Author Topic: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies  (Read 4598 times)

The True Adonis

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RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« on: April 24, 2010, 12:33:14 PM »

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 12:37:46 PM »
Pretty sickening.

chaos

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 12:39:31 PM »
Maybe if you prayed more God would have cured your polio. :)
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 12:45:00 PM »
On a related note, doctors believe in prayer and miracles. 

"The spirituality of wellness: physicians say religious belief contributes to healing - includes related information on the power of prayer"http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0675/is_n6_v15/ai_20060250/


The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 12:57:14 PM »
On a related note, doctors believe in prayer and miracles. 

"The spirituality of wellness: physicians say religious belief contributes to healing - includes related information on the power of prayer"http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0675/is_n6_v15/ai_20060250/


::)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

Study: Prayer didn't help sick

Chicago Tribune
CHICAGO — Praying for a sick heart patient may feel right to people of faith, but it doesn't appear to improve the patient's health, according to a new study that is the largest ever done on the healing powers of prayer.

Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers. The team speculated that telling patients about the prayers may have caused "performance anxiety," or perhaps a fear that doctors expected the worst.

"Obviously, my colleagues were surprised by the unexpected and counterintuitive outcome," said the Rev. Dean Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a study co-investigator.

It was a strange end for the mammoth prayer study, which cost $2.4 million and enrolled 1,802 patients who had bypass surgery. Most of the funding came from the British-based John Templeton Foundation, which supports research at the intersection of science and religion.

Previous studies had examined the power of prayer for medical patients, with mixed results. Most did not have the statistical power to reliably detect the effects of prayer, if it had an effect.

The new study, which appears in the April issue of the American Heart Journal, was designed to be large enough to see if patients who knew they were being prayed for had better recoveries.

The people who prayed for the patients were strangers, either Roman Catholic monks or believers belonging to other Christian denominations. Those who prayed were given the patients' first names and last initials, and instructed to give a simple prayer for a quick recovery with no complications. The researchers said they could not find a non-Christian group that could work with the scheduling demands of their study.

Bypass patients who consented to take part in the experiment were divided randomly into three groups. Some patients received prayers but were not informed of that. In the second group, patients got no prayers and also were not informed one way or the other. Patients in the third group got prayers and were told so.

There was virtually no difference in complication rates between patients in the first two groups. But the third group, in which patients knew they were receiving prayers, had a complication rate of 59 percent, significantly more than the 52 percent in the no-prayer group.

Researchers said the study was never intended to prove or disprove the existence of God or to settle theological questions. But they had expected that knowing someone was praying for the patients might help those patients relax and bring about a state of well-being, which can reduce strain on the heart.


 
"In this study we did not find that was the case," said Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School, a principal investigator of the study.
Researchers were at a loss to explain the worsened outcomes in their study. An accompanying editorial in the journal criticized the study authors for taking "an almost casual approach toward any explanation, stating only that it 'may have been a chance finding.' "

The editorial authors, led by Dr. Mitchell Krucoff of Duke University Medical Center, wrote that study leaders had not anticipated that prayer might be harmful and had "allowed cultural presumption to undermine scientific objectivity."

Any attempt to study the power of prayer objectively runs the risk of scientific and theological problems, said Dr. Daniel Sulmasy, director of ethics at St. Vincent's Hospital and New York Medical College.

"God is not just another therapeutic nostrum in a doctor's black bag," said Sulmasy, who is also a Franciscan friar. "It seems fundamentally sinful to conceive of God as our instrument."

Marek, a Catholic priest, conceded that it may be an unfair test of God to measure whether detailed prayers are granted. "The best prayer probably is, 'Thy will be done.' "'

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 12:58:39 PM »
On a related note, doctors believe in prayer and miracles. 

"The spirituality of wellness: physicians say religious belief contributes to healing - includes related information on the power of prayer"http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0675/is_n6_v15/ai_20060250/


You do realize there is NO SUCH THING as miracles. 

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 01:01:40 PM »
http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html



Largest Study of Third-Party Prayer Suggests Such Prayer Not Effective In Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery

BOSTON, MA-March 31, 2006-For those facing surgery or battling disease, the prayers of others can be a comfort. Researchers in the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), the largest study to examine the effects of intercessory prayer-prayer provided by others-evaluated the impact of such prayer on patients recovering from coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
The STEP team, composed of investigators at six academic medical centers, including Baptist Memorial Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee; Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts; Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota; St. Joseph's Hospital in Tampa, Florida; Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C; and the Mind/Body Medical Institute, found that intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications. The study also found that patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse. The paper appears in the April issue of American Heart Journal.

"The primary goal of STEP was to evaluate whether intercessory prayer or the knowledge of receiving it would influence recovery after bypass surgery," said co-author Jeffery A. Dusek, Harvard Medical School instructor of medicine and Associate Research Director at the Mind/Body Medical Institute. Each year, 350,000 Americans have coronary artery bypass graft surgery. Though medical techniques and post-operative care have improved dramatically in recent years, the surgery is stressful. Earlier studies have shown that many patients enlist friends and family to provide private prayer for support during surgery and recovery.

STEP investigators enrolled 1,802 bypass surgery patients from six hospitals and randomly assigned each to one of three groups: 604 patients received intercessory prayer after being informed they may or may not receive prayers (Group 1); 597 patients did not receive prayer after being informed they may or may not receive prayer (Group 2); and 601 patients received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive it (Group 3).

Caregivers and independent auditors comparing case reports to medical records were unaware of the patients' assignments throughout the study. The study enlisted members of three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant, to provide prayer throughout the multi-year study. The researchers approached other denominations, but none were able to make the time commitments that the study required.

Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups.

Unlike traditional intercessory prayers, STEP investigators imposed limitations on the usual way prayer-givers would normally provide prayer. The researchers standardized the start and duration of prayers and provided only the patients' first name and last initial. Prayers began on the eve or day of surgery and continued daily for 14 days. Everyone prayed for received the same standardized prayer. Providing the names of patients directed prayer-givers away from a desire to pray for everyone participating in the study. Because the study was designed to investigate intercessory prayer, the results cannot be extrapolated to other types of prayer.

"Our study was never intended to address the existence of God or the presence or absence of intelligent design in the universe. The study did not endeavor, either, to compare the efficacy of one prayer form over another or to assess participants' understanding of the nature and purpose of prayer. Finally, it was not our objective to discover whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another," said co-author Father Dean Marek, Director, Chaplain Services, Mayo Clinic. Patients across the three groups had similar religious profiles. Most believed in spiritual healing and almost all believed friends or relatives would be praying for them. Investigators did not ask patients to have their friends and families withhold prayers, and assumed that many patients prayed for themselves during the study.

"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," said co-author Manoj Jain, Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee.

Investigators focused on patients undergoing one procedure with well-known complication rates and included a pre-trial analysis to determine the appropriate sample size required to yield statistically significant results. They employed a list of complications defined by the Society of Thoracic Surgeons and any patient showing one or more complications registered as a single complication, improving on previous studies which used non-standard criteria. To ensure the validity of the results, investigators designed STEP as a multi-center randomized controlled trial with the customary features of clinical trials, such as blinded audits, a consent process approved by an Institutional Review Board and independent monitoring by a Data and Safety Monitoring Board.

"Each study builds on others, and STEP advanced the design beyond what had been previously done," said Dusek. "The findings, however, could well be due to the study limitations."

The John Templeton Foundation supported STEP. The Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation supported the Baptist Memorial Hospital site.

The STEP study co-authors are: Herbert Benson MD and Jeffery A. Dusek PhD of Harvard Medical School and Mind/Body Medical Institute; Charles F. Bethea MD, Rev. William Carpenter MDiv, and Sue Rollins RN, MPH of Integris Baptist Medical Center; Sidney Levitsky MD of Harvard Medical School and Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center; Peter C. Hill MD and Rev. Donald W. Clem Jr. MA of Washington Hospital Center; Manoj K. Jain MD, MPH and Rev. David Drumel MDiv of Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation; Stephen L. Kopecky MD, Paul S. Mueller MD, and Fr. Dean Marek of Mayo Clinic; and Patricia L. Hibberd MD, PhD, Jane B. Sherwood RN, and Peter Lam PhD, consultants.
Photo by Jesper Noer

Baptist Memorial Health Care
One of the largest and top-rated integrated health networks in the country, Baptist Memorial Health Care, based in Memphis, Tenn., is comprised of 14 hospitals; more than 2,900 affiliated physicians; home, hospice and psychiatric care; minor medical centers; a network of surgery, rehabilitation and other outpatient centers; and an education system highlighted by the Baptist College of Health Sciences. Baptist Memorial Hospital-Memphis, the flagship of the Baptist Memorial Health Care system, opened in 1979 and is a 706-bed tertiary care hospital. Baptist provided more than $324 million in community benefit, and the organization had an economic impact of more than $2 billion on the communities it served in fiscal year 2004.

INTEGRIS Baptist Medical Center
INTEGRIS Health is Oklahoma's largest health system and one of the state's largest private employers, with hospitals and other facilities throughout much of the state. Headquarters are located on the campus of INTEGRIS Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. INTEGRIS Baptist is also home to a leading heart hospital, a cutting-edge transplant program, a fertility institute, a cancer center and a regional burn center. INTEGRIS Southwest Medical Center, an acute-care hospital in southwest Oklahoma City, is home to a sleep disorders center and Jim Thorpe Rehabilitation Hospital.

Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center is a patient care, teaching and research affiliate of Harvard Medical School, and ranks fourth in National Institutes of Health funding among independent hospitals nationwide. BIDMC is clinically affiliated with the Joslin Diabetes Center and is a research partner of Dana-Farber/Harvard Cancer Center. BIDMC is the official hospital of the Boston Red Sox. For more information, visit www.bidmc.harvard.edu.

Harvard Medical School
Harvard Medical School has more than 7,000 full-time faculty working in eight academic departments based at the School's Boston quadrangle or in one of 47 academic departments at 18 Harvard teaching hospitals and research institutes. Those Harvard hospitals and research institutions include Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Cambridge Health Alliance, the CBR Institute for Biomedical Research, Children's Hospital Boston, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, Forsyth Institute, Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, Joslin Diabetes Center, Judge Baker Children's Center, Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary, Massachusetts General Hospital, Massachusetts Mental Health Center, McLean Hospital, Mount Auburn Hospital, Schepens Eye Research Institute, Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital, and VA Boston Healthcare System. (http://hms.harvard.edu/).

Mayo Clinic
Mayo Clinic is the first and largest integrated group practice in the world. Doctors from every medical specialty work together care for patients, joined by common systems and the primary value that "the best interest of the patient is the only interest to be considered." More than 2,400 physicians and scientists and over 33,000 allied health staff work at Mayo Clinic in three locations, Rochester, Minnesota, Jacksonville, Florida and in Scottsdale/Phoenix, Arizona. Collectively, the three clinics treat more than half a million people each year.

Mind/Body Medical Institute
The Mind/Body Medical Institute is a non-profit scientific and educational organization dedicated to research, teaching and clinical application of mind/body medicine and its integration into all areas of health.

Washington Hospital Center
Washington Hospital Center is a not-for-profit 907-bed acute care teaching and research hospital based in Northwest Washington, D.C. It is the largest private hospital in the nation's capital and among the 25 largest hospitals in the United States. The Hospital Center is the flagship facility for the MedSTAR Health system. It consistently ranks among the nation's top hospitals as measured by entities such as U.S. News and World Report, Money, Consumer Checkbook and Solucient. The Washington Heart program is a national leader in the research, diagnosis and treatment of cardiovascular disease; its angioplasty lab is recognized by the DuPont Foundation as the busiest in the nation. Washington Hospital Center's neurosciences program offers the full range of surgical and minimally-invasive treatment and operates the only JCAHO-accredited primary stroke center in the District. The Washington Cancer Institute provides the latest in cancer treatment and therapies and access to cutting-edge clinical trials. The Hospital Center is also home to MedSTAR, one of the country's top shock-trauma treatment and transport facilities and the region's adult Burn Center.

Contact:
John Lacey, Harvard Medical School, 617-432-0442 (public_affairs@hms.harvard.edu)

chaos

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 01:03:13 PM »
The google-fu is strong in this thread!! :o
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 01:03:50 PM »

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 01:04:11 PM »
You do realize there is NO SUCH THING as miracles. 

 ::)

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 01:04:44 PM »
The google-fu is strong in this thread!! :o

lol.  It's the only way some people can "think."   :)

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 01:07:52 PM »
Interesting article:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090617154401.htm
Why do you find that article interesting? It focuses simply on possible motivations for such studies.  It also states that they would never use faith to validate Scientific Data.

This article does nothing for you or your point of view.

I personally think you should spend more time on ScienceDaily.  You may learn something.

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2010, 01:09:17 PM »
::)

There is no such thing as a miracle whatsoever. 

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2010, 01:11:32 PM »
Why do you find that article interesting? It focuses simply on possible motivations for such studies.  It also states that they would never use faith to validate Scientific Data.

This article does nothing for you or your point of view.

I personally think you should spend more time on ScienceDaily.  You may learn something.

It's an interesting discussion.  My point of view is that doctors believe in prayer and miracles.  Your meltdown elementary school posts can't refute this fact.  Whether it actually works is a different issue, but I doubt you picked up on that.

You ought to go to school.  It might help you.  I mean other than getting schooled on this board.   :)

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 01:12:15 PM »
There is no such thing as a miracle whatsoever. 

Yes, yes, whatever you say.   :)

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2010, 01:21:01 PM »
It's an interesting discussion.  My point of view is that doctors believe in prayer and miracles.  Your meltdown elementary school posts can't refute this fact.  Whether it actually works is a different issue, but I doubt you picked up on that.

You ought to go to school.  It might help you.  I mean other than getting schooled on this board.   :)
you can`t make such a broad-brushed ignorant statement like that.    There is no medical efficacy of prayer other than mental delusion/comfort.  

Prayer is not going to heal any disease or cure any ailment and no respected physician would ever think it would.

Credible Doctors do not believe in miracles. Miracles don`t exist and credible doctors who do believe in Miracles don`t exist.

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2010, 01:25:20 PM »
you can`t make such a broad-brushed ignorant statement like that.    There is no medical efficacy of prayer other than mental delusion/comfort.  

Prayer is not going to heal any disease or cure any ailment and no respected physician would ever think it would.

Credible Doctors do not believe in miracles. Miracles don`t exist and credible doctors who do believe in Miracles don`t exist.

Again, you're missing the point, as usual.  The issue I raised isn't whether prayer works or miracles happen (it does and they do), it's whether doctors and patients use and believe in prayer and miracles.

The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2010, 01:28:42 PM »
Again, you're missing the point, as usual.  The issue I raised isn't whether prayer works or miracles happen (it does and they do), it's whether doctors and patients use and believe in prayer and miracles.

No such thing as a miracle and yes all sorts of people are deluded. 


Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2010, 01:34:42 PM »
No such thing as a miracle and yes all sorts of people are deluded. 



You live in a very small world.  :-\

chaos

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2010, 01:45:30 PM »
You live in a very small world.  :-\
The Carolinas aren't very big and they are mostly filled with "people" that have offspring with their relatives.
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Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2010, 01:49:51 PM »
The Carolinas aren't very big and they are mostly filled with "people" that have offspring with their relatives.


The True Adonis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2010, 01:59:53 PM »
The Carolinas aren't very big and they are mostly filled with "people" that have offspring with their relatives.
Hardly.  We will be ranked 9th largest state by population soon not to mention the Metropolitan areas ranking at the top of the United States.

chaos

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2010, 01:59:55 PM »

Small world = one of the Carolinas (north/south) where Adonis lives.......

nevermind. :(
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Dos Equis

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2010, 02:03:12 PM »
Small world = one of the Carolinas (north/south) where Adonis lives.......

nevermind. :(

Ah so.  Not cool dude. 

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Re: RELIGIOUS Faith KILLING Babies
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2010, 02:05:55 PM »
North Carolina is a great state.  If TA spewed his rhetoric in 90% of the state, he would get curb stomped.....much like chaos would if he came to NC and talked so much shit about it, like he does on here...... ;D