found out another good friend is NOT a CHRISTIAN!!!!

[tbombz]

For the impotent scientists


So it basically says - there was nothing before a Big Bang because there was no time.

lol

if there ever was a time with no time, there there would have never been any time at all.

existence implies eternity, and that can only be supernatural

[io856]

IF it were a complete true people wouldn't kill another people. It's much more complicated no?

You are sort of supporting the atheistic argument... 

[io856]

time is infinite

which is pretty cool imo 

[tbombz]

time is infinite

which is pretty cool imo  

great

your one step ahead of steven hawking and the rest of the scientists who believe in the big bang theory as the creation of space, time, and matter.

steven hawking : "to ask what was before the big bang is to ask what is north of the north pole"



does that make sense?

the big bang theory does make sense, it makes perfect sense   BUT the idea that a massive force explosion happened with no cause and "in" a totally non existent "place"... makes ZERO sense

[lovemonkey]

Let's see:

Spanish inquisition(1478 - 1834): hundreds killed over a period of 356 years

Crusades(1095 - 1291): thousands killed over a period of 200 years


Modern day atheists:

Mao Zedong (1958 - 1960):  43 million murdered
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.

Joseph Stalin (1937 -1938): 1.2 million murdered
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002

Pol Pot (1975 -1979): 1.7 million murdered
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.

Not gonna go into a lengthy argument about those happenings but one fact I find interesting is that over half of the Waffen SS were confirmed christians. A majority of the russian people in the 20th century were orthodox christians. Hitler and Stalin may have given the orders but religious people had no trouble whatsoever obeying them.

[YngiweRhoads]

BUT the idea that a massive force explosion happened with no cause and "in" a totally non existent "place"... makes ZERO sense

There is empirical evidence of uncaused events. Why should the Big Bang be any different? Assuming the current model is correct?

[theonlyone]

lol

if there ever was a time with no time, there there would have never been any time at all.

existence implies eternity, and that can only be supernatural

tbombz
Time is just an idea as been said. You think you have time to live up to your dreams or plans but God takes ya. You wanna make God laugh, share your plans with him.
tbombs how many times you said finite and infinite words through the thread lol Give five

[tbombz]

There is empirical evidence of uncaused events. Why should the Big Bang be any different? Assuming the current model is correct?

there is zero evidence of uncaused events!!! only experiences with an experiencer who does not know the explanation of the experience.  

[lovemonkey]

there is zero evidence of uncaused events!!! only experiences with an experiencer who does not know the explanation of the experience.  

There's also ZERO evidence for your god. Don't you have any shame?

[tbombz]

There's also ZERO evidence for your god. Don't you have any shame?

there is common sense and rational thought that indicate God. there is also a ton of good logical arguments that support God, but just that none of them doing it conclusively. ive given many of them in this thread.

your avoidance of God because of lack of proof and attachment to only science is kind of paradoxical. 

do you understand that there is no form of logic that can conclusively prove any type of scientific proposition?

absolutely nothing you ever say can be proved conclusively true, unless what you said was circular or self evident.




and isnt it funny that God is self evident.. thus, the only thing that can be conclusively proved, is God (also trivial, self evident things like "a red car is red".. or  "a triangle has three side"..

[loco]

Let's see:

Spanish inquisition(1478 - 1834): hundreds killed over a period of 356 years

Crusades(1095 - 1291): thousands killed over a period of 200 years


Modern day atheists:

Mao Zedong (1958 - 1960):  43 million murdered
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.

Joseph Stalin (1937 -1938): 1.2 million murdered
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002

Pol Pot (1975 -1979): 1.7 million murdered
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.

Not gonna go into a lengthy argument about those happenings but one fact I find interesting is that over half of the Waffen SS were confirmed christians. A majority of the russian people in the 20th century were orthodox christians. Hitler and Stalin may have given the orders but religious people had no trouble whatsoever obeying them.

So half of the SS were confirmed Christians?  Got any references to reputable sources to back up your bold claim?

Stalin had his atheist followers murder hundreds of thousands of Christians and other religious people.    

[lovemonkey]

there is common sense and rational thought that indicate God. there is also a ton of good logical arguments that support God, but just that none of them doing it conclusively. ive given many of them in this thread.

your avoidance of God because of lack of proof and attachment to only science is kind of paradoxical. 

do you understand that there is no form of logic that can conclusively prove any type of scientific proposition?

absolutely nothing you ever say can be proved conclusively true, unless what you said was circular or self evident.




and isnt it funny that God is self evident.. thus, the only thing that can be conclusively proved, is God (also trivial, self evident things like "a red car is red".. or  "a triangle has three side"..

We do know that complicated things have a simple and uncomplicated origin. You're putting the most complicated thing imaginable(creating/ruling deity) before the simplest(big bang). You have absolutely zero evidence for this and no thought experiments is going to make up for it. You're making up your reality, not observing it.

NO ONE knows what happened prior to the big bang. But you are actually claiming you do because it makes "sense" to you. Gee wiz get Stephen Hawking on the phone, you could be famous for solving something that's been pestering the human mind since we became a species.

You believe in a God(not just any god, but an omni-potent one) because you want to, simple as that. Your parents are most likely christians, am I right?

[tbombz]

the logic behind why you can never be certain about anything


All B's have been C
A is a B
__________
does not prove that A is C



and you can never say that B is C, all you can say is that everytime youve exerpienced B it was also C.



There is no guarantee the future will resemble the past.




You can only accept the truth of something that is inherently true, things that contain definitions that when related are circular or self evident.

otherwise, you can only accept a probability of truth.




on probability:

what are the chances of this earth attaining the correct conditions for life to evolve?

i believe the odds were something like 60 billion to one.



have you had 60 billion experiences? but you believe in things based on much less experience.


why believe in a science that has less probability of truth than the God you deny?

[tbombz]

We do know that complicated things have a simple and uncomplicated origin. You're putting the most complicated thing imaginable(creating/ruling deity) before the simplest(big bang). You have absolutely zero evidence for this and no thought experiments is going to make up for it. You're making up your reality, not observing it.

NO ONE knows what happened prior to the big bang. But you are actually claiming you do because it makes "sense" to you. Gee wiz get Stephen Hawking on the phone, you could be famous for solving something that's been pestering the human mind since we became a species.

You believe in a God(not just any god, but an omni-potent one) because you want to, simple as that. Your parents are most likely christians, am I right?

we know that the physical things withini our observable universe came from an origin, and that existence within our universe tends to get more complex.

we also know that everything must have a cause.

to deny it is extremely counterintuitive and against the BASIC PRINCIPLES OF PHYSICS.


I put a necessary supernatural cause to existence, then correctly identify it as God.

 

[lovemonkey]

So half of the SS were confirmed Christians?  Got any references to reputable sources to back up your bold claim?

Stalin had his atheist followers murder hundreds of thousands of Christians and other religious people.    

Uhm yeah, it's pretty well known that a lot of SS soldiers were religious. Later in the war a lot of muslims were allowed to join as well. I do not have the source right now to back up the "half of the SS were _confirmed_ christians" claim (read it in a book a while ago) but I did stumble upon this with a quick google search: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4732

"There was provision for “Religion’ in the Waffen SS Soldbuch, the choices being Katholic, Lutheran,or, vastly more preferable from a Nazi point of view, “Gottglaubekeit”, that is a belief in God without any allegiance to any established church.
Himmler “virulently anti-church (Theodore Eicke was even more so), even though he adopted many practical Jesuit principles in the organization and creed of the SS, to such an extent that Hitler called him ‘my Ignatious Loyala’ after the founder of the society of Jesus. This anti-Christian campaign was never even nearly wholly successful and almost half the men in the original Waffen SS regiments remained churchgoers despite peer criticism and insult (the figure was only 31 per cent in the Totenkopfverbande)” OSPREY WARRIOR SERIES, WAFFEN SS SOLDIER
Bruce Quarrie & Jeffrey Burn "

[lovemonkey]

And oh, it's also pretty well known that a big part of the catholic church were supportive of Hitler's agenda until to the point they started looking like total assbags(ie end of the war).

Catholics have always had a thing with jews, dunno why  

Even more fascinating is that in the early to mid thirties there was actually a decent amount of german jewish organizations that supported the Nazis. Go figure.

[lovemonkey]

on probability:

what are the chances of this earth attaining the correct conditions for life to evolve?

i believe the odds were something like 60 billion to one.



have you had 60 billion experiences? but you believe in things based on much less experience.


why believe in a science that has less probability of truth than the God you deny?

OK, your argument has major flaws. I'll give you a chance to figure out why that is.

[loco]

Uhm yeah, it's pretty well known that a lot of SS soldiers were religious. Later in the war a lot of muslims were allowed to join as well. I do not have the source right now to back up the "half of the SS were _confirmed_ christians" claim (read it in a book a while ago) but I did stumble upon this with a quick google search: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4732

"There was provision for “Religion’ in the Waffen SS Soldbuch, the choices being Katholic, Lutheran,or, vastly more preferable from a Nazi point of view, “Gottglaubekeit”, that is a belief in God without any allegiance to any established church.
Himmler “virulently anti-church (Theodore Eicke was even more so), even though he adopted many practical Jesuit principles in the organization and creed of the SS, to such an extent that Hitler called him ‘my Ignatious Loyala’ after the founder of the society of Jesus. This anti-Christian campaign was never even nearly wholly successful and almost half the men in the original Waffen SS regiments remained churchgoers despite peer criticism and insult (the figure was only 31 per cent in the Totenkopfverbande)” OSPREY WARRIOR SERIES, WAFFEN SS SOLDIER
Bruce Quarrie & Jeffrey Burn "

The reason I did not include Hitler and the rest of the Nazis in my list of murderous atheists is exactly because there has always been debate on whether or not they were religious.  Some people argue they were, while others argue that they were not.  When a historical figure is evil, neither the theists nor the atheists want to claim him/her.  

So what about the millions murdered by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?  These guys are confirmed atheists.

My point is not that atheists are evil.  I was simply responding to those who like to bring up the Spanish inquisition and the Crusades within 2 seconds of every mention of religion.  But those same people either don't know or conveniently fail to mention the millions murdered by modern day atheists such as the ones I just mentioned.

[lovemonkey]

The reason I did not include Hitler and the rest of the Nazis in my list of murderous atheists is exactly because there has always been debate on whether or not they were religious.  Some people argue they were, while others argue that they were not.  When a historical figure is evil, neither the theists nor the atheists want to claim him/her.  

So what about the millions murdered by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?  These guys are confirmed atheists.

My point is not that atheists are evil.  I was simply responding to those who like to bring up the Spanish inquisition and the Crusades within 2 seconds of every mention of religion.  But those same people either don't know or conveniently fail to mention the millions murdered by modern day atheists such as the ones I just mentioned.

Well I guess we share the same point of view then. People will always be capable of doing fucked up shit, religion or not. But I do think religion/worship has a tendency to bring out the worst in some people...

What's interesting about the communist killings is that the ideology itself became a religion. In early 20th century Russia the Tsar was still holy and almost deity like. You could compare it to that of a Roman Empire Ceasar. The word Tsar does actually imply an eastern block Ceasar. Stalin was smart enough to fill up that spot that the Russian people were so used to obey/worship. He did to a certain degree effectively replace the orthodox church with communism. It all appealed to the same irrationality in the Russian people. It was both a ideological motivator and a veil in front of their eyes. So the religion was indeed a tool in his terror.

But to blame it all on Stalin is somewhat incorrect. It was Stalin and his cabinet that fueled the terror machine, not Stalin alone.

Mao and Pol Pot I'll let someone else answer. But I'll refer to my first argument above.

But I do agree that the crusade and inquisition arguments are pretty lame at this point. The religious terror in those times stretched far beyond that.

[Necrosis]

time is infinite

which is pretty cool imo 

INFINITE REFERS TO SIZE

[Necrosis]

great

your one step ahead of steven hawking and the rest of the scientists who believe in the big bang theory as the creation of space, time, and matter.

steven hawking : "to ask what was before the big bang is to ask what is north of the north pole"



does that make sense?

the big bang theory does make sense, it makes perfect sense   BUT the idea that a massive force explosion happened with no cause and "in" a totally non existent "place"... makes ZERO sense

its wasnt an explosion, all the energy contained in the universe was at the singularity, the expansion of the universe happened for some reason, however, an actual singularity probably does not exist, it is a failure of our mathematics. You are saying everything needs a cause, then saying god doesnt, hawking is making perfect sense with his statment.

Energy can not be created, eternal, nor destroyed, eternal. The big bang supports this.

Also, not all cosmologists agree thats not a factual statement to say the least. The fact that you called it an explosion makes me question how much you have read on the topic.

[Necrosis]

the logic behind why you can never be certain about anything


All B's have been C
A is a B
__________
does not prove that A is C



and you can never say that B is C, all you can say is that everytime youve exerpienced B it was also C.



There is no guarantee the future will resemble the past.




You can only accept the truth of something that is inherently true, things that contain definitions that when related are circular or self evident.

otherwise, you can only accept a probability of truth.




on probability:

what are the chances of this earth attaining the correct conditions for life to evolve?

i believe the odds were something like 60 billion to one.



have you had 60 billion experiences? but you believe in things based on much less experience.


why believe in a science that has less probability of truth than the God you deny?

your stats are atrocious, the fact that we are hear make the probability 100%, perhaps there is no other way for the universe to be configured, you are assuming all other possibilities and then stacking the deck against life. The anthropomorphic argument, weak or strong sucks, its a tautology and doesn't answer anything.

This is your argument. Before the simplest thing ever, there was the most complex thing there could ever be, why? no reason, it just was. Then he creates the simplest thing which slowly progresses over billions of years to higher and higher complexity, which will eventually end in heat death killing everything.

it is not self evident that complex begets simple, in fact it is the other way around, things start simple then get complex. Again another proof against god.

[big L dawg]

your stats are atrocious, the fact that we are hear make the probability 100%, perhaps there is no other way for the universe to be configured, you are assuming all other possibilities and then stacking the deck against life. The anthropomorphic argument, weak or strong sucks, its a tautology and doesn't answer anything.

This is your argument. Before the simplest thing ever, there was the most complex thing there could ever be, why? no reason, it just was. Then he creates the simplest thing which slowly progresses over billions of years to higher and higher complexity, which will eventually end in heat death killing everything.

it is not self evident that complex begets simple, in fact it is the other way around, things start simple then get complex. Again another proof against god.

very very good post....will fly right over there head...but non the less good post...

[Captain Equipoise]

the concept of Time is a human creation, time is relative (and has not been proven to exist)

this is a great site regarding all things time (the three major theories - Einstein, Bohr and Heisenberg)

http://www.tardyon.de/time.htm

[YngiweRhoads]

there is zero evidence of uncaused events!!!

Discarding the evidence for radioactive decay, quantum field fluctuations and virtual particles is being intellectually dishonest.

Lack of understanding is no basis for the existence of a deity.

http://www.physicsforums.com/library.php?do=view_item&itemid=287

I see you also like the cosmological argument, the unmoved mover concept and have some knowledge of first year philosophy.

Here's a more suitable site to argue philosophic ideas ---> http://forums.philosophyforums.com/philosophy-of-religion/