Author Topic: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?  (Read 19171 times)

Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2010, 12:34:16 PM »
I knew Roberts was going to be a disaster when he used the term "mythical little guy"

Obama is going to pick someone who can oppose Roberts and who will also have the ability to convince other justices to do so

The following is from then-Sen. Barack Obama's floor statement explaining why he would vote against confirming Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts (September 2005):

. . . [T]he decision with respect to Judge Roberts' nomination has not been an easy one for me to make. As some of you know, I have not only argued cases before appellate courts but for 10 years was a member of the University of Chicago Law School faculty and taught courses in constitutional law. Part of the culture of the University of Chicago Law School faculty is to maintain a sense of collegiality between those people who hold different views. What engenders respect is not the particular outcome that a legal scholar arrives at but, rather, the intellectual rigor and honesty with which he or she arrives at a decision.

Given that background, I am sorely tempted to vote for Judge Roberts based on my study of his resume, his conduct during the hearings, and a conversation I had with him yesterday afternoon. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Judge Roberts is qualified to sit on the highest court in the land. Moreover, he seems to have the comportment and the temperament that makes for a good judge. He is humble, he is personally decent, and he appears to be respectful of different points of view.

It is absolutely clear to me that Judge Roberts truly loves the law. He couldn't have achieved his excellent record as an advocate before the Supreme Court without that passion for the law, and it became apparent to me in our conversation that he does, in fact, deeply respect the basic precepts that go into deciding 95% of the cases that come before the federal court -- adherence to precedence, a certain modesty in reading statutes and constitutional text, a respect for procedural regularity, and an impartiality in presiding over the adversarial system. All of these characteristics make me want to vote for Judge Roberts.

The problem I face -- a problem that has been voiced by some of my other colleagues, both those who are voting for Mr. Roberts and those who are voting against Mr. Roberts -- is that while adherence to legal precedent and rules of statutory or constitutional construction will dispose of 95% of the cases that come before a court, so that both a Scalia and a Ginsburg will arrive at the same place most of the time on those 95% of the cases -- what matters on the Supreme Court is those 5% of cases that are truly difficult.

In those cases, adherence to precedent and rules of construction and interpretation will only get you through the 25th mile of the marathon. That last mile can only be determined on the basis of one's deepest values, one's core concerns, one's broader perspectives on how the world works, and the depth and breadth of one's empathy.

In those 5% of hard cases, the constitutional text will not be directly on point. The language of the statute will not be perfectly clear. Legal process alone will not lead you to a rule of decision. In those circumstances, your decisions about whether affirmative action is an appropriate response to the history of discrimination in this country, or whether a general right of privacy encompasses a more specific right of women to control their reproductive decisions, or whether the Commerce Clause empowers Congress to speak on those issues of broad national concern that may be only tangentially related to what is easily defined as interstate commerce, whether a person who is disabled has the right to be accommodated so they can work alongside those who are nondisabled -- in those difficult cases, the critical ingredient is supplied by what is in the judge's heart.

I talked to Judge Roberts about this. Judge Roberts confessed that, unlike maybe professional politicians, it is not easy for him to talk about his values and his deeper feelings. That is not how he is trained. He did say he doesn't like bullies and has always viewed the law as a way of evening out the playing field between the strong and the weak.

I was impressed with that statement because I view the law in much the same way. The problem I had is that when I examined Judge Roberts' record and history of public service, it is my personal estimation that he has far more often used his formidable skills on behalf of the strong in opposition to the weak. In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.I want to take Judge Roberts at his word that he doesn't like bullies and he sees the law and the court as a means of evening the playing field between the strong and the weak. But given the gravity of the position to which he will undoubtedly ascend and the gravity of the decisions in which he will undoubtedly participate during his tenure on the court, I ultimately have to give more weight to his deeds and the overarching political philosophy that he appears to have shared with those in power than to the assuring words that he provided me in our meeting.

The bottom line is this: I will be voting against John Roberts' nomination. . . .

Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page A21

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2010, 12:38:53 PM »
[T]he decision with respect to Judge Roberts' nomination has not been an easy one for me to make. As some of you know, I have not only argued cases before appellate courts but for 10 years was a member of the University of Chicago Law School faculty and taught courses in constitutional law. Part of the culture of the University of Chicago Law School faculty is to maintain a sense of collegiality between those people who hold different views. What engenders respect is not the particular outcome that a legal scholar arrives at but, rather, the intellectual rigor and honesty with which he or she arrives at a decision.

________________________ ________________________ ______________

What cases did Obama argue before Appellate Courts? 

Surely there must be a record of this. 

Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2010, 12:41:35 PM »
Funny considering the insults the left hurled at Meyers, Bork, Thomas, etc.   

I don't see the correlation

Meyers was criticized by right and left for her profound lack of intellectual prowess

Bork (before my time) was criticized for his strident right wing history

I don't recall anyone opposing Thomas based on his looks and he's turned out to be nothing but a rubber stamp for Scalia


Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2010, 12:42:24 PM »
[T]he decision with respect to Judge Roberts' nomination has not been an easy one for me to make. As some of you know, I have not only argued cases before appellate courts but for 10 years was a member of the University of Chicago Law School faculty and taught courses in constitutional law. Part of the culture of the University of Chicago Law School faculty is to maintain a sense of collegiality between those people who hold different views. What engenders respect is not the particular outcome that a legal scholar arrives at but, rather, the intellectual rigor and honesty with which he or she arrives at a decision.

________________________ ________________________ ______________

What cases did Obama argue before Appellate Courts? 

Surely there must be a record of this. 

if you care go find it

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2010, 12:42:50 PM »
Thomas is a great SC Justice and a true example for people from poverty.  

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2010, 12:43:47 PM »




I was impressed with that statement because I view the law in much the same way. The problem I had is that when I examined Judge Roberts' record and history of public service, it is my personal estimation that he has far more often used his formidable skills on behalf of the strong in opposition to the weak. In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.


How stupid is that?  He did what the White House told him to do.   ::)  Terrible logic.  

Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2010, 12:44:45 PM »
Thomas is a great SC Justice and a true example for people from poverty.  

how is he great?

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2010, 12:47:12 PM »
How stupid is that?  He did what the White House told him to do.   ::)  Terrible logic.  

it's terrible logic to judge him by his actions rather than his words?


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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2010, 12:47:14 PM »
Obama does not believe in the rule of law or the constitution. 




Dos Equis

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2010, 12:50:41 PM »
it's terrible logic to judge him by his actions rather than his words?



Do you even understand what you posted??  The Soliciter General represents the White House, not himself.  So whatever positions Roberts took were not his own.  That's like criticizing a public defender for representing criminals.   ::) 

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2010, 12:55:47 PM »
what does her looks have to do with her ability to do the job

it's comments like this that show how truly shallow you are as a human being



lol.   ::)

Quote

btw - anyone notice how Stupak always has that glazed over, brain dead looks that many fundies also have?


Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2010, 02:56:13 PM »
Do you even understand what you posted??  The Soliciter General represents the White House, not himself.  So whatever positions Roberts took were not his own.  That's like criticizing a public defender for representing criminals.   ::)  

it would be more like criticizing a mafia lawyer for defending career criminals

no one becomes a Solicitor General unless they are in full agreement with the politics of the President who appoints them so they are representing not only the point of view of the president but their own point of view as well

therefore it makes perfect sense to judge him by those actions because they represent his point of view

Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2010, 02:57:43 PM »
lol.   ::)
 

fair enough but I never used it as a reason for qualification or disqualification for a job

you can find plenty more posts of me criticizing Stupak for his words and deeds

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2010, 02:59:57 PM »
 ::)  ::)  

GMAFB.  That is one of the most presigious positions a lawyer can hold and no one turns that position down.  

Straw - let me ask you this - I have a case next month where i represent a concrete contractor who is owed about 50k.  I am suing a developer hard on his luck who cant pay.  The guy is a minority who started the development company and is not probably going to go bankrupt because of my case.  

Should the judge feel bad for the developer based on his situation and lot in life?  Should the judge show "empathy" or simply apply the facts of the case to the common law breach of contract precedent?

Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2010, 03:02:48 PM »
::)  ::)  

GMAFB.  That is one of the most presigious positions a lawyer can hold and no one turns that position down.  

Straw - let me ask you this - I have a case next month where i represent a concrete contractor who is owed about 50k.  I am suing a developer hard on his luck who cant pay.  The guy is a minority who started the development company and is not probably going to go bankrupt because of my case.  

Should the judge feel bad for the developer based on his situation and lot in life?  Should the judge show "empathy" or simply apply the facts of the case to the common law breach of contract precedent?


GMFB - does the President offer the job to anyone who doesn't share his political philopshy?

Does Bush give the job a left wing liberal and does Obama give it to a NeoCon?

of course not

they pick people who share their point of view

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2010, 03:07:53 PM »
So?  How is that person going to kmnow every case that comes before the court before qwhen he/she accepts the position? 

Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2010, 03:10:56 PM »
::)  ::)  

GMAFB.  That is one of the most presigious positions a lawyer can hold and no one turns that position down.  

Straw - let me ask you this - I have a case next month where i represent a concrete contractor who is owed about 50k.  I am suing a developer hard on his luck who cant pay.  The guy is a minority who started the development company and is not probably going to go bankrupt because of my case.  

Should the judge feel bad for the developer based on his situation and lot in life?  Should the judge show "empathy" or simply apply the facts of the case to the common law breach of contract precedent?


you know the answer to your own question and you also know your simple mundane case is not a Supreme Court case in which, as Obama wrote:  

while adherence to legal precedent and rules of statutory or constitutional construction will dispose of 95% of the cases that come before a court, so that both a Scalia and a Ginsburg will arrive at the same place most of the time on those 95% of the cases -- what matters on the Supreme Court is those 5% of cases that are truly difficult.

In those cases, adherence to precedent and rules of construction and interpretation will only get you through the 25th mile of the marathon. That last mile can only be determined on the basis of one's deepest values, one's core concerns, one's broader perspectives on how the world works, and the depth and breadth of one's empathy.


Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2010, 03:14:12 PM »
So?  How is that person going to kmnow every case that comes before the court before qwhen he/she accepts the position? 

stopy playing dumb (that's Beach Bums gig)

he doesn't have to know every case - all he has to do is be in philosophical agreement with the President

The POTUS doesn't pick anyone for these jobs who is not already in lockstep with him on all issues


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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2010, 03:15:39 PM »
And?  Every president does that?  So far I like Roberts and Alito and think they are the only things Bush got right in general. 

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2010, 03:18:08 PM »
And?  Every president does that?  So far I like Roberts and Alito and think they are the only things Bush got right in general. 

clearly Alito and Roberts share the Bush/Neocon point  of view which is why is perfectly reasonable to judge the person by their actions (in the case of Roberts in his role as SG).   

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2010, 03:18:54 PM »
Fine, different strokes for different folks. 


Dos Equis

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2010, 03:22:44 PM »
it would be more like criticizing a mafia lawyer for defending career criminals

no one becomes a Solicitor General unless they are in full agreement with the politics of the President who appoints them so they are representing not only the point of view of the president but their own point of view as well

therefore it makes perfect sense to judge him by those actions because they represent his point of view

Went right over your head. 

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2010, 03:26:18 PM »
fair enough but I never used it as a reason for qualification or disqualification for a job

you can find plenty more posts of me criticizing Stupak for his words and deeds

lol.  Comical!  lol. You talked about the physical appearance of "many" religious folks, not just Stupak.  But to quote a paranoid anti-religious extremist: ::) 
 

Quote
what does her looks have to do with her ability to do the job

it's comments like this that show how truly shallow you are as a human being


 

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2010, 03:28:31 PM »
lol.  Comical!  lol. You talked about the physical appearance of "many" religious folks, not just Stupak.  But to quote a paranoid anti-religious extremist: ::) 
 

bullshit

show me the quotes

and with Stupak it was only one statement and not used as a reason why he should have his job


Straw Man

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Re: Obama and the Supreme Court: The next big brawl?
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2010, 03:29:21 PM »
Went right over your head. 

hardly - you just don't understand the obvious argument