Judge: Natl Day Of Prayer Unconstitutional

[LurkerNoMore]

No one claimed it was....PERIOD!!

Which is exactly the point I made.  Oh.... several posts back.

Try to keep up.

[Dos Equis]

No one claimed it was....PERIOD!!

LOL.  Right.  This is too funny.  He brought up the word mandatory.  

[LurkerNoMore]

Did I?

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=327645.msg4668205#msg4668205

Oh yeah... I did.

The fact that you agreed with me and still attempt to argue the exact same stance makes me wonder if you took your meds today.

[Dos Equis]

National Day of Prayer Decision Still Unpopular

United States District Court Judge Barbara Crabb’s ruling declaring the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional is still unpopular on Capitol Hill. A bipartisan group roughly 30 members strong took to the microphones Wednesday to denounce last week’s decision and urge President Barack Obama to take the necessary steps to appeal the ruling.

Despite Judge Crabb’s determination that the day “serves no purpose but to encourage a religious exercise, making it difficult for a reasonable observer to see the statute as anything other than a religious endorsement,” members viewed this as a specious claim thanks to the wording of the law.

The legislative language, according to the Co-Chair of the Congressional Prayer Caucus Rep. Mike McIntyre (D-NC), does not require a religious exercise, it merely suggests it. Reading from the original declaration Rep. McIntyre says there is no demand for prayer on a day established by the President, “on which the people of the United States may m-a-y may (sic) turn to God in prayer and meditation.” The m-word, McIntyre thinks, “clears it up.”

Over the course of the hour-long press conference, members voiced their support for the National Day of Prayer, pointing to the long history of prayer in the lives of the founding fathers and mentions of a “Supreme Being” or “Creator” in the Bill of Rights and Constitution as keystones in the nation’s identity.

On the legislative front, Congressional Prayer Caucus Member Rep. Todd Tihart (R-KS) plans to introduce a resolution calling for an appeal to Judge Crabb’s ruling. He expects it to be as popular with members as the National Day of Prayer decision is unpopular.

Members say that the ruling will reach the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, and if the ruling is not overturned there, they will push for the case to be heard at the United States Supreme Court.

http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/21/national-day-of-prayer-decision-still-unpopular/

[The True Adonis]

What a fucking waste of time.  Pray on your own time, not on tax payer time inside a Government building.  Not like it serves any purpose anyways.  

Its beyond me why Religious people want the government to sign off on prayers.

What in the blue hell is the point of "prayer" anyways?

[Dos Equis]

Then don't.

[The True Adonis]

Then don't.

Why do we need the Government to tell us that they are setting aside a day for it then?

[Dos Equis]

Why do we need the Government to tell us that they are setting aside a day for it then?

Our governmental leaders are taking part in a time honored tradition.  Something done and/or recognized by every president in our history.  Prayer and faith is so important that every legitimate presidential candidate talks about their faith, including our current president who made it a central part of his campaign.   

If you or anyone doesn't like it, don't listen.  It's not that complicated.  If you don't want to pray, don't. 

[The True Adonis]

Our governmental leaders are taking part in a time honored tradition.  Something done and/or recognized by every president in our history.  Prayer and faith is so important that every legitimate presidential candidate talks about their faith, including our current president who made it a central part of his campaign.   

If you or anyone doesn't like it, don't listen.  It's not that complicated.  If you don't want to pray, don't. 

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Andrew Jackson are 3 of a few more Presidents who OBJECTED to "National Prayer" of any kind.

"I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government." --Andrew Jackson- letter to the Synod of the Reformed Church of North America, 12 June 1832, explaining his refusal of their request that he proclaim a "day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer."

[Dos Equis]

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Andrew Jackson are 3 of a few more Presidents who OBJECTED to "National Prayer" of any kind.

"I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government." --Andrew Jackson- letter to the Synod of the Reformed Church of North America, 12 June 1832, explaining his refusal of their request that he proclaim a "day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer."

So what. 

[The True Adonis]

So what. 

You are claiming that every President or candidate supported or supports National Prayer Day and that is simply not true.

Furthermore "National Prayer Day" was only enacted in 1952 and then later amended in 1988 to be the first Thursday of May.

I personally find this law abhorrent and an affront to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

We do not need the government putting a rubber stamp on any religious matter whatsoever.

[The True Adonis]

 

[Dos Equis]

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and Andrew Jackson are 3 of a few more Presidents who OBJECTED to "National Prayer" of any kind.

"I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government." --Andrew Jackson- letter to the Synod of the Reformed Church of North America, 12 June 1832, explaining his refusal of their request that he proclaim a "day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer."

 

In 1774, while serving in the Virginia Assembly, Jefferson personally introduced a resolution calling for a Day of Fasting and Prayer. [2]

In 1779, as Governor of Virginia, Jefferson decreed a day of “Public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God.” [3]

As President, Jefferson signed bills that appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and the armed services.

On March 4, 1805, President Jefferson offered “A National Prayer for Peace,” which petitioned:

“Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will.  Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners.

Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way.  Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.

Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth.

In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.”

http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/separationmyth.php

[The True Adonis]

In 1774, while serving in the Virginia Assembly, Jefferson personally introduced a resolution calling for a Day of Fasting and Prayer. [2]

In 1779, as Governor of Virginia, Jefferson decreed a day of “Public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God.” [3]

As President, Jefferson signed bills that appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and the armed services.

On March 4, 1805, President Jefferson offered “A National Prayer for Peace,” which petitioned:

“Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will.  Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners.

Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way.  Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.

Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth.

In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.”

http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/separationmyth.php

Please delete or amend your above post to reflect the FACTS.


The problem with the above is that it isn't true. March 4, 1805 was the date of Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address and there is no such prayer included in it. This "prayer" shows up on a number of religious web sites on line, and is either attributed to Thomas Jefferson, with no other information or as above "Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1805". Nowhere is there a complete valid cite given. You can find his Second Inaugural Address at:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefAddr.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=7&division=div1

Thomas Jefferson, Second Inaugural Address, Monday, March 4, 1805

[Dos Equis]

You are claiming that every President or candidate supported or supports National Prayer Day and that is simply not true.

Furthermore "National Prayer Day" was only enacted in 1952 and then later amended in 1988 to be the first Thursday of May.

I personally find this law abhorrent and an affront to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

We do not need the government putting a rubber stamp on any religious matter whatsoever.

If you find prayer abhorrent you need to build a bridge and get over it.  Some facts:



1) The President of the United States has called for a National Day of Prayer every year since 1975.

2) There have been 135 national calls to prayer, humiliation, fasting and thanksgiving by the President of the United States (1789-2009).

3) There have been 57 Presidential Proclamations for a “National Day of Prayer” (1952-2009).

4) Gerald Ford (1976) and George H. Bush (1989-91) are the only U.S. Presidents to sign two National Day of Prayer Proclamations in the same year.

5) Every President since 1952 has signed a National Day of Prayer proclamation.

6) 33 of the 44 U.S. Presidents have signed proclamations for National Prayer. Four of the Presidents who did not sign a proclamation died while serving in office.

http://nationaldayofprayer.org/about/history/

[Dos Equis]

One of FDR's prayers:

My Fellow Americans:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen.

Franklin D. Roosevelt - June 6, 1944

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/fdr-prayer.htm

[The True Adonis]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-11-29/news/0911280034_1_thanksgiving-day-national-day-thanksgiving-history/2

As the nation's third president, serving from 1801 to 1809, Jefferson altered his attitude toward issuing such proclamations.

In 1808, the Rev. Samuel Miller had written a letter to Jefferson suggesting a national day of fasting and prayer.

Jefferson's response was crafted by the Constitution. "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. ... Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government," he wrote to Miller.

"But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises, which the Constitution has directly precluded them from ... civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents," Jefferson concluded.

"In other words," Fader said, "a separation of church and state."

In 1802, in response to a letter from the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association regarding his election as president, Jefferson used the phrase "a wall of separation between church and state."

[Dos Equis]

Prayers by Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Faith-Tools/Meditation/2005/01/Prayers-Of-The-Presidents.aspx

[The True Adonis]

If you find prayer abhorrent you need to build a bridge and get over it.  Some facts:



1) The President of the United States has called for a National Day of Prayer every year since 1975.

2) There have been 135 national calls to prayer, humiliation, fasting and thanksgiving by the President of the United States (1789-2009).

3) There have been 57 Presidential Proclamations for a “National Day of Prayer” (1952-2009).

4) Gerald Ford (1976) and George H. Bush (1989-91) are the only U.S. Presidents to sign two National Day of Prayer Proclamations in the same year.

5) Every President since 1952 has signed a National Day of Prayer proclamation.

6) 33 of the 44 U.S. Presidents have signed proclamations for National Prayer. Four of the Presidents who did not sign a proclamation died while serving in office.

http://nationaldayofprayer.org/about/history/

ROFLMAO

What is the point of number 6?  To invoke supernatural Superstition? Also number 3 states that there have been 57 Proclamations for "National Prayer Day" 1952-2009, yet number 6 claims 33 of 44 Presidents signed a Proclamation for "National Prayer Day".  That does not make any sense whatsoever given the time frame.  I have to only conclude that whatever site this is from, ITS BULLSHIT.  It does not add up.

Get this religious garbage out of here and keep it out of the Government.  

[The True Adonis]

Also, can you please delete the 1805 reference to Jefferson from your Religious Bunk site.  Its factually incorrect and is dishonest to promote otherwise.

[Dos Equis]

And there are the states (probably most if not all of them), that do the same thing, including the most liberal state in the country:

GOVERNOR JOINS COMMUNITY LEADERS AT HAWAI`I PRAYER BREAKFAST

April 11 - For the fifth consecutive year, Governor Lingle and members of the cabinet joined Hawai'i's mayors, government officials, and leaders from the business, military, non-profit and faith-based communities at the Hawai`i Prayer Breakfast.  "Prayer is important because it provides leaders with strength, courage and guidance throughout their work," Governor Lingle said.  The Hawai‘i Prayer Breakfast is modeled after the National Prayer Breakfast, which was initiated in 1953 by President Eisenhower.

http://hawaii.gov/gov/news/events/2007/4.10.07-PrayerBreakfast-fullstory

[Dos Equis]

ROFLMAO

What is the point of number 6?  To invoke supernatural Superstition? Also number 3 states that there have been 57 Proclamations for "National Prayer Day" 1952-2009, yet number 6 claims 33 of 44 Presidents signed a Proclamation for "National Prayer Day".  That does not make any sense whatsoever given the time frame.  I have to only conclude that whatever site this is from, ITS BULLSHIT.  It does not add up.

Get this religious garbage out of here and keep it out of the Government.  

LOL.  What??  What that means is that a president signed more than one proclamation.  lol . . . .

The religious garbage is here to stay.  Deal with it.     Or go file lawsuits like other paranoid anti-religious extremists. 

Actually, you should read Skip's comments.  He makes a lot of sense.

[Dos Equis]

Also, can you please delete the 1805 reference to Jefferson from your Religious Bunk site.  Its factually incorrect and is dishonest to promote otherwise.

No.  If you disagree then post your comments, sources, etc. 

[The True Adonis]

LOL.  What??  What that means is that a president signed more than one proclamation.  lol . . . .

The religious garbage is here to stay.  Deal with it.     Or go file lawsuits like other paranoid anti-religious extremists. 

Actually, you should read Skip's comments.  He makes a lot of sense.

Again you are not following along. 

Your site is claiming that 33 presidents have signed Proclimations for a National Day of Prayer".

It is also claiming

That there have been 57 Proclamations for "National Prayer Day" starting in 1952-2009

If 33 Presidents have signed a Proclamation for National Prayer Day, this is in direct conflict with 57 Proclamations from 1952-2009 which your article also claims.

You see 33 Presidents worth of Presidential terms add up to A LOT more than years than the 57 years which is the timespan from 1952-2009.

This is a direct contradiction and/or a gross error.

[The True Adonis]

No.  If you disagree then post your comments, sources, etc. 

Its not a matter of disagreeing.  You are being FACTUALLY INCORRECT and promoting a falsehood.

From the University of Virginia.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefAddr.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=7&division=div1