Author Topic: Cities and States finally turning on their Union masters over pensions and wages  (Read 1100 times)

Soul Crusher

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Category: Political
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Dying city and state governments finally turning on their union masters and it won’t be pretty
April 3, 2010, 7:20 am By Kevin “Coach” Collins
www.collinsreport.com


Los Angeles mayor Villaraigosa’s chief of staff made it crystal clear: “Unions have priced themselves out of a job.”
America’s big cities have come to a grim choice: the union party is over or the city is over. The costs of union pensions and healthcare coverage have officials in cash strapped cities and states confronting their union masters and demanding dramatic benefit cuts from the same unions that hold them on a leash.

Memphis is looking to increase its retired employees’ healthcare premiums by around 15%. Toledo ripped $3.1 million from its fire fighters union contract. At least 17 states have either cut employee benefits or demanded big concessions from unionized workers.

Costs tell the story

Labor Department figures on the costs per worker hour for public versus private employees make the case about the oppressive costs of unionized government workers. It reports that for December the average government employee cost $39.60 versus just $27.42 for private employees. When this huge disparity is combined with the Census Bureau’s report on sharply declining state and local tax revenues which dropped 18% since Barack Obama’s election, the way to solvency is not at all clear.

Water lapping the top of the dam

The number of unionized government workers has finally surpassed that of private sector union workers. This means the number of private workers who pay the taxes to support government employees is shrinking and the number of takers is growing. This can only mean disaster for our country.

California in freefall

It has long been said: what happens in California today will happen across the country tomorrow. If this holds true we’re in for a depression caused by greedy unions controlling spineless Democrats. California’s Public Employees’ Retirement System at best is funded just 65% of what it needs to function.

Government pensions have always been a part of governments since the Roman Empire. In America public employees started to get pension plans and tenure against layoffs in the 1930s because they were paid far less than private employees. Nevertheless, that arrangement didn’t last and now the relationship between government and its employees is all one sided. The employees are paid far more than private workers and still have tenure and pension plans unheard of in private industry.

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This is happening in NJ as well and the Union thugs are trying to make Christie out to be the bad guy for daring to talk about fiscal sanity and common sense.  .

Hugo Chavez

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 ::)  Huge part of the story you're not telling.

Soul Crusher

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::)  Huge part of the story you're not telling.

Which is what? 

1.  The 2 Trillion dollar unfunded liability of govt pensions we have no way to pay for? 

2.  The fact that where govt unions are strongest the states are in the worst shape and have massive taxes like NY, IL, MI, and CA? 

 

Hugo Chavez

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I think we both know you're not telling the whole story.  I'm not going to say the unions are not without problem or corruption, but let's at least deliver a complete picture of why things are the way they are and where they would be if things had not transpired the way they did.

George Whorewell

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Hugo what the hell are you babbling about?

Why don't you show us the complete picture?

Soul Crusher

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I think we both know you're not telling the whole story.  I'm not going to say the unions are not without problem or corruption, but let's at least deliver a complete picture of why things are the way they are and where they would be if things had not transpired the way they did.

Not at all.  You dont live in one of these states.  I do.  I'll use this as an example.  My parents like on a city block with ten houses.  The average tax bill is about 10k a year.  My friend who is a copy in said city last year made 175k.  His base was 90k and through abusing OT, bogus other things, etc, he got his salary up to $175k.  Now, when he retires after 20 years "putting his life on the line", he will get paid 50% of his average salary, WHICH INCLUDES OVERTIME!.  SO HE IS LIKELY TO RETIRE AT 42 Y/O WITH YEARLY PENSION OF ALMOST 90K A YEAR PLUS HEALTH BENEFITS FOR LIFE!  

So, my parents entire city blocks' tax receipts do not even come close to supporting one cop.  Now, the firemen get the same deal.  The teachers dont get the same deal from what I know, but they dont exactly bust their ass.  

There is simply no amount economic activity ot tax increases left that can sustain this insanity.  Even worse, when times were good, the greedy pigs in govt greatly added to the payrolls, and now they cant be fired or released.  So now that the economy is bad, these slobs refuse to accept any reductions or cuts, despite the fact that when times were good they still benefited greatly.  

Remember HUGO - the state and city gotvt cant print money like the Fed Govt.  They have to operate off of revenues alone and are now reaping the whilrwind of decades of reckless growth in govt that simply cant be paid.  

Its basic math and everyone knows it.  The only ones who still deny this math are the koola iders and those who want endless growth in govt.      

Hugo Chavez

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Hugo what the hell are you babbling about?

Why don't you show us the complete picture?
why are you mocking me?... I didn't want to piss off anyone with my statement.  I just feel there are well known reason why we are here in this place and part of the story is being left out. 

Soul Crusher

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why are you mocking me?... I didn't want to piss off anyone with my statement.  I just feel there are well known reason why we are here in this place and part of the story is being left out. 

Its called fiscal recklesses and insanity by Govt and Wall Street on all levels.   

George Whorewell

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I'm not mocking you. You are just being very vague. You allude to all of these things that should be added to this story without mentioning or explaining what those things might be.

333 posted an article and gave an explanation. I was expecting some abuse, or a rebuttal, but instead all you did was give a cryptic response-- almost the internet equivalent of a coded message. " You and I both know whats going on here"...[ cue dramatic music]  ;D

Hugo Chavez

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Its called fiscal recklesses and insanity by Govt and Wall Street on all levels.   
I'm sorry, we must be talking about two different things.  My bust, I must have missed the point ::)

Soul Crusher

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I'm sorry, we must be talking about two different things.  My bust, I must have missed the point ::)

Maybe is you did not speak in code we would be on the same page.  I gave a real life example above that I have personal knoweldge of and am waiting for a rebutal as to how taxpayers can afford this. 

Hugo Chavez

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Maybe is you did not speak in code we would be on the same page.  I gave a real life example above that I have personal knoweldge of and am waiting for a rebutal as to how taxpayers can afford this. 
yea, we're approaching this from two different worlds.  You see me as a liberal commie marxist and I see you as a pile of.............  I'm sure you think there is and never has been a good purpose to unions....  If that's you're thinking, we have fucking nothing to talk about.

Soul Crusher

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yea, we're approaching this from two different worlds.  You see me as a liberal commie marxist and I see you as a pile of.............  I'm sure you think there is and never has been a good purpose to unions....  If that's you're thinking, we have fucking nothing to talk about.

First off Hugo - screw off with your personal nonsense.  Your acting like a girl again. 

Second, I never said you were a commie, you only use the name of one and defend said person, which leads many to believe that in fact you share similar beliefs. 

Third, I dont see you as a commie, only as a left winger who has little understanding of real world economics and as someone who buys into the drivel that all businesses are evil and only the Fairy God Govt can save us via regulation, taxation, and command and control bs. 

Fourth, there is absolutely no justification for public employee unions whatsoever.   None!  Who are they unionininzing against?  Me, the schlub taxpayer.  Do I get a seat at the bargaining table when they greedy pigs are shaking down the taxpayers?  No, I am only stuck with the bill and a 10k property tax bill on my home, and a 100k a year tax bill on my office building.  I never remember getting asked whether I could afford it or not, only threatened with strikes and layoffs if I didnt pony up. 

Fifth, there is no need for unions in todays' age because the govt has formed agencies and means of redress that were not in place when unions were formed.  OSHA, DOL, EEOC, etc etc all supplant the need for unions.  And its not only federal, every state, county and many cities have their own labor departments setting wages, conditions, etc. 

Sixth, Unions are a direct cause of inflation and promote mediocrity and less productivity and innovation.  Look anywhere unions were once big and you have mass unemployment, lost businesses, bankruptcies and debt.  in a global economy, unions are quickest, fastest, and most sure way towards bankruptcy that any business can dream of.   

Soul Crusher

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Here is an anaylsis by one of the most widely read economists in recent histoery, Hazzlett:
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Economics in One Lesson
by Henry Hazlitt
The Lesson Applied
Do Unions Really Raise Wages
◄ Minimum Wage LawsSection 2 ►Contents
 
The belief that labor unions can substantially raise real wages over the long run and for the whole working population is one of the great delusions of the present age. This delusion is mainly the result of failure to recognize that wages are basically determined by labor productivity. It is for this reason, for example, that wages in the United States were incomparably higher than wages in England and Germany all during the decades when the “labor movement” in the latter two countries was far more advanced.

In spite of the overwhelming evidence that labor productivity is the fundamental determinant of wages, the conclusion is usually forgotten or derided by labor union leaders and by that large group of economic writers who seek a reputation as “liberals” by parroting them. But this conclusion does not rest on the assumption, as they suppose, that employers are uniformly kind and generous men eager to do what is right. It rests on the very different assumption that the individual employer is eager to increase his own profits to the maximum. If people are willing to work for less than they are really worth to him, why should he not take the fullest advantage of this? Why should he not prefer, for example, to make $1 a week out of a workman rather than see some other employer make $2 a week out of him? And as long as this situation exists, there will be a tendency for employers to bid workers up to their full economic worth.

All this does not mean that unions can serve no useful or legitimate function. The central function they can serve is to improve local working conditions and to assure that all of their members get the true market value of their services.

For the competition of workers for jobs, and of employers for workers, does not work perfectly. Neither individual workers nor individual employers are likely to be fully informed concerning the conditions of the labor market. An individual worker may not know the true market value of his services to an employer. And he may be in a weak bargaining position. Mistakes of judgment are far more costly to him than to an employer. If an employer mistakenly refuses to hire a man from whose services he might have profited, he merely loses the net profit he might have made from employing that one man; and he may employ a hundred or a thousand men. But if a worker mistakenly refuses a job in the belief that he can easily get another that will pay him more, the error may cost him dear. His whole means of livelihood is involved. Not only may he fail to find promptly another job offering more; he may fail for a time to find another job offering remotely as much. And time may be the essence of his problem, because he and his family must eat. So he may be tempted to take a wage that he believes to be below his “real worth” rather than face these risks. When an employer’s workers deal with him as a body, however, and set a known “standard wage” for a given class of work, they may help to equalize bargaining power and the risks involved in mistakes.

But it is easy, as experience has proved, for unions, particularly with the help of one-sided labor legislation which puts compulsions solely on employers, to go beyond their legitimate functions, to act irresponsibly, and to embrace short-sighted and antisocial policies. TI do this, for example, whenever they seek to fix the wages of their members above their real market worth. Such an attempt always brings about unemployment. The arrangement can be made to stick, in fact, only by some form of intimidation or coercion.

One device consists in restricting the membership of the union on some other basis than that of proved competence or skill. restriction may take many forms: it may consist in charging new workers excessive initiation fees; in arbitrary membership qualifications; in discrimination, open or concealed, on grounds of religion, race or sex; in some absolute limitation on the number of members, or in exclusion, by force if necessary, not only of the products of nonunion labor, but of the products even of affiliated unions in other states or cities.

The most obvious case in which intimidation and force are used to put or keep the wages of a particular union above the real market worth of its members’ services is that of a strike. A peaceful strike is possible. To the extent that it remains peaceful, it is a legitimate labor weapon, even though it is one that should be used rarely and as a last resort. If his workers as a body withhold their labor, they may bring a stubborn employer, who has been underpaying them, to his senses. He may find that he is unable to replace these workers with workers equally good who are willing to accept the wage that the former have now rejected. But the moment workers have to use intimidation or violence to enforce their demands—the moment they use mass picketing to prevent any of the old workers from continuing at their jobs, or to prevent the employer from hiring new permanent workers to take their places—their case becomes suspect. For the pickets are really being used, not primarily against the employer, but against other workers. These other workers are willing to take the jobs that the old employees have vacated, and at the wages that the old employees now reject. The fact proves that the other alternatives open to the new workers are not as good as those that the old employees have refused. If, therefore, the old employees succeed by force in preventing new workers from taking the place, they prevent these new workers from choosing the best alternative open to them, and force them to take something worse. The strikers are therefore insisting on a position of privilege, and are using force to maintain this privileged position against other workers.

If the foregoing analysis is correct, the indiscriminate hatred of the “strikebreaker” is not justified. If the strikebreakers consist merely of professional thugs who themselves threaten violence, or who cannot in fact do the work, or if they are being paid a temporarily higher rate solely for the purpose of making a pretense of carrying on until the old workers are frightened back to work at the old rates, the hatred may be warranted. But if they are in fact merely men and women who are looking for permanent jobs and willing to accept them at the old rate, then they are workers who would be shoved into worse jobs than these in order to enable the striking workers to enjoy better ones. And this superior position for the old employees could continue to be maintained, in fact, only by the ever-present threat of force.

Soul Crusher

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You can read the rest here if you want:

http://jim.com/econ/chap20p2.html


The bottom line is that if you want to know how real world economics works and what will improve the economy, ask the small business person, not the union leader. 




Slapper

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I do not know of a single case in which a workers union actually bankrupted a city, a state or a country.  

Not one.

On the other hand I know what happened to the billions of 401K dollars that disappeared with Enron, Lehman Brothers, et cetera.  

Or the auto industry turning a beautiful part of Detroit into a shithole.

Take NYC for example... BloomShit keeps renegotiating contracts with the unions ever so often. This guy HATES the unions. BUT, while he blames the unions for NYC's economic problems, no one is noticing that he has tripled his fortune ever since he got into office. In his first year as mayor he had 4 billion in the the bank. Fast track to 2010: He now has 12 billion in the bank. Any wander why he wants to run again?!

To put it in perspective:

Bloomberg's profits:                      7 billion.
NYC's pension expenses (2009):     6.2 billion.

Who's robbing who?


Soul Crusher

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What do the two have to do with anything?  Since when is the govt supposed to be an equity parter in peoples private businesses? 

BTW - do you realize what the state of NYC would be if we had Vallone, Thompson, or one of those other lib freaks as mayor? 

As for your comment about workers bankrupting cities look up Vallejo CA. 

Second, the reason it does not occur more often is called TAX INCREASES!  The govt has the ability to keep taxing the crap out of people to keep finding this insanity.  MTA payroll tax, lottery tax, dmv fee increases, sin taxes, etc all keep getting piled on top up high property, income, sales, energy, and other taxes and people are fed up. 


So what is the leftists' answer?  Tax some more, and when that never works out?  Tax even more, and more and more until the whole place collapses.

The other thing that makes me laugh is how deluded left wingers are.  The economy is global and much more mobile now, as are people.  People of means, and business owners are simply not going to stick around and be pinatas for endless growth of govt.  Its very easy to pick up and move elsewhere and the evidence is that is in fact occuring.  NJ alone has lost 70 BILLION in assets of high end tax paoeple sick of the tax and regulatory climate to more tax friendly states such as Florida, Texas, etc. 

I myself am already planning my move to Fairfield CT as the taxes are half of what they are in Westchester.  I can do my work from a home setup and set up a virtual office for pennies on the dollar and avoid the NYS tax monster that only serves to keep feeding the frankenstein that has been built up over so many years.   

 

Soul Crusher

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Vallejo votes to declare Chapter 9 bankruptcy
Chapter 9 will freeze debts so city can reorganize finances
vallejoMay 07, 2008|By Carolyn Jones, Chronicle Staff Writer(05-07) 00:12


PDT Vallejo — The Vallejo City Council voted to declare bankruptcy Tuesday night after months of last-ditch wrangling failed to rescue the city from financial catastrophe.

The North Bay city of 117,000 now heads into largely uncharted territory, as no California city of this size has ever opted for this route.

"This has been a long frustrating process for everyone," said City Manager Joseph Tanner. "There are no winners here tonight."

 
Debt relief through Chapter 7 & Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Call now.
bradford.localplacement. comAfter about four hours of discussion and public comment from the standing-room-only crowd, the council voted 7-0 to approve Tanner's recommendation to declare Chapter 9 bankruptcy protection as a means to reorganize its finances, which have been shattered by spiraling public employee salaries and the plummeting housing market.

The move allows the city to freeze its debts while maintaining city services. Police, fire and other unions and many in the audience were outraged at the move, accusing the council of poor leadership.

The city suffers from mismanagement and has less debt than it claims, said a union spokesman, Ken Shoemaker, a representative of the electrical union.

Vallejo faces a $16 million shortfall and no money in its reserve account for the fiscal year beginning July 1. In March, the city shaved several million dollars from its payroll, museums, public works, senior centers, libraries and other services to avoid bankruptcy, but needed to make further cuts to meet increased expenses in the next fiscal year.

The city and its police and fire unions held a final contract negotiating session Sunday but failed to reach an agreement before Tuesday's City Council meeting.

The city and its public safety unions have been at the bargaining table for about two years. The city is asking for its police and firefighters to take salary, benefit and staff cuts, while the unions say any further cuts would endanger public safety as well as the safety of the police and firefighters.

Vallejo spends 74 percent of its $80 million general fund budget on public safety salaries, significantly higher than the state average. The generous contracts are the result of deals struck in the 1970s, following a police strike that left the city in turmoil.

The City Council had been split on whether to declare bankruptcy. Some, including Mayor Osby Davis, said the stigma would threaten the city's long-term economic development and discourage investors, while others said it would give the city time to restructure its budget and offer protection from creditors.

What's unknown is whether bankruptcy will dissolve the city's labor contracts, which most City Hall staffers say is the primary reason for the city's financial mess. A judge will have to decide whether to dissolve the contracts.

Vallejo became the second California city to declare bankruptcy, but the first to do so because of long-term economic woes. Desert Hot Springs (Riverside County) declared bankruptcy in 2001 after losing a lawsuit brought by a developer. Orange County declared bankruptcy in 1994 after losing $1.6 billion in bad investments.

Cities and counties throughout the state are in a predicament similar to Vallejo's, and many are watching to see what happens in the North Bay city over the next few months.

If the regional and national economies suffer another down year, numerous Bay Area cities - especially those highly dependent on the housing market for property- and transfer-tax revenues - are likely to be investigating bankruptcy options.

George Whorewell

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333- you're playing chess and these idiots are playing checkers. Why even waste your time explaining something to a mental midget like Slapper? He couldn't comprehend this stuff  even if he spent the rest of his life studying it. 

Straw Man

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defined benefit pension are an archaic timebomb

public employees should get something akin to a 401k (with matching by their "employer") and that's it.

It's ridiculous to keep paying these people a large percentage of their salary for the rest of their lives.

Also, many public sector employees (especially cops and firefighters) know how to game the system so that they can maximize their pension and in some cases not even pay taxes on the majority of their benefit

SAMSON123

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Category: Political
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dying city and state governments finally turning on their union masters and it won’t be pretty
April 3, 2010, 7:20 am By Kevin “Coach” Collins
www.collinsreport.com


Los Angeles mayor Villaraigosa’s chief of staff made it crystal clear: “Unions have priced themselves out of a job.”
America’s big cities have come to a grim choice: the union party is over or the city is over. The costs of union pensions and healthcare coverage have officials in cash strapped cities and states confronting their union masters and demanding dramatic benefit cuts from the same unions that hold them on a leash.

Memphis is looking to increase its retired employees’ healthcare premiums by around 15%. Toledo ripped $3.1 million from its fire fighters union contract. At least 17 states have either cut employee benefits or demanded big concessions from unionized workers.

Costs tell the story

Labor Department figures on the costs per worker hour for public versus private employees make the case about the oppressive costs of unionized government workers. It reports that for December the average government employee cost $39.60 versus just $27.42 for private employees. When this huge disparity is combined with the Census Bureau’s report on sharply declining state and local tax revenues which dropped 18% since Barack Obama’s election, the way to solvency is not at all clear.

Water lapping the top of the dam

The number of unionized government workers has finally surpassed that of private sector union workers. This means the number of private workers who pay the taxes to support government employees is shrinking and the number of takers is growing. This can only mean disaster for our country.

California in freefall

It has long been said: what happens in California today will happen across the country tomorrow. If this holds true we’re in for a depression caused by greedy unions controlling spineless Democrats. California’s Public Employees’ Retirement System at best is funded just 65% of what it needs to function.

Government pensions have always been a part of governments since the Roman Empire. In America public employees started to get pension plans and tenure against layoffs in the 1930s because they were paid far less than private employees. Nevertheless, that arrangement didn’t last and now the relationship between government and its employees is all one sided. The employees are paid far more than private workers and still have tenure and pension plans unheard of in private industry.

Yesterday’s Rasmussen Presidential Index had Obama at-10

Remember there is no such thing as a pro life Democrat: there are only some Democrats that are better liars than others.

Did you convert a friend, family member or coworker to the truth about Obama yesterday? What will you do today and what do you plan to do tomorrow?

Use this site to contact your Congressional Representative. Let him or her know you will work to defeat anyone who votes for amnesty for illegal aliens or against any effort to kick them out.

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Sources

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704059004575127991641216702.html

http://nalert.blogspot.com/

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/dec2009/stat-d31.shtml

________________________ ________________________ ________

This is happening in NJ as well and the Union thugs are trying to make Christie out to be the bad guy for daring to talk about fiscal sanity and common sense.  .

Sadly this trashing of unions (little guys) continues while the Real THIEVES walk away with the house. I have said over and over you guys keep focusing on the least/helpless/innocent people in america while the real thieves pad their pockets with TRILLIONS. The UNIONS DID NOT GET AMERICA INTO THE FINANCIAL RUIN IT IS IN the last time I checked....it was and still is WALL STREET. While the endless bashing of teachers, assembly line workers, nurses, construction workers etc goes on, all of the wall street banking and real estate scum walks right by you...tips their hat... grabs your wallet... and goes unnoticed. The union members are NOT making much of a living themselves...most of them are living in public housing, extremely modest almost poor homes, have little to no stock, investments or anything of value, are riding public transportation everyday are complaining about trying to make it just like everybody else. BUT somehow to the foolish they are ripe for condemning. While the ameriacn media LIED ITS ASS OFF making it seem like the union members were enjoying luxurious salaries and benefits..further investigation showed that most are barely making 30,000 dollars per year, working long difficult hours and have little to nothign to show for their work. Their health insurance is questionable and rarely is dental covered...their children are attending public schools as private schooling is way beyond their budget. Any excesses in life are few and far between and difficulty is had in dealing with life's issues is had by them just like everyone else.

You guys have got to get your shit together. It will not be long before you are just like RATS in a space to small for comfort, before you are literally EATING EACH OTHER ALIVE....we already see the beginnings of it here.
C

Soul Crusher

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1.  Municiple finance do not operate the same way the  Federal Govt does. 

2.  Govt Union workers earn more than private sector people do by a wide margin. 

3.  I know three cops who make over 150k a year and wuill retire at 42 y/o w pensions of about 100k a year plus health benes for life.  They spend a lot of days drinking in bars and beating people up. 


We may agree on some issues Samson, but this is not one of them.  Thwe property tax burden in NYS is so high where i live to fund all of this you have absolutely no idea.