... Luke 1:16


This is a bad habit of yours Stella... you admonish atheists for making up facts and references that are actually commonly known; and commonly understood.

It's like an atheist criticising the Ten Commandments only to be shouted down by a Christian claiming there are no such commandments in the Bible.

What kind of Christian hasn't read the Gospels, but then accuses those who refer to them of fabrication?


This is why no one wants to debate you fundies... you don't even know the Bible as well as the atheists. But I suppose that's unfair, if you understood it as well as the atheists do... you'd all be atheists too.


The Luke

The last one who needs to criticize anybody of lack of Bible knowledge is YOU, Luke. I've lost count of how many times, you've been taken to the woodshed, after making stupid statements about Scripture, which you couldn't back and were blatantly false.

I've asked you the most simplistic and basic questions about your assertions, and you've dodged them without fail, time and time again. A prime example was your daft claims about the Gospel of Matthew. As I recall, you were asked by me (and Loco) TO PROVE that Matthew cited the birth of Christ on Dec. 25. that there were exactly three wise men, and that they found Christ at His birth.

You disappered for weeks and, when you returned, ducked the DIRECT questions put to you, for equally as long.

Therefore, your silly attempt to slight STella makes you look even more ridiculous than usual (and that takes some doing).

Add to that, Loco just chopped up your claims about the Judges. So yet again, your criticizing him, STella, or anyone else about lack of Bible knowledge is laughable, to say the least.


big L dawg

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2010, 11:02:31 AM »
I'll be praying for you Luke...
DAWG

Butterbean

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2010, 06:17:28 AM »
...you missed my point completely.

The one and only true god asserts the existence of dozens of species of immortal god-like spiritual beings (numbering in the millions, by the way) which every Christian must accept as an article of faith, while simultaneously claiming to be monotheists... how many pagan religions have millions upon millions of demi-gods and angels in their pantheons?

What kind of monotheism has a million plus god-like spirits?

Aside from that, your point about Judges such as Jerubaal is well taken... I should have been more specific.

The passage you are referring to is most probably a Mishna... an apologetic story added later to reconcile an inconsistency. It is well known from the archaeological record that during the time of the Judges the Jews were openly worshipping both the native gods of Canaan and the gods of their foreign neighbours. State sanctioned temples to Baal were built during this time.

Besides, Gideon/Jerubbaal had to be rehabilitated as he would have been a practitioner of Edomic Judaism... which (seemingly) included Astarte (Yahweh's wife/consort). Better to make him the champion of the Jerusalem-based monotheistic Judaism which later won out over the Edomites.


You've never heard of the Transfiguration...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Or the Temptation of Jesus...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Jesus

Or Jesus' reference to the reincarnation of Elijah...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah

...there are actual references for Jesus assertion that John the Baptist was actually Elijah reincarnated:

"And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is to come." ...referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 11:14
    
"Then the disciples asked him, 'Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?'
He said in reply, "Elijah will indeed come and restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did to him whatever they pleased. So also will the Son of Man suffer at their hands."
...again referring to John the Baptist... Matthew 17:10-17:13

"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers toward children and the disobedient to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord." ...referring to the as yet unborn John the Baptist... Luke 1:16


This is a bad habit of yours Stella... you admonish atheists for making up facts and references that are actually commonly known; and commonly understood.

It's like an atheist criticising the Ten Commandments only to be shouted down by a Christian claiming there are no such commandments in the Bible.

What kind of Christian hasn't read the Gospels, but then accuses those who refer to them of fabrication?


This is why no one wants to debate you fundies... you don't even know the Bible as well as the atheists. But I suppose that's unfair, if you understood it as well as the atheists do... you'd all be atheists too.


The Luke


Luke, I'm not sure but I think you're the only atheist on here I've ever thought pretty much makes stuff up so I don't think it could really be called a habit.  Seems like other atheists here will cite scripture and argue for/against their point stemming from their interpretations of it....I guess that way makes more sense to me then trying to "debate" using memories you have as an 8 year old etc.  In any case, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings...if I did, I apologize!



Luke, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation.  John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, not Elijah

Also, Elijah never died.  2 Kings 2:11-12
Doesn't someone need to die to be "reincarnated?"

And, at the Mount of Transfiguration, the disciples recognized Elijah as Elijah.
Are you saying that Elijah turned into John and back into Elijah again  ???

Before the tribulation Elijah may be one of the 2 witnesses that appear and preach the return of Christ.  If so, he is still Elijah then also.

In addition, in John 1:21:  (Jews are asking John who he is)  
They asked him, "Then who are you?  Are you Elijah?  
He said, "I am not."  
"Are you the Prophet?"
"No."

R

The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2010, 07:03:36 AM »

Luke, I'm not sure but I think you're the only atheist I've ever admonished for making stuff up so I don't think it could really be called a "habit" of mine.  Seems like other atheists here will cite scripture and argue for/against their point stemming from their interpretations of it....I guess that way makes more sense to me then trying to "debate" using memories you have as an 8 year old etc.



Luke, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation.  John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, not Elijah

Also, Elijah never died.  2 Kings 2:11-12
Doesn't someone need to die to be "reincarnated?"

And, at the Mount of Transfiguration, the disciples recognized Elijah as Elijah.
Are you saying that Elijah turned into John and back into Elijah again  ???

Before the tribulation Elijah may be one of the 2 witnesses that appear and preach the return of Christ.  If so, he is still Elijah then also.

In addition, in John 1:21:  (Jews are asking John who he is)  
They asked him, "Then who are you?  Are you Elijah?  
He said, "I am not."  
"Are you the Prophet?"
"No."



Read my post... or read the Bible for yourself.

It's right there straight from Jeebus' mouth: Matthew 17:10-17:13 "...but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him..."

The Jews believed Elijah had to return to the Earth to die... as he had ascended into heaven on a fiery chariot whilst still alive. Even Jesus didn't ascend into heaven without dying first.


But if you're uncomfortable with the idea that Christianity involves reincarnation... well then I suppose you can simply dismiss Jesus' assertion that John the Baptist was Elijah; and then dismiss the assertion of the announcing angel to Zachariah that John the Baptist would be Elijah.

After all, most Christians are very practiced at dismissing the more unpleasant aspects of Judeo-Christian beliefs... I suppose adding reincarnation to the list of selectively dismissed concepts doesn't make a difference.

But, honestly, I don't see the need... the majority of Christians believed in the universal reincarnation of all souls right up until the Renaissance: the Cathars; the Bogomils; the Old Believers; the Gnostics etc etc all assumed in a cycle of reincarnation, till the soul died without sin (assumedly after reincarnation as a Perfecti).


The Luke 

loco

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2010, 08:07:27 AM »
The Luke,

We all agree that when it comes to the Bible and to Christianity, you just make stuff up as you go and provide zero citation to any sources whatsoever. 

About the Bible, you either have no clue or simply spew misinformation on purpose.

That's a pity.  Aside from your bogus Bible posts and your belief in Bigfoot, you seem like a very intelligent guy and I do enjoy how you own SAMSON on the politics board!    :)

The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2010, 08:16:47 AM »
The Luke,

We all agree that when it comes to the Bible and to Christianity, you just make stuff up as you go and provide zero citation to any sources whatsoever. 

About the Bible, you either have no clue or simply spew misinformation on purpose.

That's a pity.  Aside from your bogus Bible posts and your belief in Bigfoot, you seem like a very intelligent guy and I do enjoy how you own SAMSON on the politics board!    :)

I provided quotes in this instance.... but as usual, no one ever cites a source that refutes my claims; they simply assert that I'm making things up.

I think this is because of a lack of education.


When I claim the Cathars; Bogomils etc and many other Christians sects believed in reincarnation... that somehow makes me a liar; no need to do any research on the Cathars or the Bogomils. Luke is a liar.

When I claim that even Jesus referred to reincarnation... then I'm somehow making things up.

If I provide the specific scriptural passages and even cite them here in this thread... then somehow I'm simply spewing misinformation.


I know this thread is titled "Do Atheists believe..." but isn't it interesting that an atheist can't even convince you guys of what is in a book you all supposedly believe in yet seemingly haven't read.


The Luke 

loco

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2010, 08:47:51 AM »
I provided quotes in this instance.... but as usual, no one ever cites a source that refutes my claims; they simply assert that I'm making things up.

I think this is because of a lack of education.


When I claim the Cathars; Bogomils etc and many other Christians sects believed in reincarnation... that somehow makes me a liar; no need to do any research on the Cathars or the Bogomils. Luke is a liar.

When I claim that even Jesus referred to reincarnation... then I'm somehow making things up.

If I provide the specific scriptural passages and even cite them here in this thread... then somehow I'm simply spewing misinformation.


I know this thread is titled "Do Atheists believe..." but isn't it interesting that an atheist can't even convince you guys of what is in a book you all supposedly believe in yet seemingly haven't read.


The Luke  

You claim STella doesn't know her Bible, but she owned you on your reincarnation claim.  "Reincarnation" is not in the Bible.  And your single, out of context Jesus quote neither mentions "Reincarnation" nor does it say that John the Baptist was literally Elijah.

Actually, you saying that John the Baptist was Elijah "reincarnated" from Matthew 17:11-13 shows how very little you know about the Bible.  Jesus was not saying that John the Baptist and Elijah were literally the same person.  What Jesus was saying is that the prophecy of Elijah coming back was referring to somebody else, John the Baptist, who would come in the same spirit and power of Elijah, and that John the Baptist was whom the prophecy was referring to when it said Elijah would come back:

Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Never says that he is Elijah.

And that's just to add to what STella already posted:

Luke, I'm not sure but I think you're the only atheist on here I've ever thought pretty much makes stuff up so I don't think it could really be called a habit.  Seems like other atheists here will cite scripture and argue for/against their point stemming from their interpretations of it....I guess that way makes more sense to me then trying to "debate" using memories you have as an 8 year old etc.  In any case, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings...if I did, I apologize!



Luke, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation.  John the Baptist was a "type" of Elijah, not Elijah

Also, Elijah never died.  2 Kings 2:11-12
Doesn't someone need to die to be "reincarnated?"

And, at the Mount of Transfiguration, the disciples recognized Elijah as Elijah.
Are you saying that Elijah turned into John and back into Elijah again  ???

Before the tribulation Elijah may be one of the 2 witnesses that appear and preach the return of Christ.  If so, he is still Elijah then also.

In addition, in John 1:21:  (Jews are asking John who he is)  
They asked him, "Then who are you?  Are you Elijah?  
He said, "I am not."  
"Are you the Prophet?"
"No."



The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2010, 09:07:33 AM »
Jesus didn't say "someone like Elijah" he said Elijah... so did the angel speaking on behalf of God himself.


Are you calling Jesus a liar?

Are you calling the archangel a liar?

Are you calling God himself a liar?


Epic cognitive dissonance.


The Luke

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Re: Do Atheists believe.....
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2010, 09:28:30 AM »
Jesus didn't say "someone like Elijah" he said Elijah... so did the angel speaking on behalf of God himself.


Are you calling Jesus a liar?

Are you calling the archangel a liar?

Are you calling God himself a liar?


Epic cognitive dissonance.


The Luke

Nope and nope:

Luke 1:17
17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.


And why have you not addressed any of STella's points on reincarnation?  So do you or do you not have to die first in order to reincarnate?