found out another good friend is NOT a CHRISTIAN!!!!

[Butterbean]

stella can you not tell by your response that you are so closed minded its impossible to discuss this with you? where did the vaccum come from, you guys will always ask where did that come from, oh, until we get to your god who needs no explanation.

Necro, what I'm saying is it's not nothing.  

A quantum vacuum is not nothing.  So why is it wrong to ask where that came from?  

You have said something can come from nothing.  Quantum vacuum = not nothing. 

[YngiweRhoads]

Necro, what I'm saying is it's not nothing.  

A quantum vacuum is not nothing.  So why is it wrong to ask where that came from?  

You have said something can come from nothing.  Quantum vacuum = not nothing. 

Read through my posts on this thread and I describe what 'nothing' is, and why it is in later posts.

[Butterbean]

Read through my posts on this thread and I describe what 'nothing' is, and why it is in later posts.

You mean the one I quoted above?  I did read it.

Can you please link me to the other ones you're talking about or just summarize here?  Thanks YR!

[YngiweRhoads]

You mean the one I quoted above?  I did read it.

Can you please link me to the other ones you're talking about or just summarize here?  Thanks YR!

Quantum field theory shows that a quantum field, such as the quantum ground state, fluctuates, or is constituted by fluctuations  (e.g. virtual particles) which The Standard Model describes as 'fundamental' somethings. To oversimplify further: "nothingness" vibrates  insofar as "nothingness" is energetic. "A complete absence of energy" is 'metaphysical speculation' and not much else.

I alluded to this in the first sentence of the post you quoted.

[Butterbean]

OK I remember reading that!  Thanks for finding and posting that YR.

Bear with me here  but I read that as saying there is no such thing as nothing or that nothingness can't be proven.  Is that right? 

[lovemonkey]

What is a "confirmed christian?" 

As in they've themselves admitted that they are christians. It was also observed by fellow SS men. There are rumors indicating that even more than half of the SS were religious so that's why I said that at least half of them were confirmed to be believing/practicing christians as statistics show. There were all kinds of christians in the Waffen SS except for Jehovah's Witnesses of course.

[YngiweRhoads]

OK I remember reading that!  Thanks for finding and posting that YR.

Bear with me here  but I read that as saying there is no such thing as nothing or that nothingness can't be proven.  Is that right? 

Correct.

For all intents and purposes there is no such thing 'nothing', in the colloquial sense.

As for not being able to prove a total absence of energy. Maybe one day.   

[Butterbean]

As in they've themselves admitted that they are christians. It was also observed by fellow SS men. There are rumors indicating that even more than half of the SS were religious so that's why I said that at least half of them were confirmed to be believing/practicing christians as statistics show. There were all kinds of christians in the Waffen SS except for Jehovah's Witnesses of course.

Thanks for this def. lovemonkey.  

Could be those guys were Christian but also I'm sure you know that a lot of religious and non-religious people sometimes label themselves as Christian when it doesn't actually fit the biblical definition (person who sees their need for a Savior and accepts Christ as such).  

I guess my point is really it's hard to know who is truly a Christian and who isn't even if they profess to be so.  Some people don't even know for sure themselves.

[Butterbean]

Correct.

For all intents and purposes there is no such thing 'nothing', in the colloquial sense.

As for not being able to prove a total absence of energy. Maybe one day.   

Thanks.  I think a reefer bubble hit when I was reading that last post of yours

Thanks YR!

[lovemonkey]

Thanks for this def. lovemonkey.  

Could be those guys were Christian but also I'm sure you know that a lot of religious and non-religious people sometimes label themselves as Christian when it doesn't actually fit the biblical definition (person who sees their need for a Savior and accepts Christ as such).  

I guess my point is really it's hard to know who is truly a Christian and who isn't even if they profess to be so.  Some people don't even know for sure themselves.

So you mean a true christian wouldn't be able to commit the kind of atrocities the Waffen SS did?

I don't get this "true" christian thing. Considering the insane amount factions that exist within christianity who is to say they're right and the others wrong? Are you saying that your version of a true christian is the only one that wouldn't have done those terrible things? I'm sure there were a lot of SS soldiers that shared the same view of christianity as you do.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm putting words in your mouth.

[YngiweRhoads]

Thanks.  I think a reefer bubble hit when I was reading that last post of yours

Thanks YR!

Haha!

YW STella!

[tbombz]

"energy can not be created, nor destroyed according to the natural laws of existence"

"energy can not be created according to the natural laws of existence"

leads to=

"energy can not exist  according to the natural laws of existence"

but,

"energy does exist"

and since

"energy can not exist  according to the natural laws of existence"

it follows that

"energy was created supernaturally"

[lovemonkey]

"energy can not be created, nor destroyed according to the natural laws of existence"

"energy can not be created according to the natural laws of existence"

leads to=

"energy can not exist  according to the natural laws of existence"

but,

"energy does exist"

and since

"energy can not exist  according to the natural laws of existence"

it follows that

"energy was created supernaturally"

The belief in creating deities is about as old as our species. Most of the modern physics and quantum theory is less than a hundred years old. Yet in this short time we've learned so much more about our existence than religion has provided us with for thousands of years. In fact, considering how utterly falsified and man made the creation myths are, we've learned NOTHING about our existence from those fairy tales. Are you totally denying the possibility that science will get closer to the truth than what you just presented? And before you start saying that you're indeed using science to prove the existence of god just let me say "no". You're making shit up with zero evidence. Even your way of thought has tons of flaws in it.

[tbombz]

The belief in creating deities is about as old as our species. Most of the modern physics and quantum theory is less than a hundred years old. Yet in this short time we've learned so much more about our existence than religion has provided us with for thousands of years. In fact, considering how utterly falsified and man made the creation myths are, we've learned NOTHING about our existence from those fairy tales. Are you totally denying the possibility that science will get closer to the truth than what you just presented? And before you start saying that you're indeed using science to prove the existence of god just let me say "no". You're making shit up with zero evidence. Even your way of thought has tons of flaws in it.

we have learned so much about the mechanics of this physical world.

we have learned nothing of the mechanics of reality.. the big bang, the atom, quantum mechanics..   descriptions of God's tools for developing life..

 

[lovemonkey]

we have learned so much about the mechanics of this physical world.

we have learned nothing of the mechanics of reality.. the big bang, the atom, quantum mechanics..   descriptions of God's tools for developing life..

 

But yet you're so sure that God exists? How can you be certain of this when you just now said that we know nothing about the things that could unveil "his" doing?

You said earlier in the thread that it's about the faith. BINGO.

Faith - a belief in something contrary to the evidence or in the lack of evidence. You're a theistic lunatic. It's not enough for you to say that a deity created the universe, you also claim to know its mind. You have nothing supporting your argument except for your own faith.

[Necrosis]

"energy can not be created, nor destroyed according to the natural laws of existence"

"energy can not be created according to the natural laws of existence"

leads to=

"energy can not exist  according to the natural laws of existence"

but,

"energy does exist"

and since

"energy can not exist  according to the natural laws of existence"

it follows that

"energy was created supernaturally"

LOL, im not taking this post serious.

[WillGrant]

Get this fuckin god bothering shit off the G&O for fucks sake..

[tbombz]

LOL, im not taking this post serious.

do i need to change the second to last bold quote for you to get it? ok here:

energy can not exist, because the natural laws of the universe dictate that it can not be created.

[lovemonkey]

Get this fuckin god bothering shit off the G&O for fucks sake..

We're discussing the biceps vascularity and drug regimen of creating deities, piss off.

[tbombz]

But yet you're so sure that God exists? How can you be certain of this when you just now said that we know nothing about the things that could unveil "his" doing?

You said earlier in the thread that it's about the faith. BINGO.

Faith - a belief in something contrary to the evidence or in the lack of evidence. You're a theistic lunatic. It's not enough for you to say that a deity created the universe, you also claim to know its mind. You have nothing supporting your argument except for your own faith.

Faith is a belief in something that you do not have conclusive proof of. often times the reasons that cause faith have more proof within them than any scientific proof could ever have, as i pointd out before the probability of scientific statements being true are limited to the amount of times that statement has been experienced.

[lovemonkey]

Faith is a belief in something that you do not have conclusive proof of. often times the reasons that cause faith have more proof within them than any scientific proof could ever have, as i pointd out before the probability of scientific statements being true are limited to the amount of times that statement has been experienced.

Forget about conclusive proof, you've got zero proof for your god. Not even shabby ones.

But yet you're so sure that God exists? How can you be certain of this when you just now said that we know nothing about the things that could unveil "his" doing?

I would like to hear your reasoning against this.

[tbombz]

God is not subject to our desires of him. Conclusive proof on earth is what we wish, but it is not what God planned.

I said God can not be proven, i did not say there was no proof. 

proof is aplenty

as for my personal proof... i have outlined some of my logical reasonings within this thread.. beyond that, my experiences with God.. they will not persuade you, nor anyone else.. besides me. for they were my own experiences. 

[lovemonkey]

God is not subject to our desires of him. Conclusive proof on earth is what we wish, but it is not what God planned.

I said God can not be proven, i did not say there was no proof. 

proof is aplenty

as for my personal proof... i have outlined some of my logical reasonings within this thread.. beyond that, my experiences with God.. they will not persuade you, nor anyone else.. besides me. for they were my own experiences. 

Wow dude you're way out there.

"Your own experiences with god" "what god planned" hahahahaha. I'm sorry but I'm done with this debate with you for now, what's the point you're just a straight up lunatic.

[YngiweRhoads]

do i need to change the second to last bold quote for you to get it? ok here:

energy can not exist, because the natural laws of the universe dictate that it can not be created.

Energy exists without being created. It's the nature of the universe.

Your statement implies the nature of the universe to be 'nothing' instead of 'something' as a basis for claiming the necessity of a supernatural creator. ie. Energy can't be created without a supernatural entity

Entropy shows 'nothing' is simply more unstable than 'something' meaning 'something' must exist. This necessitates that 'something' is the nature of the universe rather than 'nothing' without the need for a supernatural creator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

[YngiweRhoads]

Wow dude you're way out there.

"Your own experiences with god" "what god planned" hahahahaha. I'm sorry but I'm done with this debate with you for now, what's the point you're just a straight up lunatic.

It's funny how people are 'allowed' to take liberties with 'god'. If I claimed to have my own experiences with god santa claus I'd be called insane. It's acceptable to have an invisible friend, as long as it's called god.