Author Topic: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation  (Read 4709 times)

Dos Equis

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Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« on: April 10, 2010, 09:33:34 AM »
Sort of a complicated scenario.  I don't support mandated prayer in public schools, but student-led prayer is a little different.  Can still be very thorny because of peer pressure.


Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
By Jana Winter  - FOXNews.com
   
An Indiana public school board is not giving up its school prayer without a fight.

In a rare decision, Greenwood High School is fighting to keep its years-long tradition of holding a student-led prayer during graduation ceremonies.

"For us to just kowtow and just say, 'Yes, sir. Sorry, sir,' well, we're not going to do that," said school board president Joe Farley. "This board is prepared to take on the courts."

In September, members of Greenwood's senior class gathered in the auditorium to vote on whether to include a prayer in their graduation ceremony. The majority of students voted in favor of the prayer. Eric Workman, this year's top-ranked student and expected valedictorian, voted against it.

Last month, hoping to quash the tradition permanently before his May 28 commencement, Workman, now 18, filed a lawsuit with the backing of the Indiana branch of the ACLU against the school district and the high school principal.


This is just one of many similar instances of school-prayer-related controversy unfolding in districts across the country; in almost every case, prayer in school has come up short.

-- In 2000, the Supreme Court ruled that students at a Texas public high school could not vote to approve holding student-led prayers over the public address system during school football games.

-- In 1992, a Supreme Court ruling outlawed prayers by clergy at public school graduations.

-- Non-denominational prayer has also been deemed unconstitutional.

"A lot of these schools, to avoid lawsuits or fights, will settle or change their practices," said Charles Haynes, senior scholar for the Freedom Forum First Amendment Center in Washington, D.C., referencing a case in Florida last year in which a complaint by a student immediately resulted in an apology and reversal in school policy district-wide.

Last month, student-led prayer offered daily through the public address system at Alabama's Alexandria High School stopped after a student questioned its legality.

"A lot of school districts take the path of least resistance," Haynes said.


The Greenwood school board president says he's well aware of what has transpired in other districts. But he said the board, with the support of the community, is prepared to spend tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a formal ruling from the courts. The school is expected to present its arguments in Indiana's federal Southern District at the end of the month.

"I think one of the reasons why people go along with the flow is you're dealing with a student and taxpayers' money. Then the ACLU gets involved and they're expecting the school to pay for everything, and you don't want to put the funds at risk.  But there just comes a time when you just have to stand up," Farley said.

Ken Falk, Workman's lawyer and the ACLU's legal director in Indiana, said he's surprised that anyone would fight back against such strong case law.

"You cannot have people's rights depend on majority rule — that's the whole purpose here — the majority cannot vote to establish religion," he said. "It's pretty straightforward. That just isn't allowed."

But it may not be that cut and dried.

Haynes said the school's case here sounds like a long shot because student election of school prayer is a specific issue that the court has ruled unconstitutional.

But there are efforts underway, he said, to keep looking for cases to refine the law and push it in the other direction, where students would decide whether or not to have a prayer.

Some states, including Texas, have passed laws that say that students who have primary control over speech and are chosen to speak using neutral criteria may not be censored if they say something either religious or nonreligious.

"I think eventually the Supreme Court will uphold that model, but it hasn't yet," Haynes said. "That's the only way we'll probably see student prayer at graduation."

Haynes thinks this is an uphill battle, but not impossible. "The court has changed," he changed. "There now may very well be five votes that say if students want to do this, they can do this."

Joe Farley's district could be in position to lead the charge.

"Their desire is to have an injunction so that not just this year but in the future this won't be allowed to happen or anything that could be construed as anything religious," Farley said. "We've had this tradition for a long time, for as long as I can remember, so we want to wait for a judicial decision and then we'll decide how to proceed."

Judy L. Woods, an attorney from Bose McKinney & Evans, which is representing the school district and principal, said:

“It is a difficult issue and one that the school system stakes seriously, and we want to do what the law requires but we also want to respect that there are a variety of viewpoints out there.

“There is a very fine line in these cases between free speech and freedom of religion clauses, and we’ll be looking at both of those.”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/05/indiana-school-fighting-school-prayer/

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 09:49:23 AM »
Unless he can prove student lead prayer causes direct, tangible, real harm the tiny tit should STFU.

Eliminating frivolous law suits would save money and time for important shit.

Skip8282

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 10:13:47 AM »
Unless he can prove student lead prayer causes direct, tangible, real harm the tiny tit should STFU.

Eliminating frivolous law suits would save money and time for important shit.



Anytime somebody is forced to pray or forced to listen to some prayer about a non-existent, mythical God, it's harmful.

Straw Man

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 10:23:35 AM »
If students want to pray before graduation they can get togerther somewhere and do it but why should eveyone have to sit there and listen to it.   

JohnC1908

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 10:26:38 AM »
As a Christian, I can't get on board with this. Straw Man has it right...forcing people to listen to your beliefs in a public forum isn't right. You want to pray at school/graduation then go to private school.

Dos Equis

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 10:27:39 AM »


Anytime somebody is forced to pray or forced to listen to some prayer about a non-existent, mythical God, it's harmful.

I disagree.  I think that is true in most cases when kids are involved in a state-controlled entity (like public school) when they are a captive audience.  

Not necessarily true when you're dealing with adults.  

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 11:26:55 AM »


Anytime somebody is forced to pray or forced to listen to some prayer about a non-existent, mythical God, it's harmful.

Anyone so gay/lame that they cannot endure a display of faith without emotional scarring should commit suicide. Nature hates weakness and we'd all be better served without their DNA in the gene pool.

Straw Man

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 11:37:59 AM »
Anyone so gay/lame that they cannot endure a display of faith without emotional scarring should commit suicide. Nature hates weakness and we'd all be better served without their DNA in the gene pool.
How many prayers dooes someone have to sit through to be non lame/gay. I assume we have to let all the major religions give a prayer and then someone from the agnostic/atheist camp will have to get up there and say you only have yourself to thank

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 11:46:38 AM »
How many prayers dooes someone have to sit through to be non lame/gay. I assume we have to let all the major religions give a prayer and then someone from the agnostic/atheist camp will have to get up there and say you only have yourself to thank

Someone who disbelieved strongly wouldn't be affected by their silliness on any level. I'm actually not for school prayer but don't see any reason why one person's lack of faith should be imposed on others, especially when that one person can sit silently for a few minutes.... longer if you're talking about black people, LOL!

An atheist shouldn't have to give words (in the scenario you described) unless it's purely an exercise in ego or they can admit feeling left out.

Straw Man

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 11:54:15 AM »
Someone who disbelieved strongly wouldn't be affected by their silliness on any level. I'm actually not for school prayer but
don't see any reason why one person's lack of faith should be imposed on others, especially when that one person can sit silently for a few minutes.... longer if you're talking about black people, LOL!

An atheist shouldn't have to give words (in the scenario you described) unless it's purely an exercise in ego or they can admit feeling left out.
you don't see why one persons lack of faith should be imposed on others but you have no problem if another persons faith is imposed on others?
 

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 12:11:13 PM »
you don't see why one persons lack of faith should be imposed on others but you have no problem if another persons faith is imposed on others?
 

Faith, by definition, cannot be imposed upon non-believers. :)

People just should be so gay about simple crap to get attention.

Economy dying, people losing everything, a war and tons of other important crap going on and we've got courts tied up with stupid crap like this because someone ends up feeling a little bad. Boo Friggen hoo, people! Move to Somalia for a few years and they'd be happier than shit to be in America and occasionally have to sit through some idiot's boring prayer for a few minutes.

Dos Equis

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 12:22:55 PM »
Faith, by definition, cannot be imposed upon non-believers. :)

People just should be so gay about simple crap to get attention.

Economy dying, people losing everything, a war and tons of other important crap going on and we've got courts tied up with stupid crap like this because someone ends up feeling a little bad. Boo Friggen hoo, people! Move to Somalia for a few years and they'd be happier than shit to be in America and occasionally have to sit through some idiot's boring prayer for a few minutes.

lol.  Preach!   :)

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 12:44:46 PM »
Faith, by definition, cannot be imposed upon non-believers. :)

People just should be so gay about simple crap to get attention.

Economy dying, people losing everything, a war and tons of other important crap going on and we've got courts tied up with stupid crap like this because someone ends up feeling a little bad. Boo Friggen hoo, people! Move to Somalia for a few years and they'd be happier than shit to be in America and occasionally have to sit through some idiot's boring prayer for a few minutes.
. Why again should prayer be allowed and if allowed how many different religions are going to be allowed?  I assume at the very least we'd have to also include Muslim, Jewish and Hindu prayers if there is at least one student who wants it and the non-religious types would have to beoffered some equivalent opportunity, perhaps to give thanks for those who they think helped rhem to graduate........or people can just do all that in private or outside of the public school event

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 01:06:34 PM »
. Why again should prayer be allowed and if allowed how many different religions are going to be allowed?  I assume at the very least we'd have to also include Muslim, Jewish and Hindu prayers if there is at least one student who wants it and the non-religious types would have to beoffered some equivalent opportunity, perhaps to give thanks for those who they think helped rhem to graduate........or people can just do all that in private or outside of the public school event


Because Atheism isn't a religion, FFS!! :) How can you actively observe not believing in something?!

Long as Muslims, Hindus, Jews or anyone else keeps it short I'm OK. I'd rather not be bored by their observance but wouldn't feel in any way empowered by limiting it.

I'm of a mind that religion (or a lack thereof) should be a private matter but we're not talking about me, LOL!

We're basically asking several important questions and you're intentionally mucking it up with stupid questions, err I meant rhetoric. :) Stop being so intellectually lazy, dammit! :P

Straw Man

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 01:19:33 PM »


Because Atheism isn't a religion, FFS!! :) How can you actively observe not believing in something?!

Long as Muslims, Hindus, Jews or anyone else keeps it short I'm OK. I'd rather not be bored by their observance but wouldn't feel in any way empowered by limiting it.

I'm of a mind that religion (or a lack thereof) should be a private matter but we're not talking about me, LOL!

We're basically asking several important questions and you're intentionally mucking it up with stupid questions, err I meant rhetoric. :) Stop being so intellectually lazy, dammit! :P
.  Non-belief in a super natural deity is the mirror opposite of belief in one.   If non-believers have to sit patiently and respectfully while belivers give thanks to their favorite god then belivers can do the same while non-believers give thanks to whever they feel owes thanks.   Why the lack of tolerance for non-believer.........
Of course the simple solution is to do your prayers somewhere else.  I'm sure your god will still get the message

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 01:36:42 PM »
.  Non-belief in a super natural deity is the mirror opposite of belief in one.   If non-believers have to sit patiently and respectfully while belivers give thanks to their favorite god then belivers can do the same while non-believers give thanks to whever they feel owes thanks.   Why the lack of tolerance for non-believer.........
Of course the simple solution is to do your prayers somewhere else.  I'm sure your god will still get the message

The simplest solution is still STFU, but we can't advocate that in America because someone's feelings would get hurt, LOL!

Since you're unwilling to address the bigger issues it's safe to say there's no actual harm in the practice.

Tolerance is something all religions could do better but has very little relevance to this discussion.

But you are being immensely hypocritical because this opinion is 100% contrary to all the silliness spewed about healthcare reform on GetBig. All the greater good nonsense goes out the window when there's any chance of libs being inconvenienced.

Straw Man

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 01:46:14 PM »
The simplest solution is still STFU, but we can't advocate that in America because someone's feelings would get hurt, LOL!

Since you're unwilling to address the bigger issues it's safe to say there's no actual harm in the practice.

Tolerance is something all religions could do better but has very little relevance to this discussion.

But you are being immensely hypocritical because this opinion is 100% contrary to all the silliness spewed about healthcare reform on GetBig. All the greater good nonsense goes out the window when there's any chance of libs being inconvenienced.
. An even simplier solution would be to pray somewhere else.

Skip8282

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 01:55:31 PM »
Anyone so gay/lame that they cannot endure a display of faith without emotional scarring should commit suicide. Nature hates weakness and we'd all be better served without their DNA in the gene pool.


This is comedy at its finest coming from someone who cries like a bitch when Hugo deletes one of his posts.

The prayer isn't the issue.  The issue is we're teaching kids that it's ok to force others to listen or partake in a fairy tale.  At what point does it end?

Forcing others to participate or listen to another's religious participation isn't tolerance - it's the very definition of intolerance. 

And a "short" period of time is about as relative as it gets.

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 02:07:48 PM »
. An even simplier solution would be to pray somewhere else.

Not believing somewhere else or being secure enough to not give a damn would be equally easy.

Skip,

No one gives a shit a shit about Yugo's faggotry beyond how amusing the monthly meltdowns and repeated bald faced lies are.

Someone secure in their shit isn't threatened by situations like that. If at a party and people are doing drugs I wouldn't take any. Some things are just that simple. I read all manner of stupid or gay crap on here and have never even considered thinking bodybuilding was a sport. :)

Skip8282

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 02:34:50 PM »


Skip,

No one gives a shit a shit about Yugo's faggotry beyond how amusing the monthly meltdowns and repeated bald faced lies are.

Someone secure in their shit isn't threatened by situations like that. If at a party and people are doing drugs I wouldn't take any. Some things are just that simple. I read all manner of stupid or gay crap on here and have never even considered thinking bodybuilding was a sport. :)




Being threatened is not the issue.  Teaching kids that it's ok to force others to listen to or partake in another's beliefs is the issue.  Where does the line get drawn?  And you're right it is simple - they should do their fucking prayers without affecting the lives of others.

drkaje

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 03:00:33 PM »


Being threatened is not the issue.  Teaching kids that it's ok to force others to listen to or partake in another's beliefs is the issue.  Where does the line get drawn?  And you're right it is simple - they should do their fucking prayers without affecting the lives of others.

People always try to censor things that make them uncomfortable. It's better to teach our kids "once and a while you have to shut up and get along with people" than "keep whining and eventually someone will accommodate you".

Again, there is no line. Whatever line exists (beyond yelling fire in a crowded movie theater) is a matter of political climates and not some absolute right or wrong. Even if there is a line, yours would be different from mine.

If someone wanted to enact a law saying you must pray, say the pledge, or follow a state religion... that's another story. Having laws changed every few years according to majority whim or to silence a loud minority is far more dangerous our rights end up getting eroded.

Dos Equis

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 04:28:42 PM »
I agree with drkaje for the most part.  Much of the complaining we hear about prayer and religion is just plain dumb.  Most of them need to just shut the heck up already. 

I think it's a different story when kids are involved.  It's much more difficult for a kid to deal with peer pressure.  Plus they don't have the option of just not going to class.  They could possibly be ostracized if they choose to leave the room.  I don't think voting helps at all.  Way too much pressure.  That's not right IMO. 

That said, we have to keep in mind that prayer and Christianity are part of the fabric of our society.  Part of our history.  Something practiced by the overwhelming majority of the country.  While we do have to accommodate all beliefs and nonbeliefs, we don't have to censor prayer and religion from public life to cater to a handful of hypersensitive extremists. 

Straw Man

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2010, 04:31:27 PM »
I agree with drkaje for the most part.  Much of the complaining we hear about prayer and religion is just plain dumb.  Most of them need to just shut the heck up already. 

I think it's a different story when kids are involved.  It's much more difficult for a kid to deal with peer pressure.  Plus they don't have the option of just not going to class.  They could possibly be ostracized if they choose to leave the room.  I don't think voting helps at all.  Way too much pressure.  That's not right IMO. 

That said, we have to keep in mind that prayer and Christianity are part of the fabric of our society.  Part of our history.  Something practiced by the overwhelming majority of the country.  While we do have to accommodate all beliefs and nonbeliefs, we don't have to censor prayer and religion from public life to cater to a handful of hypersensitive extremists. 

no problem

just keep it out of public school and/or public school events

Dos Equis

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 04:47:31 PM »
no problem

just keep it out of public school and/or public school events

Wrong.  President Clinton clarified that kids do not have to check their faith at the school house door.  Read up on the "Revised Religious Guidelines for America's Public Schools."

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Re: Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2010, 04:57:55 PM »
Wrong.  President Clinton clarified that kids do not have to check their faith at the school house door.  Read up on the "Revised Religious Guidelines for America's Public Schools."

go back and read your first post on this thread

no group prayers at school functions 

if a kid wants to pray on his own that's fine