Author Topic: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever  (Read 2190 times)

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2010, 06:56:39 PM »
Hi Frequency traders are getting the blame right now on cnbc.

Goldman has a very successful high frequency trading program.

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2010, 07:19:19 PM »
one of them typed a B for billion, instead of M for million.

crazy a little error like that could cost investors wordlwide thousands of dollars each

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2010, 07:44:37 PM »
one of them typed a B for billion, instead of M for million.

crazy a little error like that could cost investors wordlwide thousands of dollars each

Not possible I'm afraid.

You don't enter your trade quantities like that. Traders don't go to their trading platforms and type in "three hundred and fifty contracts"  ::)

Total qty on the e-mini S&P futures contract was 5.6 million. The day before it was 3 million. It sure isn't billions.

Here's a more likely explanation - http://www.zerohedge.com/article/day-market-almost-died-courtesy-high-frequency-trading

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2010, 07:53:07 PM »
Not possible I'm afraid.

You don't enter your trade quantities like that. Traders don't go to their trading platforms and type in "three hundred and fifty contracts"  ::)

Total qty on the e-mini S&P futures contract was 5.6 million. The day before it was 3 million. It sure isn't billions.

Here's a more likely explanation - http://www.zerohedge.com/article/day-market-almost-died-courtesy-high-frequency-trading

What i think he's saying that the trader typed an extra few digits..

In example 1,000,000,000 as opposed to 1,000,000

The trader didn't buy Stock index futures that is for sure..


Yes the problem was caused by these black box, algorithm trading systems...

I foresee a congressional interview on this event.Where the heads of these HFT firms, such as GETCO, Goldman, and market makers such as Citadel, and knight.

Something needs to be done about this problem.  Sure these HFT programs add liquidity. However, these trades don't add any economic value.

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2010, 08:56:29 PM »
What i think he's saying that the trader typed an extra few digits..

Nope - CNBC specifically said he typed a "B" instead of an "M" - such is the dumbed down nature of that channel

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2010, 09:07:00 PM »
This is an email from the firm i trade Forex, stocks , futures, sock options with..They sent me this email..


Due to heightened volatility and market conditions that occurred earlier today, All equity exchanges have issued an Industry-wide Clearly Erroneous Ruling Policy Established for 05/06/10. An industry-wide decision to address potentially erroneous pricing from today's trading has been initiated.

Please Note that:
-The specific time frame addresses trade executions between 2:40 p.m. ET and 3:00 p.m. ET
-The reference price is the consolidated last sale at or before 2:40 p.m ET
-Trades executed with a price deviation of greater than and less than 60 percent from the reference price will be busted.
-This decision may not be appealed

Additionally, your account trades and balances may be affected as a result. More information will be made available to firms tomorrow with regard to trade executions. We will be modifying account positions and balances as the exchanges relay that information to us. These updates will most likely occur through the trading day on Friday 5/7/2010.

Should you believe that the your executions, that occurred on 5/6/2010, falls in the above categories, please contact the trade desk tomorrow morning before trading out of any erroneous positions as a result of the Clearly Erroneous Ruling Policy.

Updates will follow as soon, via your software as well as emails and notices, as they are made available from Exchanges and we will promptly communicate with you as soon as possible.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Regards,

MB Trading

MB Trading: FINRA/SIPC Member
MB Trading Futures, Inc.: NFA Member
1926 E. Maple Avenue
El Segundo, CA. 90245
www.mbtrading.com

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2010, 09:44:58 PM »
by tyler durdan from zero hedge

HFT Market Making May Lead to a Crash

Rambus (RMBS) fell 30% today in a matter of five minutes.  It immediately bounced back.  The cause for this move was speculated as a trader with a “fat finger”.  A trader simply messed up and sold too much stock accidentally, causing a swift and violent sell-off.

The trades were later deemed erroneous and busted by the exchange.

But what if the real cause wasn’t just a trader with a “fat finger”, accidentally selling too much stock? What if it was something more serious?  I believe it is. I believe the real cause for this move is a major concern for our markets. The real cause may have been high frequency market making gone bad.  Let me explain.

Market making is the practice of quoting both bids and offers on the same security, in hopes of capturing the spread. Market making has existed in our markets since the beginning.  Traditionally it was done by floor brokers, floor traders and specialists.  With the rise of the internet in the last 1990s, new players emerged in the market making practice.  Proprietary traders, and E-traders began to play the game.  This led to increased competition and tighter spreads.  But in the past five years a new player has emerged, and this player has become dominant, knocking many of the competitors out of the game.  This new player is the high frequency algorithmic trader, and it’s not a person, it’s a computer.  70% of our daily volume is now done by algorithmic computer systems.  Much of this volume is market making.  Why has the HFT computer become such a dominant player?  It has to do with their edge.

High frequency algorithmic systems have been programmed to step inside the NBBO (National Best Bid and Offer), and be the best bid and best offer.  This puts the computer system at the front of the line to be first for execution, and gives the computer the best chance to capture the spread.  Unfortunately, this practice is dominated by a few large firms, and they have driven traditional market makers out of the market.  If a traditional market maker places a bid, the computer automatically steps in front.  In some cases, it steps in front by as little as 1/100th of a penny (a practice called sub-pennying, which is discussed on my website http://www.defendtrading.com).  

These programs are very predatory and step in front of the NBBO on a constant basis.  This has driven liquidity providers out of the market.  Our proprietary trading firm, Bright Trading LLC, in the early 2000s, used to account for 2% of the volume on the NYSE.  Now we account for just a fraction of that.  Our 400 traders used to provide a substantial amount of liquidity to the market.  But due to predatory HFT market making practices, we now provide very little liquidity.  We are now liquidity takers.  The rational is simple, if we place a passive limit order (providing liquidity), the HFT algorithmic programs simply step in front of us.  If we do get filled on a passive order, it is almost always because we are wrong.  You are sub-pennied when you’re right, filled when you’re wrong.  Hence, there is no point to us providing liquidity.  Other proprietary trading firms, floor traders, and specialists are in the same boat.  There is no way for them to compete with the algorithmic programs, so they don’t place passive orders.

Without traditional market makers, willing to step up and be the buyer of last resort, we risk having more incidents, like the Rambus incident.

Computerized algorithmic market making works in any type of oscillating market, as the computer can keep flipping out of it’s longs, and covering it’s shorts.  It works in a trending market, as long as there is some type of choppy trade.  The problem lies, when the computer system can’t flip out of the position. Most algorithmic systems are programmed with some type of risk parameter.  If this risk parameter is breached, the computer will dump it’s position and cut it’s losses.  This is what may have happened in RMBS today.  An algorithmic system making markets on the long side, got too long, and was unable to wiggle out of the position because of the follow-through in selling pressure.  Once it was down so much in the position (the risk parameter was breached), it dumped.  This simply added fuel to the fire.  That is why the sudden plunge to $16 happened.  If you check the chart, you will not see this, because Nasdaq busted all trades under $22.  But don’t kid yourself, these trades happened, and we should be very alarmed, because it will happen again, and it may happen to the entire stock market.

High frequency traders make markets on ALL stocks.  As they continue to take dominance, and as more and more liquidity providers are driven out of the market by these HFT predatory algorithms, the likelihood of a crash continues to climb.  All it takes is a little bad news, and a breach in the HFT’s algorithmic system’s risk parameters, and we’re in a lot of trouble.

This has happened before, it WILL happen again.

Rambus was ONE stock today. Imagine if it was the entire market.

Dennis Dick, CFA

Bright Trading LLC

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2010, 09:55:35 PM »
"Nope - CNBC specifically said he typed a "B" instead of an "M" - such is the dumbed down nature of that channel"

yeah, at 520 pm or so.... jim cramer went on mathews hardball and said B instead of an M.

Seemed pretty damn weird that a mistake like that can lead to a freefall of 1000 in an hour.  when i saw it live this afternoon, I calmly loaded the rifles and figured the end was here hahaha

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2010, 05:30:47 AM »
Ha ha ha.  Mine already are loaded. Lol.

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2010, 05:33:05 AM »
My stuff took a small dip overall, but nothing major.  Wish I had jumped on the Sam Adams stock....went from $55 a share to ZERO....could have loaded up on that and had a nice day, but I wasn't able to be logged into my program during that time.... >:(

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2010, 06:49:59 AM »
for real... you have to laugh... cnbc INSTANTLY had that "fat finger" defense ready. 

once experts picked that apart, it became "nobody really knows, probably the computers or something".

Personally, I smell something fishy when they immediately have a cover story ready lol... one that ppl will laugh off around the water cooler, and just accept the big deal as no big deal.


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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2010, 06:58:16 AM »
"Nope - CNBC specifically said he typed a "B" instead of an "M" - such is the dumbed down nature of that channel"

yeah, at 520 pm or so.... jim cramer went on mathews hardball and said B instead of an M.

Seemed pretty damn weird that a mistake like that can lead to a freefall of 1000 in an hour.  when i saw it live this afternoon, I calmly loaded the rifles and figured the end was here hahaha

Bro - honestly - that is one your funniest posts ever.  I saw it on my blackberry while driving on the Bronx River Parkway stuck in traffic and almost crashed the car.   ;D  ;D

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2010, 07:18:51 AM »
My stuff took a small dip overall, but nothing major.  Wish I had jumped on the Sam Adams stock....went from $55 a share to ZERO....could have loaded up on that and had a nice day, but I wasn't able to be logged into my program during that time.... >:(

That trade would be Cancelled...

That would be nice buying it for one cent and cashing out for 40 dollars or so...  a 100 dollar investment would be worth 400,000


I actually had some put options that hit my limit price cause of the huge dip, so i'm happy with what happened..



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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2010, 07:21:41 AM »
Nasdaq CEO just said that the "fat finger" theory is bs.  

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2010, 07:25:23 AM »
Nasdaq CEO just said that the "fat finger" theory is bs.  

Yes, it's bullshit.

There trying to hide the vulnerability the stock market is subject to..NYSE Blames Nasdaq for the problem. It's the high frequency trading programs that are responsible for the problem.

Since they act as market makers,and have put real market makers out of buisness..

However, traditional MM's were the buyers of last resort, and yesterday there were zero buyers and million of sellers at the same time.

The High frequency programs didn't step in and buy

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2010, 07:31:38 AM »
Dow Jones Industrial Average(DJI: ^DJI)
Index Value: 10,249.84
Trade Time: 10:29AM EDT
Change:  270.48 (2.57%)
Prev Close: 10,520.32
Open: 10,519.42
Day's Range: 10,259.29 - 10,579.12
52wk Range: 8,057.57 - 11,309.00
.
Quotes delayed, except where indicated otherwise. Currency in USD.

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2010, 07:45:59 AM »
Dow Jones Industrial Average(DJI: ^DJI)
Index Value: 10,249.84
Trade Time: 10:29AM EDT
Change:  270.48 (2.57%)
Prev Close: 10,520.32
Open: 10,519.42
Day's Range: 10,259.29 - 10,579.12
52wk Range: 8,057.57 - 11,309.00
.
Quotes delayed, except where indicated otherwise. Currency in USD.

You shouldn't use the Dow Jones as the Benchmark for the stock market.  

You should consider using the S&P 500, as the Dow Jones is a flawed index.  It's Price weighted as opposed to capitalization weighted like the S&P 500. That means that companies with high stock prices cause the dow index to move the most.

Please consider using the S&P 500 as it's more reflective of the stock market as a whole. It's cap weighted as opposed to price weighted

The S&P 500 is at 1,109, it's only down about 1.64%..

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2010, 07:48:39 AM »
I think there is crazy manipulation going on. 

How can we trust anything anymore? 

Seriously?  If one key stroke from one computer can crash the system, what is to stop someone in the Fed or somewhere else from moving the market wherever it wants things to go?

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2010, 08:00:29 AM »
I think there is crazy manipulation going on.  

How can we trust anything anymore?  

Seriously?  If one key stroke from one computer can crash the system, what is to stop someone in the Fed or somewhere else from moving the market wherever it wants things to go?

Exactly Bro.. A hand full of firms control about 70% of all trades done on the NYSE and Nasdaq.  These firms have to much control, and can manipulate the markets direction.  Also these firms act as market makers. However, they are not interested in providing market participants with the best buy and best sell price.  The provide zero economic value, other than to reap mass profits.  Goldman should have been grilled by congress for this.  Goldman has one of the most successful HFT operations, it also has stakes in several other successful HFT trading firms.

Essentially Goldman can dictate exactly where the market goes, and when..These HFT's problems also present a major conflict of interest, and are firms who engage in this practice are acting with poor ethical standards.



I had two family members already call me today and ask me if they should get out of the markets now.  My response was are you retiring? ;D




Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2010, 08:03:24 AM »
Obama will be speaking about the Market any minute now..

Tito24

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2010, 09:32:25 AM »
BTW


The largest trade that can be entered at once on Stock emini futures is 2000 per order..




Somebody Should Hang the NYSE: Jim Rogers
 Buzz up! 3
Print
Topics:Stocks
On Friday May 7, 2010, 10:47 am EDT
The suspected erroneous trades that exacerbated the Wall Street's fall on Thursday should be investigated and solutions must be found if the New York Stock Exchange is to maintain its reputation, investor Jim Rogers told CNBC late Thursday.

The Dow ended Thursday's session down 3.2 percent, at 10,520.32, after being down as much as 998.50 points earlier, the index's biggest intraday drop on record.

According to regulatory officials, "a huge, anomalous, unexplained surge in selling" happened at about 2:45 p.m. New York time, setting off trading based on computer algorithms, thus amplifying the fall.

"Somebody should hang this New York Stock Exchange," Rogers said. "They claim to be the center of the world's capitalism, of the world's financial markets, you would think that in 2010 they could sort out simple things like electronics."

The New York Stock Exchange is investigating the cause of the possible erroneous trades.

But any tech problems alone are not to blame for the whole of the collapse as a decline was overdue, he added.

"It's time for a consolidation, there's always a reason for consolidation when it comes, the market went up for 13 months in a row, now we're going to, you know, correct for a while," Rogers told CNBC. "In my view the correction should have started sooner."

Rogers said he was long the dollar and the yen but "unfortunately" he was also long the euro, which economists predicted will collapse.

"You never have enough shorts when things collapse," he said. "I think people should be looking for shorts or defensive positions because we're going to have problems for a while, at least in my view."

Giving money to Greece will not solve its problems, it will only postpone them, as liquidity injections in other parts of the world have done, Rogers warned.

"As I've been saying to you all before, 2010 and 2011 are going to be years of currency turmoil not just in Europe but all over the world and Greece is bankrupt," he said.

"We can paper it over for a while, just as we papered over some of the problems in the US and the UK but the problems are going to come back," said Rogers.

Correction: A previous version of this story said a "glitch" at the New York Stock Exchange caused an accelerated selloff. This version makes clear the cause for the sudden surge in selling is unknown, but that erroneous trades are suspected.

what:

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2010, 06:53:29 AM »
agreed 33.

and props for not just doing what the rush-heads are doing, just blaming obama.  Nobody credited obama when it rose from 7k to 11k... so when it drops to 10k because of some shit in Greece that Obama can't control, I would hope he couldn't get the blame.

Your friend Matt T did. 

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2010, 06:55:12 AM »
I will blame obama for making a bad situation worse.

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Re: Stock Market Has Biggest One Day Plunge Ever
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2010, 07:17:32 AM »
That trade would be Cancelled...

That would be nice buying it for one cent and cashing out for 40 dollars or so...  a 100 dollar investment would be worth 400,000


I actually had some put options that hit my limit price cause of the huge dip, so i'm happy with what happened..




Really?  So if I had bought it at around $5 or $10 a share, my trade would have been cancelled?