Author Topic: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional  (Read 5157 times)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« on: April 15, 2010, 04:26:38 PM »
Score one for the paranoid anti-religious extremists.  At least for now.   

Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
April 15, 2010 - 4:49 PM | by: Mike Levine

The National Day of Prayer, honored in the United States for more than a half-century, is unconstitutional, a federal judge in Wisconsin has ruled.

In a 66-page opinion issued Thursday, U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb said the holiday violates the "establishment clause" of the First Amendment, which creates a separation of church and state.

"I understand that many may disagree with that conclusion and some may even view it as a criticism of prayer or those who pray," Crabb said in her opinion. "That is unfortunate. A determination that the government may not endorse a religious message is not a determination that the message itself is harmful, unimportant or undeserving of dissemination."

The opinion comes in a case filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based group of self-described "atheists" and "agnostics."

Crabb said her ruling is based on "relevant case law," and it does not prevent religious groups from organizing prayer services or prevent the President from discussing his views on prayer.

"The only issue decided in this case is that the federal government may not endorse prayer in a statute," Crabb said.

The Justice Department would not say whether it expects to appeal Crabb's ruling.

"We are reviewing the court's decision," a Justice Department spokesman said.

Within hours of the ruling, the ranking Republican on the House Judiciary Committee urged the Justice Department to "immediately" file an appeal.

"The decision undermines the values of religious freedom that America was founded upon," Rep. Lamar Smith, R-Tex., said in a statement. "What’s next?  Declaring the federal holiday for Christmas unconstitutional?"

Crabb said the ruling would not have any effect until any appeals are exhausted.

She insisted her ruling was not a judgment on the value of prayer.

"No one can doubt the important role that prayer plays in the spiritual life of a believer," Crabb said in her opinion. "In the best of times, people may pray as a way of expressing joy and thanks; during times of grief, many find that prayer provides comfort. Others may pray to give praise, seek forgiveness, ask for guidance or find the truth. ... However, recognizing the importance of prayer to many people does not mean that the government may enact a statute in support of it, any more than the government may encourage citizens to fast during the month of Ramadan, attend a synagogue, purify themselves in a sweat lodge or practice rune magic."

The National Day of Prayer was first established by Congress in 1952, with a more specific date for the holiday set in 1988. It is now observed on the first Thursday in May.

Smith said he can "assure" Americans that "Congress will do everything in its power to protect the National Day of Prayer."

On the holiday last year, President Obama issued a statement saying Americans have always "come together in moments of great challenge and uncertainty to humble themselves in prayer."

"In 1775, as the Continental Congress began the task of forging a new Nation, colonists were asked to observe a day of quiet humiliation and prayer," the statement said. "Almost a century later, as the flames of the Civil War burned from north to south, President Lincoln and the Congress once again asked the American people to pray as the fate of their Nation hung in the balance."

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/15/judge-natl-day-of-prayer-unconstitutional/

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 04:39:09 PM »
I think shit like this reflects bad on us atheists.  National Day of Prayer?  So fucking what.  Nobody is being forced to pray or listen to a prayer...hell, I don't even know what day it is.

Good thing our courts are tied up dealing with tough issues like this...  ::)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 04:46:31 PM »
I think shit like this reflects bad on us atheists.  National Day of Prayer?  So fucking what.  Nobody is being forced to pray or listen to a prayer...hell, I don't even know what day it is.

Good thing our courts are tied up dealing with tough issues like this...  ::)

Word.  There are times when government crosses the line.  This certainly isn't one of them.  Really a waste of time and resources. 

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 06:20:59 PM »
Score one for the paranoid anti-religious extremists.  At least for now.   

Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
April 15, 2010 - 4:49 PM | by: Mike Levine

The National Day of Prayer, honored in the United States for more than a half-century, is unconstitutional, a federal judge in Wisconsin has ruled.

In a 66-page opinion issued Thursday, U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb said the holiday violates the "establishment clause" of the First Amendment, which creates a separation of church and state.

"I understand that many may disagree with that conclusion and some may even view it as a criticism of prayer or those who pray," Crabb said in her opinion. "That is unfortunate. A determination that the government may not endorse a religious message is not a determination that the message itself is harmful, unimportant or undeserving of dissemination."

The opinion comes in a case filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based group of self-described "atheists" and "agnostics."

Crabb said her ruling is based on "relevant case law," and it does not prevent religious groups from organizing prayer services or prevent the President from discussing his views on prayer.

"The only issue decided in this case is that the federal government may not endorse prayer in a statute," Crabb said.

The Justice Department would not say whether it expects to appeal Crabb's ruling.

"We are reviewing the court's decision," a Justice Department spokesman said.

Within hours of the ruling, the ranking Republican on the House Judiciary Committee urged the Justice Department to "immediately" file an appeal.

"The decision undermines the values of religious freedom that America was founded upon," Rep. Lamar Smith, R-Tex., said in a statement. "What’s next?  Declaring the federal holiday for Christmas unconstitutional?"

Crabb said the ruling would not have any effect until any appeals are exhausted.

She insisted her ruling was not a judgment on the value of prayer.

"No one can doubt the important role that prayer plays in the spiritual life of a believer," Crabb said in her opinion. "In the best of times, people may pray as a way of expressing joy and thanks; during times of grief, many find that prayer provides comfort. Others may pray to give praise, seek forgiveness, ask for guidance or find the truth. ... However, recognizing the importance of prayer to many people does not mean that the government may enact a statute in support of it, any more than the government may encourage citizens to fast during the month of Ramadan, attend a synagogue, purify themselves in a sweat lodge or practice rune magic."

The National Day of Prayer was first established by Congress in 1952, with a more specific date for the holiday set in 1988. It is now observed on the first Thursday in May.

Smith said he can "assure" Americans that "Congress will do everything in its power to protect the National Day of Prayer."

On the holiday last year, President Obama issued a statement saying Americans have always "come together in moments of great challenge and uncertainty to humble themselves in prayer."

"In 1775, as the Continental Congress began the task of forging a new Nation, colonists were asked to observe a day of quiet humiliation and prayer," the statement said. "Almost a century later, as the flames of the Civil War burned from north to south, President Lincoln and the Congress once again asked the American people to pray as the fate of their Nation hung in the balance."

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/15/judge-natl-day-of-prayer-unconstitutional/

the judged said her opinion was based on case law (as one would hope) and went out of her way to say "The only issue decided in this case is that the federal government may not endorse prayer in a statute,"

the only one who is paranoid is you

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2010, 06:30:45 PM »
LOL.   lol.   This thread is a great case study.  A smart, rational atheist.  And a paranoid anti-religious extremist.  lol. 

This was like a Pavlov's Dog experiment.   :D

SAMSON123

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8670
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 06:40:19 PM »
the judged said her opinion was based on case law (as one would hope) and went out of her way to say "The only issue decided in this case is that the federal government may not endorse prayer in a statute,"

the only one who is paranoid is you

Why is NOTHING else in america based upon CASE LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION?
C

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 08:05:04 PM »
Why is NOTHING else in america based upon CASE LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION?

I can think of a few things

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 08:08:57 PM »
LOL.   lol.   This thread is a great case study. A smart, rational atheist.  And a paranoid anti-religious extremist.  lol. 

This was like a Pavlov's Dog experiment.   :D


thanks




LurkerNoMore

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 33732
  • Dumb people think Trump is smart.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2010, 07:29:31 AM »
Since when was prayer constitutional in the first place?

George Whorewell

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
  • TND
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 08:09:51 AM »
Lurker is right. We should round up all the people who believe in God in this country and have them shot.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 11:11:14 AM »
Since when was prayer constitutional in the first place?

 ???  The last part of the article might give you a hint:

"In 1775, as the Continental Congress began the task of forging a new Nation, colonists were asked to observe a day of quiet humiliation and prayer," the statement said. "Almost a century later, as the flames of the Civil War burned from north to south, President Lincoln and the Congress once again asked the American people to pray as the fate of their Nation hung in the balance."

Then there are the chaplains in the U.S. Senate who open sessions with prayer, the military chaplains paid by your tax dollars, etc., etc. 

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19338
  • Getbig!
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2010, 12:20:26 PM »
???  The last part of the article might give you a hint:

"In 1775, as the Continental Congress began the task of forging a new Nation, colonists were asked to observe a day of quiet humiliation and prayer," the statement said. "Almost a century later, as the flames of the Civil War burned from north to south, President Lincoln and the Congress once again asked the American people to pray as the fate of their Nation hung in the balance."

Then there are the chaplains in the U.S. Senate who open sessions with prayer, the military chaplains paid by your tax dollars, etc., etc. 

I've actually met and heard Senate Chaplain, RADM (Ret.) Barry C. Black preach. The man can deliver the Word.

My wife has an autographed copy of his book, From the Hood to the Hill

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 12:23:16 PM »
I've actually met and heard Senate Chaplain, RADM (Ret.) Barry C. Black preach. The man can deliver the Word.

My wife has an autographed copy of his book, From the Hood to the Hill

I've heard him speak too.  He's terrific. 

LurkerNoMore

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 33732
  • Dumb people think Trump is smart.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 09:36:01 AM »
???  The last part of the article might give you a hint:

"In 1775, as the Continental Congress began the task of forging a new Nation, colonists were asked to observe a day of quiet humiliation and prayer," the statement said. "Almost a century later, as the flames of the Civil War burned from north to south, President Lincoln and the Congress once again asked the American people to pray as the fate of their Nation hung in the balance."

Then there are the chaplains in the U.S. Senate who open sessions with prayer, the military chaplains paid by your tax dollars, etc., etc. 

What part of the word "asked" in that paragraph confused you?  In no way was it mandatory. 

Here's a bigger hint.  A secular nation having a National Prayer Day is pinnacle of irony. 

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 11:38:54 AM »
What part of the word "asked" in that paragraph confused you?  In no way was it mandatory. 

Here's a bigger hint.  A secular nation having a National Prayer Day is pinnacle of irony. 

You're apparently confused by the entire subject.  The National Day of Prayer isn't "mandatory." 

You're question was "Since when was prayer constitutional in the first place?"  The answer, which I tried to give you, is found in a number of areas, including the fact prayer was part of the Contintental Congress in 1775 (before the Constitution was adopted) and a call for national prayer by the president was done by Lincoln (after the Constitution was adopted). 

Also, if prayer was "unconstitutional," we wouldn't have taxpayer funded chaplains giving prayer to open Congressional sessions. 

Nothing ironic about prayer, because we're not a secular nation.  Prayer and religion are us much a part of American history and society as anything.   

LurkerNoMore

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 33732
  • Dumb people think Trump is smart.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 12:02:02 PM »
Of course it isn't mandatory.  I already said that.  Neither prayer nor National Prayer Day.

It isn't constitutional either.  Unless you can show me where it specifically established.

And yes, we are a secular nation.  You can tell yourself whatever you need to believe to overcome that fact if you wish, but it doesn't change it.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2010, 12:09:03 PM »
Of course it isn't mandatory.  I already said that.  Neither prayer nor National Prayer Day.

It isn't constitutional either.  Unless you can show me where it specifically established.

And yes, we are a secular nation.  You can tell yourself whatever you need to believe to overcome that fact if you wish, but it doesn't change it.

What??  What in the world are you talking about?  You said  "What part of the word "asked" in that paragraph confused you?  In no way was it mandatory."  You're the one who brought up the word mandatory. 

I just gave you three examples.  The last one (prayer by taxpayer funded chaplains to open Congressional sessions) has already been challeged and deemed constitutional. 

Here are some references.   
http://chaplain.house.gov/chaplaincy/history.html

And here: 

"In light of the unambiguous and unbroken history of more than 200 years, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an "establishment" of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/marsh.html

I could give you numberous examples about the inherently religious nature of our history and society, but I doubt it would do much good.   :)

LurkerNoMore

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 33732
  • Dumb people think Trump is smart.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2010, 12:11:58 PM »
What??  What in the world are you talking about?  You said  "What part of the word "asked" in that paragraph confused you?  In no way was it mandatory."  You're the one who brought up the word mandatory. 

I sure did.

Then you came along right behind me and agreed with me.

The National Day of Prayer isn't "mandatory." 



And now you are attempting to argue the exact same answer I gave, that you agreed with?  Well..... okayyyyyyyy. 

 ::)

The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 50229
  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2010, 12:13:11 PM »

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2010, 12:16:44 PM »
I sure did.

Then you came along right behind me and agreed with me.

And now you are attempting to argue the exact same answer I gave, that you agreed with?  Well..... okayyyyyyyy. 

 ::)


You're tripping all over yourself.   :)

But I assume you're abandoning this:

Quote

It isn't constitutional either.  Unless you can show me where it specifically established.


LurkerNoMore

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 33732
  • Dumb people think Trump is smart.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2010, 12:25:59 PM »
How can something be unconstitutional when it was never constitutional in the first place?

Are you saying it is MANDATORY to have a chaplain open Congressional sessions?  What if they didn't?  What about congress members of other faith? 

????


MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19338
  • Getbig!
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2010, 12:29:19 PM »
How can something be unconstitutional when it was never constitutional in the first place?

Are you saying it is MANDATORY to have a chaplain open Congressional sessions?  What if they didn't?  What about congress members of other faith? 

????



They sit by and respect the traditions of this country.

LurkerNoMore

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 33732
  • Dumb people think Trump is smart.
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2010, 12:31:33 PM »
They sit by and respect the traditions of this country.

But it is not mandatory.  Period.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66495
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2010, 12:32:19 PM »
How can something be unconstitutional when it was never constitutional in the first place?

Are you saying it is MANDATORY to have a chaplain open Congressional sessions?  What if they didn't?  What about congress members of other faith? 

????



Prayer is "constitutional," meaning you can pray whenever you want (that's part of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment).  Prayer by public officials is constitutional, meaning they can do so without violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.  

I didn't say chaplains and prayer to open Congressional sessions are mandatory.  I mentioned those as examples to help you undertand that "prayer is Constututional" (which was your question).  

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19338
  • Getbig!
Re: Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2010, 12:34:28 PM »
But it is not mandatory.  Period.

No one claimed it was....PERIOD!!