Indiana School Fighting to Keep Prayer at Graduation

[turrilli]

The long and short of it, the real reason such controversy exist in our current state is because the nature of the church and state argument has been perverted from its intent.

The original intention of the church and state argument was to prevent a federal sponsored church from being established, that's all it was. It was not to keep government and religion separate. There was no rule against public prayer, not for any religion. For crying out loud, congress printed and issued an official congressional bible to each freshman member until the 1930's.

Here's the simple solution, prayer is freedom of expression, if you don't like it then it's simple, just don't listen, don't pay attention. Every last one of us has been to some function, some event where we were either bored or uninterested, what did we do in those cases, we didn't pay attention, we didn't listen, we probably daydreamed...someone was speaking but during your little daydream I seriously doubt you heard one single word being said. It's not that hard, if you don't like it don't listen but to scoff and bitch about freedom of expression, which prayer is, well that's nothing short of ultimate stupidity and nothing short of bitching just to bitch. What are those that don't like the prayer worried about? Are they worried if they're in the same room that their ears might fall off due to prayer induced leprosy?

[Dos Equis]

The long and short of it, the real reason such controversy exist in our current state is because the nature of the church and state argument has been perverted from its intent.

The original intention of the church and state argument was to prevent a federal sponsored church from being established, that's all it was. It was not to keep government and religion separate. There was no rule against public prayer, not for any religion. For crying out loud, congress printed and issued an official congressional bible to each freshman member until the 1930's.

Here's the simple solution, prayer is freedom of expression, if you don't like it then it's simple, just don't listen, don't pay attention. Every last one of us has been to some function, some event where we were either bored or uninterested, what did we do in those cases, we didn't pay attention, we didn't listen, we probably daydreamed...someone was speaking but during your little daydream I seriously doubt you heard one single word being said. It's not that hard, if you don't like it don't listen but to scoff and bitch about freedom of expression, which prayer is, well that's nothing short of ultimate stupidity and nothing short of bitching just to bitch. What are those that don't like the prayer worried about? Are they worried if they're in the same room that their ears might fall off due to prayer induced leprosy?

I agree with much of this.  We've had chaplains on the Congressional payroll forever.  We have military chaplains paid for by the taxpayers.  Many other examples. 

One of the problems with state sanctioned prayer in public schools is you have government officials writing/approving prayers. 

[Straw Man]

I agree with much of this.  We've had chaplains on the Congressional payroll forever.  We have military chaplains paid for by the taxpayers.  Many other examples. 

One of the problems with state sanctioned prayer in public schools is you have government officials writing/approving prayers. 

LoL - you think that's the problem with STATE SANCTIONED prayer?

does the magic not work if it written/approved by the state

maybe we need to set up a new government agency to write and approve the prayers

[Dos Equis]

LoL - you think that's the problem with STATE SANCTIONED prayer?

does the magic not work if it written/approved by the state

maybe we need to set up a new government agency to write and approve the prayers

This is part of the reason I ignore you so much.  I said "one of the problems," not "the problem."   

[Straw Man]

This is part of the reason I ignore you so much.  I said "one of the problems," not "the problem."   

just thinking of it as one of the problems is absurd

[Skip8282]

I agree with much of this.  We've had chaplains on the Congressional payroll forever.  We have military chaplains paid for by the taxpayers.  Many other examples.  

One of the problems with state sanctioned prayer in public schools is you have government officials writing/approving prayers.  

Oddly, I don't have a problem with most of that.  In fact, I've got no problems giving churches a free pass on property taxes.  My problem arises when others are compelled to participate or are forced to witness such participation.  

[Dos Equis]

Oddly, I don't have a problem with most of that.  In fact, I've got no problems giving churches a free pass on property taxes.  My problem arises when others are compelled to participate or are forced to witness such participation.  

I don't have a problem with adults being "forced" to "witness" religious expression.  Entirely harmless.  This is where I really agree with drkaje.  People need to quit crying already. 

Nothing in the Constitution says or was intended to say that the public sector should be free of religious expression. 

You know how stupid it has become?  We had the ACLU fighting to force a state rep to take the fish symbol off his office door.  They've been scouring the country looking for historical crosses on government property.  It's ridiculous. 

[turrilli]

Oddly, I don't have a problem with most of that.  In fact, I've got no problems giving churches a free pass on property taxes.  My problem arises when others are compelled to participate or are forced to witness such participation.  

No one is ever forced to participate...this never happens. Just because you're in the same room as someone else praying does not mean you are being forced to pray. No one can force anyone to pray, it's not humanly possible.

As for being forced to witness prayer, everyone everywhere is "forced" to witness all sorts of things and ideas they may not agree with...that's the nature of life. You walk into your local WalMart and someone may have on a T-shirt that makes a statement you disagree with or how about this, you see someone wearing a Yankees hat but you're a Red Sox fan, you've now been forced to witness someone supporting the Yankees. No one is forcing you to wear a Yankees hat, no one is forcing you to like the Yankees just because you were in the same room as a Yankee fan.