Author Topic: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News  (Read 10789 times)

Skip8282

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2010, 02:27:06 PM »
I mean, what O'Reilly is stating as the reason why we dropped two atomic bombs on civilian targets is the very same reason Joseph Goebels gave as one of the tilting points in Hitler's posture toward the Jews: "Regarding the Jewish Question, the Führer is determined to clear the table. He warned the Jews that if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction. Those were not empty words. Now the world war has come. The destruction of the Jews must be its necessary consequence. We cannot be sentimental about it. It is not for us to feel sympathy for the Jews. We should have sympathy rather with our own German people. If the German people have to sacrifice 160,000 victims in yet another campaign in the east, then those responsible for this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their lives."

These are similarities of H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T proportions, the ones that would make anyone sit back in disgust. But not in the USA.

Again, these are things that are public knowledge. This is why I say people ought to read, to inform themselves. If people read they would find out that the Tea Party types are acting in a manner reminiscent of that of the Nazis. 

I mean O'Reilly has been corrected so many times any sane person would not see him as a credible voice. Yet, many do, more out of desperation I hope. Bill's discourse is remarkedly proto-fascist. I'm not making this up folks. Read up.



You're dumb as fuck...and that is meant as an insult.  Posted facts?  No, you posted assumptions.

Assumption #1)  People around the world hate us because dropping the bombs equates to Hitler's Final solution.

No, they don't.  I've lived all over the world.  First, it's rarely even an issue.  Second, most around the world can distinguish the difference.  Third, they typically hate us for other issues.


Assumption #2)  Hitler's final solution is based on the same reasoning as us dropping the bomb.

This is your inability to distinguish right from wrong.  The Nazis were of the belief that Jews had caused WWII so killing them all off was justified.  Now you want to pretend as though the fact that the Jews did not cause the war is immaterial.  The reality is - it is material.  And what the Nazis did was nothing short of senseless murder.

When we dropped the bomb, we were not trying to eliminate every single Jap even though there is no question about their role in the war.


Assumption #3)  Had the Nazis been successful, history would now record that the killings were justified. 

That's like saying history records the murder of the Native Americans as being justified.  (Hint, as you're not too bright:  It doesn't)  In fact, history records that we unfairly butchered and treated them like shit. 

Option D

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2010, 03:46:59 PM »


You're missing the fact that most contradictions that Stewart points out (that I've seen) deal with opinion.  If Fox has 2 different broadcasters giving their opinion and it differs, the so-what.  If Fox is giving the news and contradicts, then I think it's a fair criticism.

Obviously Hannity didn't have a clue what the fuck he was talking about and looks like a complete ass.  But that doesn't mean another Fox commentator can't or shouldn't say something contradictory to Hannity.

Either way, Hannity is not news.  He's commentary and opinion regardless of how misinformed he was on this subject.


not at all..we are talking about the same people here...not that hannity said one thing and beck said another..not at all


beck says one thing today but says the total opposite the next day...GTFO

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2010, 05:41:40 PM »
They are all a bunch of douches who are getting paid....all are just entertainers with nothing really to say.  I haven't watched half of their shows, the ones I have, like Stewart, got old a couple of years ago.  I watch the local new on occasion, but thats it.

Skip8282

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2010, 06:29:02 PM »

not at all..we are talking about the same people here...not that hannity said one thing and beck said another..not at all


beck says one thing today but says the total opposite the next day...GTFO



Yes, and in those cases I think Stewart's right to call them out on that.

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2010, 09:06:08 PM »
Too easy of a target is why.

The problem is, FOX viewers never go back and check to see if the nonsense they are receiving is even credible or factual.  They also have a tough time separating someone`s opinion from a fact and merge the two freely. 

The problem is that too many FOX critics just can't stomach the facts that the other two cable news networks simply SUCK and have been getting KILLED by Fox for the better part of a decade.

Slapper

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2010, 05:08:30 AM »

You're dumb as fuck...and that is meant as an insult.  Posted facts?  No, you posted assumptions.

Nooo dude, nooooo, nooooo, noooooo. Come on, read dude read. You can do it!

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Assumption #1)  People around the world hate us because dropping the bombs equates to Hitler's Final solution.

No, they don't.  I've lived all over the world.  First, it's rarely even an issue.  Second, most around the world can distinguish the difference.  Third, they typically hate us for other issues.



It's "rarely been an issue"?



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Assumption #2)  Hitler's final solution is based on the same reasoning as us dropping the bomb.

This is your inability to distinguish right from wrong.

The Nazis were of the belief that Jews had caused WWII so killing them all off was justified.  Now you want to pretend as though the fact that the Jews did not cause the war is immaterial.  The reality is - it is material.  And what the Nazis did was nothing short of senseless murder.

Nothing short of senseless murder. I presume dropping two atomic bombs on two civilian targets have nothing to do with "senseless murder". That's quite a dichotomy.

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When we dropped the bomb, we were not trying to eliminate every single Jap even though there is no question about their role in the war.

You mean the bombs? So we weren't out to put the Japanese in concentration camps, oh wait! we did! Any way, we were for putting Japanese-Americans in concentration camps but we weren't looking to exterminate them... Oh, ok. That makes it better. Is it? The outcome is the same: Massacre of civilians.

The "victim"The "aggressor"The "solution"The REAL outcomeReason
AmericansThe JapaneseDrop two atomic bombsMassacre of civilians (hundreds of thousands)To save American lives
GermansThe JewsThe HolocaustMassacre of civilians (millions)To save German lives

This pattern shows up everywhere throughout history. And it's no coincidence. You can move the variables around if you like. The only fixed variable is that the winner gets to excuse their attrocities and erase them from public record.

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Assumption #3)  Had the Nazis been successful, history would now record that the killings were justified.  

That's like saying history records the murder of the Native Americans as being justified.  (Hint, as you're not too bright:  It doesn't)  In fact, history records that we unfairly butchered and treated them like shit.

No, I'm not saying the Native American Holocaust was justified, I am saying that had the Nazis won WWII the Holocaust would've been just another footnote, one of those major events in history that history professors in high schools in Germany would breeze through in 5 minutes (kinda like we do here with the Native Americans and the question of slavery).

History is always written by the winners, not the losers. That's why the American Revolution is an event that we mostly know about from an American perspective. Had you read up on the AR from a British perspective and you would be shocked of what the Brits thought of the AR (we were nuts).

Look, there is no justification for the killings of civilians. Now, then, in the future, here, in Viet Nam, Hungary of the Lower Rhine. It's universal justice, as known by both sides, the winners and the losers (see the UN charters for more information).

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2010, 06:19:30 AM »
How many japanese did we gas and shoot in the concentration camps?

Skip8282

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2010, 06:59:57 AM »


It's "rarely been an issue"?



Read fool.  I said they hate us for other reasons.  Where in your poll is our actions on WWII indicated?  It's not.  At least try to use your brain.



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Nothing short of senseless murder. I presume dropping two atomic bombs on two civilian targets have nothing to do with "senseless murder". That's quite a dichotomy.

You mean the bombs? So we weren't out to put the Japanese in concentration camps, oh wait! we did! Any way, we were for putting Japanese-Americans in concentration camps but we weren't looking to exterminate them... Oh, ok. That makes it better. Is it? The outcome is the same: Massacre of civilians.

The "victim"The "aggressor"The "solution"The REAL outcomeReason
AmericansThe JapaneseDrop two atomic bombsMassacre of civilians (hundreds of thousands)To save American lives
GermansThe JewsThe HolocaustMassacre of civilians (millions)To save German lives

Killing civilians is absolutely justified.  Who the fuck do you think is supporting soldiers?  You think they're growing their own crops?  Making their own clothes?  Building their weapons?  These are done by civilians, and it's perfectly acceptable to target them.


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This pattern shows up everywhere throughout history. And it's no coincidence. You can move the variables around if you like. The only fixed variable is that the winner gets to excuse their attrocities and erase them from public record.

No, I'm not saying the Native American Holocaust was justified, I am saying that had the Nazis won WWII the Holocaust would've been just another footnote, one of those major events in history that history professors in high schools in Germany would breeze through in 5 minutes (kinda like we do here with the Native Americans and the question of slavery).

We do not do that here in the US.  Native American history and our brutalization of those people was covered extensively.  Especially considering that we don't treat them much better today.  Your claim is not a fact, it's just that - a claim.


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History is always written by the winners, not the losers. That's why the American Revolution is an event that we mostly know about from an American perspective. Had you read up on the AR from a British perspective and you would be shocked of what the Brits thought of the AR (we were nuts).

Look, there is no justification for the killings of civilians. Now, then, in the future, here, in Viet Nam, Hungary of the Lower Rhine. It's universal justice, as known by both sides, the winners and the losers (see the UN charters for more information).

Read above about killing civilians.

Slapper

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2010, 07:13:55 AM »
How many japanese did we gas and shoot in the concentration camps?

Well, the German's attitude was: Gather up, concentrate, force labor and death. In that sequence.

We just went straight for the kill (atomic bombs).

I guess you could say we needed not any concentration camps to arrive at the same goal. What happens in between is irrelevant, as killing is UNIVERSALLY (known to both winners and losers) condemned, now, before, in the future, here, in China or in Lithuania.


Slapper

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2010, 07:29:56 AM »
Read fool.  I said they hate us for other reasons.  Where in your poll is our actions on WWII indicated?  It's not.  At least try to use your brain.

Noooo dude, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo.

I was referring to some American's (present or past) ambivalence when it comes to some of our actions. I mean, we have no problem whatsoever in condemning violent action when someone else is doing it. Now, when WE do it, many Americans sort of feel that there has to be some righteousness involved. And I'm saying no, there isn't any. We just cover it up a lot better.

Then again, a country like the USA, having as violent a past as we have (decimation of the Native American population, slavery, Guantánamo, Viet Nam, et cetera), these type of arguments ought not come as a surprise.

This is the reason I keep telling you to take your time when reading someone's post...



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Killing civilians is absolutely justified.  Who the fuck do you think is supporting soldiers?  You think they're growing their own crops?  Making their own clothes?  Building their weapons?  These are done by civilians, and it's perfectly acceptable to target them.

Well, the United Nations does not think so. Furthermore, the government of the United States of America does not think so. Needless to say, I do not think so.

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We do not do that here in the US.  Native American history and our brutalization of those people was covered extensively.  Especially considering that we don't treat them much better today.  Your claim is not a fact, it's just that - a claim.

Whaaaaaat??? Extensively??? Where???


Skip8282

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2010, 07:48:35 AM »
Noooo dude, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo, noooo.

I was referring to some American's (present or past) ambivalence when it comes to some of our actions. I mean, we have no problem whatsoever in condemning violent action when someone else is doing it. Now, when WE do it, many Americans sort of feel that there has to be some righteousness involved. And I'm saying no, there isn't any. We just cover it up a lot better.

Then again, a country like the USA, having as violent a past as we have (decimation of the Native American population, slavery, Guantánamo, Viet Nam, et cetera), these type of arguments ought not come as a surprise.


You're still not getting it.  You're trying to equate the actions and outcomes and claim it's the same while disregarding the reasoning behind the actions.  The Nazis wrongly blamed the Jews.  We did not wrongly blame the Japanese.  Obviously the internments were not justified, but the bombs were.  To those Americans who we threw into camps...it was wrong and serves as yet another scar on our nation.


Comparatively speaking, we are still a young nation.  If you wanted to start point out Europian, Asian, or African atrocities, the lists would dwarf this country.  There's hypocrisy both from the US and other nations.



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Well, the United Nations does not think so. Furthermore, the government of the United States of America does not think so. Needless to say, I do not think so.

The UN's another irrelevant organization and I curse the day the Bush's put so much reliance on them.  But, there are a lot of pussies in American gov't, so I would agree, at least currently, that's the stance.


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Whaaaaaat??? Extensively??? Where???




Open a book.

Slapper

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2010, 09:08:13 AM »
You're still not getting it.  You're trying to equate the actions and outcomes and claim it's the same while disregarding the reasoning behind the actions. The Nazis wrongly blamed the Jews.  We did not wrongly blame the Japanese.  Obviously the internments were not justified, but the bombs were.  To those Americans who we threw into camps...it was wrong and serves as yet another scar on our nation.

And that's why you're not getting it, because the very same "reasoning" in killing hundreds of thousands and even millions of innocent civilians was, and is, used time and time again as the basis to commit the worst attrocities known to mankind. What I'm saying is that if the outcome we seek by taking violent action involves massacring millions or hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings... the we cannot conclude that reasons for us to take that action is righteous.

There is a difference between a civilian and a military target. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour they were attacking a military target. Their goal was solely militaristic: To destroy the Pacific fleet. When we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed two civilian targets. We were trying to murder as many human beings as possible. There is a HUGE difference. The Japanese civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were as innocent, as observed in the UN charters, as the Jews that were put to death during the Holocaust. Again, this is not an opinion. This is coming directly from the Geneva Convention of 1949.

What we did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the equivalent of settling an intelectual debate by shooting the other person in the head, twice, with a bazooka, at close range, when the other person was ready, and the shooter knew it, to concede.

I know it's hard to digest, but yes, WE did it. Judging by the outcome, namely killing innocent civilians, we were no better than the Nazis. I'd call it the darkest page in American history.

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Comparatively speaking, we are still a young nation.  If you wanted to start point out Europian, Asian, or African atrocities, the lists would dwarf this country.

Now, that's an ignorant statement... if there ever was one. What country dwarfs our 350-year killing spree?

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There's hypocrisy both from the US and other nations.

And you know what? There may very well be, but I can only worry about the government I have some kind of control over, and its actions, not some foreign entity.

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The UN's another irrelevant organization and I curse the day the Bush's put so much reliance on them.  But, there are a lot of pussies in American gov't, so I would agree, at least currently, that's the stance.

I guess international consensus means nothing to you.

I guess the very same UN conventions and treaties (which we helped draft and signed) that protect civilians (and others) during times of war mean nothing to you.

I guess laws mean nothing to you.

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2010, 09:15:59 AM »
And I can get deeper into the subject, but I have a feeling I'm going to lose you in the process.

I mean... the very same reasoning used by Truman to rationalize his order to drop two atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, namely "for the greater good/save (American) lives", could be used as the basis to pretty much kill anything at any time. I mean, if the "greater good" is what we're after, why don't we kill all the baby boomers? They're going to be a HUGE burden on the younger generations, so, using Truman supporter's greater good argument... they're fair game!!

I mean, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are a hard pill to swallow here in the US. I remember back in the 90s the Smithsonian was trying to put together an exhibit on Hiroshima and Nagasaki from a Japanese civilian perspective and... it eventually had to desist due to pressure here. It takes balls. I mean, Jews (the other losers) are given the michrophone every time they want to vent on the Holocaust. Yet the Japanese or German civilian perspective is always silenced here in the US. That's why you have many people thinking all Germans and Japanese peoples were somehow involved in their side's attrocities: Because we're not allowed to know.

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2010, 09:31:01 AM »
Bottom line:

Every country in the world does some fvvcked up shit.  It's that simple.  They're not saints, and neither are we. 

However, since we live here, we're okay with the evil shit we do.  We can have a nice circle jerk party about "well, their religion is worse and they're more evil than we are!" but the truth is that the USA has been much more "effective" at reaching our goals than them, period. 

End of story.  There are no saints present.

Slapper

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2010, 09:52:52 AM »
Bottom line:

Every country in the world does some fvvcked up shit.  It's that simple.  They're not saints, and neither are we.  

However, since we live here, we're okay with the evil shit we do.  We can have a nice circle jerk party about "well, their religion is worse and they're more evil than we are!" but the truth is that the USA has been much more "effective" at reaching our goals than them, period.  

End of story.  There are no saints present.

Well... no. We're the most successful of a handful of colonialistic countries at the moment, but we can't worry about other countries. We have plenty with ours. And when history comes knocking and we're asked to account for our actions... it's kinda not going to worry about what other people have done, it's going to judge us, Americans, and how we reacted to our government's decisions (atomic bombs, Viet Nam, Korea, et cetera).

Let's just hope they take the 60s movements into account. Because when China becomes the world's only superpower... rest asured their game is going to be to picture the USA as the worst evil in the history of human kind. And right now we're playing the part extremely well. So... looking at it from a Chinese perspective, I'd assume they're going to turn the "greater good" argument against us and try to take us out. History never fails you know.

To my regret.

Skip8282

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2010, 10:13:37 AM »
And that's why you're not getting it, because the very same "reasoning" in killing hundreds of thousands and even millions of innocent civilians was, and is, used time and time again as the basis to commit the worst attrocities known to mankind. What I'm saying is that if the outcome we seek by taking violent action involves massacring millions or hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings... the we cannot conclude that reasons for us to take that action is righteous.

Of course we can conclude that.  These were not innocent people.  They were helping the Japanese gov't in its conquest.  Context matters regardless of your bullshit claims.  The reasoning is not the same, you're just not bright enough to understand the difference.


 
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There is a difference between a civilian and a military target. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour they were attacking a military target. Their goal was solely militaristic: To destroy the Pacific fleet. When we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed two civilian targets. We were trying to murder as many human beings as possible.
 


More clueless babble.  These cities were selected for several reasons, causualties only being one.

No, they were not innocent and I think it's one of the best pages in American history.  And their goal was not "soley militaristic".  Again, your claims are not facts.  They had to hit our military first.  It's not like they could have struck LA and turned around to deal with our navy.  Fortunately for us, they did not get another chance.

Try educating yourself about the Japanese and take look at the Nanking Massacre.



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Judging by the outcome, namely killing innocent civilians, we were no better than the Nazis.



Exactly why you still don't get it.




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Now, that's an ignorant statement... if there ever was one. What country dwarfs our 350-year killing spree?



Are you actually that dumb?  The atomic bombs didn't even hit the millions in casualties.  Joseph Stalin ALONE is way over that.  Again, educate yourself.  Mao, Lenin, Pol-pot, Pasha, Wilhelm II...



And I can get deeper into the subject, but I have a feeling I'm going to lose you in the process.

Deeper?  You can't even keep up.  You're claiming the "reasoning" is the same and that other countries don't dwarf us in terms of killings.  ::)

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2010, 10:19:32 AM »
And...

... I rest my case.

 ;D ;D



You rest your case believing that there is no difference between a display of force to end a war and a systematic torture, starvation and destruction of a select few groups of people based on their heritage and/or religion.... You're mensa material for sure.

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2010, 11:41:48 AM »
HIROSHIMA
WHO DISAGREED WITH THE ATOMIC BOMBING?

~~~DWIGHT EISENHOWER
"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63




~~~ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY
(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.




~~~HERBERT HOOVER
On May 28, 1945, Hoover visited President Truman and suggested a way to end the Pacific war quickly: "I am convinced that if you, as President, will make a shortwave broadcast to the people of Japan - tell them they can have their Emperor if they surrender, that it will not mean unconditional surrender except for the militarists - you'll get a peace in Japan - you'll have both wars over."

Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 347.

On August 8, 1945, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, Hoover wrote to Army and Navy Journal publisher Colonel John Callan O'Laughlin, "The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul."

quoted from Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 635.

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."

- quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142

Hoover biographer Richard Norton Smith has written: "Use of the bomb had besmirched America's reputation, he [Hoover] told friends. It ought to have been described in graphic terms before being flung out into the sky over Japan."

Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 349-350.

In early May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded in his diary, "I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."

Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 350-351.




~~~GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR
MacArthur biographer William Manchester has described MacArthur's reaction to the issuance by the Allies of the Potsdam Proclamation to Japan: "...the Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary."

William Manchester, American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, pg. 512.

Norman Cousins was a consultant to General MacArthur during the American occupation of Japan. Cousins writes of his conversations with MacArthur, "MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed." He continues, "When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.




~~~JOSEPH GREW
(Under Sec. of State)
In a February 12, 1947 letter to Henry Stimson (Sec. of War during WWII), Grew responded to the defense of the atomic bombings Stimson had made in a February 1947 Harpers magazine article:

"...in the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision.

"If surrender could have been brought about in May, 1945, or even in June or July, before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the [Pacific] war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer."

Grew quoted in Barton Bernstein, ed.,The Atomic Bomb, pg. 29-32.




~~~JOHN McCLOY
(Assistant Sec. of War)
"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs."

McCloy quoted in James Reston, Deadline, pg. 500.




~~~RALPH BARD
(Under Sec. of the Navy)
On June 28, 1945, a memorandum written by Bard the previous day was given to Sec. of War Henry Stimson. It stated, in part:

"Following the three-power [July 1945 Potsdam] conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position [they were about to declare war on Japan] and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the [retention of the] Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

"I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program." He concluded the memorandum by noting, "The only way to find out is to try it out."

Memorandum on the Use of S-1 Bomb, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 77, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 307-308).

Later Bard related, "...it definitely seemed to me that the Japanese were becoming weaker and weaker. They were surrounded by the Navy. They couldn't get any imports and they couldn't export anything. Naturally, as time went on and the war developed in our favor it was quite logical to hope and expect that with the proper kind of a warning the Japanese would then be in a position to make peace, which would have made it unnecessary for us to drop the bomb and have had to bring Russia in...".

quoted in Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 144-145, 324.

Bard also asserted, "I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted." He continued, "In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb. Thus, it wouldn't have been necessary for us to disclose our nuclear position and stimulate the Russians to develop the same thing much more rapidly than they would have if we had not dropped the bomb."

War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.




~~~LEWIS STRAUSS
(Special Assistant to the Sec. of the Navy)
Strauss recalled a recommendation he gave to Sec. of the Navy James Forrestal before the atomic bombing of Hiroshima:

"I proposed to Secretary Forrestal that the weapon should be demonstrated before it was used. Primarily it was because it was clear to a number of people, myself among them, that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate... My proposal to the Secretary was that the weapon should be demonstrated over some area accessible to Japanese observers and where its effects would be dramatic. I remember suggesting that a satisfactory place for such a demonstration would be a large forest of cryptomeria trees not far from Tokyo. The cryptomeria tree is the Japanese version of our redwood... I anticipated that a bomb detonated at a suitable height above such a forest... would lay the trees out in windrows from the center of the explosion in all directions as though they were matchsticks, and, of course, set them afire in the center. It seemed to me that a demonstration of this sort would prove to the Japanese that we could destroy any of their cities at will... Secretary Forrestal agreed wholeheartedly with the recommendation..."

Strauss added, "It seemed to me that such a weapon was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion, that once used it would find its way into the armaments of the world...".

quoted in Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 145, 325.




~~~PAUL NITZE
(Vice Chairman, U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey)
In 1950 Nitze would recommend a massive military buildup, and in the 1980s he was an arms control negotiator in the Reagan administration. In July of 1945 he was assigned the task of writing a strategy for the air attack on Japan. Nitze later wrote:

"The plan I devised was essentially this: Japan was already isolated from the standpoint of ocean shipping. The only remaining means of transportation were the rail network and intercoastal shipping, though our submarines and mines were rapidly eliminating the latter as well. A concentrated air attack on the essential lines of transportation, including railroads and (through the use of the earliest accurately targetable glide bombs, then emerging from development) the Kammon tunnels which connected Honshu with Kyushu, would isolate the Japanese home islands from one another and fragment the enemy's base of operations. I believed that interdiction of the lines of transportation would be sufficiently effective so that additional bombing of urban industrial areas would not be necessary.

"While I was working on the new plan of air attack... concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view was that Japan would capitulate by November 1945."

Paul Nitze, From Hiroshima to Glasnost, pg. 36-37 (my emphasis)

The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that was primarily written by Nitze and reflected his reasoning:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

quoted in Barton Bernstein, The Atomic Bomb, pg. 52-56.

In his memoir, written in 1989, Nitze repeated,

"Even without the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it seemed highly unlikely, given what we found to have been the mood of the Japanese government, that a U.S. invasion of the islands [scheduled for November 1, 1945] would have been necessary."

Paul Nitze, From Hiroshima to Glasnost, pg. 44-45.



Slapper

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2010, 11:43:01 AM »
You rest your case believing that there is no difference between a display of force to end a war and a systematic torture, starvation and destruction of a select few groups of people based on their heritage and/or religion.... You're mensa material for sure.

Gee, another patriotic bright mind.

We're so fucked!

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2010, 12:13:06 PM »
Of course we can conclude that.  These were not innocent people.  They were helping the Japanese gov't in its conquest.

But were they not-innocent people because YOU say they were not innocent people or because you have undeniable proof that they were all, or the majority was, part of the Japanese war machine? I mean... on all the websites I clicked on, out of the total 1,240,000 hits on "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" I have yet to find one which does not refer to those killed by the bombs as "victims" (civilians) and not as "casualties" (military).

Now, I do not know who to believe... you or the 1.2 million websites...

Quote
More clueless babble.  These cities were selected for several reasons, causualties only being one.

Right, and that helps your cause.  ::) ::)

Quote
No, they were not innocent and I think it's one of the best pages in American history.  And their goal was not "soley militaristic".  Again, your claims are not facts.  They had to hit our military first.  It's not like they could have struck LA and turned around to deal with our navy.  Fortunately for us, they did not get another chance.

Well, mine is not a claim, it is conventional wisdom. Pearl Harbour was a military base. The Japanese who attacked PH had ships and planes and guns and soldiers in mind, and that's what they attacked. Thus their goals were solely militaristic. Whether they could've attacked LA or Phoenix or downtown Detroit is just hypothetics. Hence it is not reality. I ask you to stick to reality, not to what could've/maybe/sort of happen.

Quote
Try educating yourself about the Japanese and take look at the Nanking Massacre.

Yeah sure, but I'm talking about our killas. I expect the Japanese civilians to take care of theirs.

Quote
Are you actually that dumb?  The atomic bombs didn't even hit the millions in casualties.  Joseph Stalin ALONE is way over that.  Again, educate yourself.  Mao, Lenin, Pol-pot, Pasha, Wilhelm II...

If you read again you'll notice I do not say the atomic bombs killed millions. YOU just said it. I was referring to the Holocaust. You do know there's a difference between what I say and what you think I said right? The proper way to go about it is to ask for clarification, not to take a failed observation and build on it.  8)

Quote
You can't even keep up.  You're claiming the "reasoning" is the same and that other countries don't dwarf us in terms of killings.

Sure yeah. And I stand behind my argument. Tally up all the innocent civilian deaths due to direct and indirect military action (by country) and you tell me who is better at this mass killings game than us (aside from China and Russia).

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2010, 12:19:40 PM »
Slapper you should read "Rape of Nanking."  It might give you a different perspective of Japan's wartime ambitions, conduct, etc. 

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2010, 12:38:08 PM »
Slapper you should read "Rape of Nanking."  It might give you a different perspective of Japan's wartime ambitions, conduct, etc.  

No, I know the Japanese weren't the Nuns of the Holy Mary. Please, don't think that just because I do not blame them for precipitating what eventually happened to their civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki somehow translates into some sort of acquiescence toward them on my part. The Japanese military fuckers had it coming too. I mean, they rolled the dice and they lost. Not only that, the Chinese, once they become the superpower are going to be seeking major pay back. So if I were Japanese I'd be looking to relocate their islands further into the pacific.

It's the civilian victims I am worried about. Nowadays, regardless of war, everything and everyone is fair game. No one respects any one. I mean, my understanding of how to carry out a war is that described in the Geneva Conventions: Choose the unpopulated area, put army A and army B in that area and let them fuck each other up until there's no one left. Whoever wins gets to collect the taxes and run the government and that's that. Somehow, nowadays, it doesn't work that way. And it's not because of the civilians, I can tell you that.

Now, I still do not understand why we dropped two atomic bombs on two civilian targets. I know we wanted to impress the Soviets, but that's no reason... I mean, Truman knew Emperor Hirohito wanted to surrender prior to dropping the nukes with the only requisite being that he did not go through the compulsory blow-job gangbang of the winners. The more I read about it, the more it sounds as though Truman was (mis)led to believe (by the OSS) that, unless the US took decisive action against the Japanese, the Soviets were next in line to fight the Americans. Which would explain many things.  

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2010, 12:56:07 PM »
No, I know the Japanese weren't the Nuns of the Holy Mary. Please, don't think that just because I do not blame them for precipitating what eventually happened to their civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki somehow translates into some sort of acquiescence on my part. The Japanese military fuckers had it coming too. I mean, they rolled the dice and they lost. Not only that, the Chinese, once they become the superpower are going to be seeking major pay back. So if I were Japanese I'd be looking to relocate their islands further into the pacific.

It's the civilian victims I am worried about. Nowadays, regardless of war, everything and everyone is fair game. No one respects any one. I mean, my understanding of how to carry out a war is that described in the Geneva Conventions: Choose the unpopulated area, put army A and army B in that area and let them fuck each other up until there's no one left. Whoever wins gets to collect the taxes and run the government and that's that. Somehow, nowadays, it doesn't work that way. And it's not because of the civilians, I can tell you that.

Now, I still do not understand why we dropped two atomic bombs on two civilian targets. I know we wanted to impress the Russians, but that's no reason... I mean, Truman knew Emperor Hirohito wanted a surrender without having to go through the compulsory blow-job gangbang of the winners. The more I read about it, the more it sounds as though Truman was (mis)led to believe (by the OSS) that, unless the US took decisive action against the Japanese, the Soviets were next in line to fight the Americans. Which would explain many things. 

That's why I recommend you read Rape of Nanking.  The Japanese raped, tortured, and murdered over 300,000 Chinese civilians, because they didn't want to keep any POWs.  This was done in a matter of months.  One of the worst (but least discussed) massacres in recorded history.

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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2010, 01:01:07 PM »
Quote

Sure yeah. And I stand behind my argument. Tally up all the innocent civilian deaths due to direct and indirect military action (by country) and you tell me who is better at this mass killings game than us (aside from China and Russia).



Hahaha...first it's show me any country...now it's, well don't count China and Russia.  Way to show that lack of intelligence.



But were they not-innocent people because YOU say they were not innocent people or because you have undeniable proof that they were all, or the majority was, part of the Japanese war machine? I mean... on all the websites I clicked on, out of the total 1,240,000 hits on "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" I have yet to find one which does not refer to those killed by the bombs as "victims" (civilians) and not as "casualties" (military).

Now, I do not know who to believe... you or the 1.2 million websites...

Right, and that helps your cause.  ::) ::)

Well, mine is not a claim, it is conventional wisdom. Pearl Harbour was a military base. The Japanese who attacked PH had ships and planes and guns and soldiers in mind, and that's what they attacked. Thus their goals were solely militaristic. Whether they could've attacked LA or Phoenix or downtown Detroit is just hypothetics. Hence it is not reality. I ask you to stick to reality, not to what could've/maybe/sort of happen.

Yeah sure, but I'm talking about our killas. I expect the Japanese civilians to take care of theirs.

If you read again you'll notice I do not say the atomic bombs killed millions. YOU just said it. I was referring to the Holocaust. You do know there's a difference between what I say and what you think I said right? The proper way to go about it is to ask for clarification, not to take a failed observation and build on it.  8)

Sure yeah. And I stand behind my argument. Tally up all the innocent civilian deaths due to direct and indirect military action (by country) and you tell me who is better at this mass killings game than us (aside from China and Russia).


As for the rest of your dribble, you and I are just going in circles...



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Re: Why Does Jon Stewart Always Own Fox News
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2010, 01:07:00 PM »
That's why I recommend you read Rape of Nanking.  The Japanese raped, tortured, and murdered over 300,000 Chinese civilians, because they didn't want to keep any POWs.  This was done in a matter of months.  One of the worst (but least discussed) massacres in recorded history.

Yes, but I'm not Japanese, I'm an American. If the Japanese choose to do that, it's their problem. I certainly do not want any Americans taking part in civilian massacres. My problem is that our military actions are not talked about at all from a critical perspective. I mean, we just invaded a country (Iraq) for the second time, we've humiliated their peoples beyond belief, the US-sponsored sanctions killed millions of Iraqis, and yet... people show no shame whatsoever. You go to Germany and you'll find out that people are pissed mad with the older generations not standing up to Hitler and putting such a dark stain in such a glorious past. Over here? 15 million dead motherfuckers and we boast about it like we just invented water.