Author Topic: how could someone live after shooting a 7 year old sleeping girl in the head?  (Read 1734 times)

Hugo Chavez

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I was thinking about that, how could you go on after shooting a child in the head?  I don't think I could.  That shit would torment me.  That sack of shit should spend the rest of his life in federal pound him in the ass prison or he should just well, justify it himself.

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I was thinking about that, how could you go on after shooting a child in the head?  I don't think I could.  That shit would torment me.  That sack of shit should spend the rest of his life in federal pound him in the ass prison or he should just well, justify it himself.

I'll guarantee his ass will be handed to him. Not sure what fed prision is like a normal maximum or minimum prison, but if gets into general poplulation, he's gonna be the pass around "bitch" first of all for being a cop

phreak

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He will not do time. He probably won't even lose his job over this. And he does this job because he doesn't have empathy, so he probably won't feel any remorse either.

tonymctones

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all the facts arent in and yet you ppl are condemning this man  >:( what the shit?

yes its a tragedy but jumping to conclusions on info that is changing by the day going back and forth is dumb.

for all we know the truth is they were knowingly harboring a murder suspect in their apartment and when they entered a physical altercation took place and the gun discharged...

you ppl still want to condemn him for that if its true?

phreak

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all the facts arent in and yet you ppl are condemning this man  >:( what the shit?

yes its a tragedy but jumping to conclusions on info that is changing by the day going back and forth is dumb.

for all we know the truth is they were knowingly harboring a murder suspect in their apartment and when they entered a physical altercation took place and the gun discharged...

you ppl still want to condemn him for that if its true?
Do I want to condemn people for storming an apartment known to have children present with guns locked, loaded and drawn?Yes, actually. In fact I posted not two weeks ago that it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. The point is not whether or not there was or was not a homicide suspect on the premises. The point is: you shouldn't storm a family's home toting guns EVER.

tonymctones

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Do I want to condemn people for storming an apartment known to have children present with guns locked, loaded and drawn?Yes, actually. In fact I posted not two weeks ago that it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. The point is not whether or not there was or was not a homicide suspect on the premises. The point is: you shouldn't storm a family's home toting guns EVER.
I can see your point but on the other hand, should they have waited possibly letting the person get away? how about walking up to the door and asking him to come out and possibly letting him take the family hostage?

how about waiting till he leaves the house possibly armed and trying to pull him over so he can open fire?

Like I said in the last thread if you knowingly harbor a murder suspect the police beating down your door is a likely outcome so you bare some responsibility in the outcome of the events that YOU YOURSELF HELPED PUT IN PLACE...

phreak

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I can see your point but on the other hand, should they have waited possibly letting the person get away? how about walking up to the door and asking him to come out and possibly letting him take the family hostage?

how about waiting till he leaves the house possibly armed and trying to pull him over so he can open fire?

Like I said in the last thread if you knowingly harbor a murder suspect the police beating down your door is a likely outcome so you bare some responsibility in the outcome of the events that YOU YOURSELF HELPED PUT IN PLACE...
So the kid was responsible too? And the women who lived there were fully aware they were harboring a murder suspect?

Why not get with the times: shoot him with bean bags when he exits. Shoot him with those newfangled shotgun taser rounds. Stealthily pump sedative gas into the apartment. There are better options than coming in shouting and waving guns around when there are little children present.

And yes, he might have taken the kid hostage. But right now the kid died because of the cops, not in spite of them. Let me ask you this: if you had to choose between risking letting a murder suspect getting away (temporarily), or risk a 7-y.o. kid's head being blown off, which would you choose?


tonymctones

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So the kid was responsible too? And the women who lived there were fully aware they were harboring a murder suspect?

Why not get with the times: shoot him with bean bags when he exits. Shoot him with those newfangled shotgun taser rounds. Stealthily pump sedative gas into the apartment. There are better options than coming in shouting and waving guns around when there are little children present.

And yes, he might have taken the kid hostage. But right now the kid died because of the cops, not in spite of them. Let me ask you this: if you had to choose between risking letting a murder suspect getting away (temporarily), or risk a 7-y.o. kid's head being blown off, which would you choose?
no the kid is not responsible you dingus the parents certainly are though if they knowingly harbored a murder suspect, wouldnt you agree?...and we dont know there are conflicting reports so AGAIN WHY NOT WAIT UNTIL THE TRUTH HAS COME OUT?

pump sedative gas? what if the kid is asthmatic and dies?
shoot him with a taser? what if he dies? its happend

seeing as the risk of him getting away is much greater than a accidental discharge of a weapon during an altercation that just so happens to hit a person in the head during a planned and calculated entry if I felt I could safely extract the person I would procede.

like I said its not ideal to go into a house with kids there but the facts arent out so why dont you wait to condemn the police until they are?

MRDUMPLING

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Do I want to condemn people for storming an apartment known to have children present with guns locked, loaded and drawn?Yes, actually. In fact I posted not two weeks ago that it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. The point is not whether or not there was or was not a homicide suspect on the premises. The point is: you shouldn't storm a family's home toting guns EVER.

Wow...somebody hasn't been to any firearms training schools, much less is even a shooter himself.  Tony is right, the facts aren't in yet and I have heard reports that the cop was in a struggle and the trigger was obviously pulled. 

-If a firearm is locked it means that the safety is engaged while holstered or being handled.  You have been watching too many movies with the "cocked, locked, and ready to rock" line. 

-Firearms should be carried loaded...in a life or death situation or altercation you may have just enough time to just pull the trigger...not to mention injured and can't effectively operate a firearm to chamber a round.  Otherwise you just have an expensive rock or club.

-Drawn...how else do you expect a police officer to clear a house?  That's the danger in that line of work, cops clear rooms with firearms drawn for the obvious. 

-Millions of families have loaded guns about the house.  Most accidents are from a lack of education from parent to child.  Let's not go there...

Once again Tony had it right, lets see what the facts are before we condem this man for life.  I'm a big fan of innocent until proven guilty.  I see many people have lost that part of America. 

Skeletor

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all the facts arent in and yet you ppl are condemning this man  >:( what the shit?

yes its a tragedy but jumping to conclusions on info that is changing by the day going back and forth is dumb.

for all we know the truth is they were knowingly harboring a murder suspect in their apartment and when they entered a physical altercation took place and the gun discharged...

you ppl still want to condemn him for that if its true?

Not quite true, you quote the facts you believe to be true and reject others. You say the family was harboring a criminal but the family's lawyer says the opposite

Fieger criticized other parts of the raid, saying police had a search warrant for the wrong home. He claimed the police didn't receive a warrant for the upper-level apartment, where the target of the raid resided, until after the incident.


Should we believe the lawyer? Not necesarily but neither should we believe the other side.

And the physical altercation does not necessarily mean that the woman attacked the cop, it could just as well mean that as the cop entered the house he made contact with the woman.

So we should not take any sides (either the cop's or the family's) before the true facts come to light (if they do that is, because you can never know if the internal investigation will be 100% accurate or if the findings can really show the truth). At least the State Police will do their investigation in order to avoid a conflict of interest or any potential cover up.

The only undisputed fact is that an innocent child was killed by a bullet in her head/neck.

benchmstr

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all the facts arent in and yet you ppl are condemning this man  >:( what the shit?

yes its a tragedy but jumping to conclusions on info that is changing by the day going back and forth is dumb.

for all we know the truth is they were knowingly harboring a murder suspect in their apartment and when they entered a physical altercation took place and the gun discharged...

you ppl still want to condemn him for that if its true?
don't argue it bro...like i said, people dont care about the truth, or evidence....they just want to blame somebody...

bench

24KT

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I was thinking about that, how could you go on after shooting a child in the head?  I don't think I could.  That shit would torment me.  That sack of shit should spend the rest of his life in federal pound him in the ass prison or he should just well, justify it himself.

That would be an absolute mind fuck fer sure.

I know a cop who had to go through a year of therapy for almost accidently shooting an actor.

A low budget non-union film crew was shooting on the cheap, didn't buy the proper permits or even notify authorities.

They were shooting a convenience store robbery scene after hours... a neighbour called the cops thinking the store was getting robbed, and cops showed up with guns drawn. Cops storm in and find actors in character waving very big guns around while another had a gun to the convenience store owners head, and one cop came this close to sending him to his maker. Cop & actor had a big cry, ...and the film crew got fined up the wazooo. Could you imagine if the scene called for "suicide by cop". That would have been soooo tragic.

A similar thing happened a couple years ago with an Armenian film crew I think. they were driving down the highway shooting inside an SUV and fellow travellers saw what they believed to be the outline of a machine gun aimed at the interior occupants. next thing you know Ontario Provincial Police had them all splayed face down and spread eagle on the pavement, while they searched to ensured all the gunns were in facvt dummie guns and they were indeed a film crew. One of the clowns tried to get some cheap publicity by claiming their tratment was an insult to islam. Sha right! Get a f-ing film permit if you want to shoot scenes... especially ones where you're flashing guns around.

My ex once showed up on a domestic call, and it was some guy arguing with his mother. The guy was trying to establish himself as not being a dangerous prick. He sobbing and saying "If I was a dangerous guy, I would have pulled this out..." then he opens a draw and pulls out an unloaded weapon. needlesss to say once that gun made an appearance, he never got to finish his sentence. Of course at the time, my ex had no way of knowing if it was loaded or not. He made a split second decision. It was either shoot him or rush him. He chose to rush the guy and take the gun away. Thank Goodness it was that decision. The guy was just all emotional and wasn't thinking straight and made a stupid decision to pull out a gun in a situation where police had already been called to the premises and he was being made to look like the bad guy.

Regardless of the outcome of any subsequent investigation... this cop is going to have to live with the fact that he shot a 7 yr old sleeping child in the head.
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tonymctones

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Not quite true, you quote the facts you believe to be true and reject others. You say the family was harboring a criminal but the family's lawyer says the opposite

Fieger criticized other parts of the raid, saying police had a search warrant for the wrong home. He claimed the police didn't receive a warrant for the upper-level apartment, where the target of the raid resided, until after the incident.


Should we believe the lawyer? Not necesarily but neither should we believe the other side.

And the physical altercation does not necessarily mean that the woman attacked the cop, it could just as well mean that as the cop entered the house he made contact with the woman.

So we should not take any sides (either the cop's or the family's) before the true facts come to light (if they do that is, because you can never know if the internal investigation will be 100% accurate or if the findings can really show the truth). At least the State Police will do their investigation in order to avoid a conflict of interest or any potential cover up.

The only undisputed fact is that an innocent child was killed by a bullet in her head/neck.
I never said that the guy was apprehended in the apt, I said for all we know...

exactly which makes this a horribly sad situation which needs to be looked into which they are so lets all cool our condemn the cops rhetoric until then...

Hugo Chavez

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DETROIT – Police who carried out a raid on a family home that left a 7-year-old girl dead over the weekend were accompanied by a camera crew for a reality television show, and an attorney says video of the siege contradicts the police account of what happened.

Geoffrey Fieger, an attorney for the family of young Aiyana Jones, said he has seen three or four minutes of video of the raid, although he declined to say whether it was shot by the crew for the A&E series "The First 48," which has been shadowing Detroit homicide detectives for months.

Police have said officers threw a flash grenade through the first-floor window of the two-family home, and that an officer's gun discharged, killing the girl, during a struggle or after colliding with the girl's grandmother inside the home.

But Fieger said the video shows an officer lobbing the grenade and then shooting into the home from the porch.

"There is no question about what happened because it's in the videotape," Fieger said. "It's not an accident. It's not a mistake. There was no altercation."

"Aiyana Jones was shot from outside on the porch. The videotape shows clearly the officer throwing through the window a stun grenade-type explosive and then within milliseconds of throwing that, firing a shot from outside the home," he said.

A&E spokesman Dan Silberman said neither he nor anyone else from the network would comment about the case, and he denied a request by The Associated Press for the footage.

Detroit police were trying to obtain the film crew's footage, Assistant Chief Ralph Godbee said Monday.

Fieger said the investigation into what happened during the raid "needed to go no further than the videotape."

"The videotape shows clearly that the assistant police chief and the officers on the scene are engaging in an intentional cover up of the events," Fieger said. He said more than one camera was recording at the scene, and that the footage includes sound.

Police arrested the target of the raid, a 34-year-old man suspected of killing a 17-year-old boy, in the upstairs unit in the two-family home. Police had warrants to search both properties, and family members of the slain girl were seen going in and out of both on Monday. The suspect has not been charged, and it was not immediately clear what relationship he had to the slain girl.

The case has been handed over to the Michigan State Police to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy said Monday.

Some, including the slain girl's family and others, have questioned what effect the cameras may have had on the tactics used during raid on the home, which had toys strewn about the front lawn on Monday.

The police department is understaffed, and officers have said they feel vulnerable — especially after one patrolman was killed and four others were wounded during a gunfight with a suspect in a vacant home earlier this month.

Two prominent criminal defense attorneys said they were unaware of past instances when Detroit police used flash grenades in raids when children were possibly present.

"That's a new one," said Detroit lawyer Corbett Edge O'Meara. "That does seem to be a pretty extreme measure. It doesn't surprise me that the police had no concern whether they were endangering the lives of children when they made this raid."

Attorney Marvin Barnett was more blunt: "I've never heard that before in my entire career, that you've thrown a flash bomb in a house unless you've got an armed suspect and you know there is nobody else in the house."

"I'd like to know who gave the order to do that," Barnett said.

Godbee said the department was confident the film crew's presence had no effect on how the raid was conducted. He said the police department's use of flash grenades is decided on a "case by case" basis.

"It primarily goes to the severity of the crime and the potential of violence from the offender we're trying to get in custody," Godbee said.

He declined to comment on whether the officers involved in the raid were aware children were in the home.

"Our tactics absolutely will be addressed and assessed at the appropriate time," Godbee said.

The family was left searching for answers. They retained Fieger, a high-powered attorney who also represented assisted suicide advocate Dr. Jack Kevorkian, but the girl's father said he wants to know what led to his daughter's death.

"They killed my baby, and I want someone to tell the truth," he said Sunday.

Police have not identified the officer whose gun fired the shot that killed Aiyana. Godbee said he is a 14-year veteran with six to seven years on the Special Response Team, and that he has been placed on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation.

The officer was cleared following a nonfatal shooting last summer. Police were fired upon by someone barricaded in a house and returned fire, Godbee said.

The Detroit police department has been under two court-ordered consent decrees since 2003 aimed at, among other things, correcting how and when its officers use force on suspects.

The department declined to say whether it was being paid by the television show.

tonymctones

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there is a article from yesterday when the fleiger guy said it was on video but didnt show the officer shooting just sound...

again way to much conflicting info right now

phreak

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no the kid is not responsible you dingus the parents certainly are though if they knowingly harbored a murder suspect, wouldnt you agree?...and we dont know there are conflicting reports so AGAIN WHY NOT WAIT UNTIL THE TRUTH HAS COME OUT?
The kid died because cops stormed the house. There are no ifs and buts about it. Without the cops storming in, the kid would still be alive. End of discussion.

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pump sedative gas? what if the kid is asthmatic and dies?
Yes, you can die from asthma too. I suspect that the kill rate would be somewhat lower than a bullet in your brain, though.

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shoot him with a taser? what if he dies? its happend
If he had made a wrong move now, he would have died with 20+ bullets in his ass. In such an event I'd take my chances with the taser.

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seeing as the risk of him getting away is much greater than a accidental discharge of a weapon during an altercation that just so happens to hit a person in the head during a planned and calculated entry if I felt I could safely extract the person I would procede.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why it is so important to pick suspects up in this manner? Just curious: how many murderers are serial murderers? Was there a reasonable suspicion that this guy was on a rampage and would almost certainly keep killing and killing? If so, then yes, arresting him a.s.a.p. is a priority. But again: how many people actually go on a killing spree after their first murder? If that's 90%, then this situation may have been necessary. If it's 10% or less (which I suspect) then there was no need to storm the house, and he could have been arrested later in a safer manner.

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like I said its not ideal to go into a house with kids there but the facts arent out so why dont you wait to condemn the police until they are?
Because these facts are irrelevant. All adults and even the kid itself could have attacked the invaders with every weapon in sight. That is not the crux of the matter. The point is: no matter what the people in the house did, the ONLY reason that the kid is dead, is because armed cops invaded the place. Had they not invaded the kid would be alive with 100% certainty.

24KT

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I saw an interesting rant on the net the other day about a woman mad as heck that police stormed into her house with guns drawn, and had the audacity to charge her with endangering a minor. I thought it was rather ironic.
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phreak

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Wow...somebody hasn't been to any firearms training schools, much less is even a shooter himself. 
It's been a while, I'll grant you that.

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-If a firearm is locked it means that the safety is engaged while holstered or being handled.  You have been watching too many movies with the "cocked, locked, and ready to rock" line.
You are right: that's where I pick up a lot of English idiom -- however incorrect it may be. I could have used the proper terms in my native tongue, but that would have been meaningless to you.

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Once again Tony had it right, lets see what the facts are before we condem this man for life.  I'm a big fan of innocent until proven guilty.  I see many people have lost that part of America. 
Just like your buddy Tony you keep missing the point. For all I know the kid grabbed the cop's gun and blew her own brains out. Neither of us knows what happened. But the simple fact remains: if the cops would not have raided the house, the kid would be alive right now. No matter what the circumstances, no matter who pulled the trigger, no matter who resisted arrest or not. The moment someone at the police office decided that an arrest team should go in brandishing firearms, the child was instantly placed in grave danger.

phreak

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I saw an interesting rant on the net the other day about a woman mad as heck that police stormed into her house with guns drawn, and had the audacity to charge her with endangering a minor. I thought it was rather ironic.
wasn't that a topic here as well, a few weeks back? A SWAT team raided a house for a very minor amount of pot, brandishing guns, and they had the nerve to charge the parents with reckless endangerment. I commented then that it was only a matter of time before SWAT murdered innocent children themselves. Sometimes I hate being right all the time.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=329809.msg4707141#msg4707141

24KT

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It's been a while, I'll grant you that.
You are right: that's where I pick up a lot of English idiom -- however incorrect it may be. I could have used the proper terms in my native tongue, but that would have been meaningless to you.
Just like your buddy Tony you keep missing the point. For all I know the kid grabbed the cop's gun and blew her own brains out. Neither of us knows what happened. But the simple fact remains: if the cops would not have raided the house, the kid would be alive right now. No matter what the circumstances, no matter who pulled the trigger, no matter who resisted arrest or not. The moment someone at the police office decided that an arrest team should go in brandishing firearms, the child was instantly placed in grave danger.

Phreak,

There is no point arguing common sense with some of these idiots. They are all wannabe hardass tough guys,
who think it's gestapo storm trooper like behaviour cool & manly.
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24KT

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wasn't that a topic here as well, a few weeks back? A SWAT team raided a house for a very minor amount of pot, brandishing guns, and they had the nerve to charge the parents with reckless endangerment. I commented then that it was only a matter of time before SWAT murdered innocent children themselves. Sometimes I hate being right all the time.

That could very well have been where I saw it. Was that the one where they shot the dog?
I remember seeing it around that time.
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phreak

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That could very well have been where I saw it. Was that the one where they shot the dog?
I remember seeing it around that time.
Yup; added the link to my previous post.

phreak

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Phreak,

There is no point arguing common sense with some of these idiots. They are all wannabe hardass tough guys,
who think it's gestapo storm trooper like behaviour cool & manly.
I blame the media. ;D

But seriously: why do people fall for this shit? Why accept it, and even praise it? Why do so many americans believe it is necessary, and even normal? Just because it looks cool on TV? If so, then I hope they show the vid of this raid on TV as well, with the cheery COPS tune dubbed over it. But somehow I doubt that will happen.

24KT

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I blame the media. ;D

But seriously: why do people fall for this shit? Why accept it, and even praise it?

Because it makes them feel less vulnerable. Alot of these guys have deep seated insecurities from the time they were 110lb weaklings getting sand kicked in their faces. being a big musclebound badass means they'll never be bullied again.

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Why do so many americans believe it is necessary, and even normal? Just because it looks cool on TV?

Because they are American, extremely insular, and having forgotten how to think for themselves. So unfortunately, their constant exposure to media messages and manipulations form the basis of their reality, and it becomes normal. Most non-Americans have no idea how sheltered and sequestered the average American is, and are absolutely floored and flabberghasted when they discover. Most don't know because they cannot relate to that level of ignorance and insulation. It's pretty mindboggling.

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If so, then I hope they show the vid of this raid on TV as well, with the cheery COPS tune dubbed over it. But somehow I doubt that will happen.

it'll probably be kept under lock & key as material evidence in an ongoing invvestigation... after which it will conveniently be shoved down the memory hole.
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SAMSON123

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