What is the natural limit?

[kyomu]

You always hear steroid abusers claim they needed to take the juice to surpass their natural limit.  what is this limit, when does it happen and how do you know it has happened?

That always i ask to everybody.
How can we know the limit?
To know the limit, you must do everything "correct".
The thing is, who has accompished that?
I make evolucion every year. I dont know when i will stop.

[240 is Back]

thanks shifted, makes me feel a tad better.  I guess that it's just like women who look at cosmo all day then think they look terrible no matter what (by comparison).

[shiftedShapes]

Jim Quinn. Gold's.

If I recall it was Billy Smith at Gold's, and it was a historic first time measurement.  Jim Quinn reported on it during the telecast of that year's Mr Olympia.

1993 was a great year.

[shiftedShapes]

thanks shifted, makes me feel a tad better.  I guess that it's just like women who look at cosmo all day then think they look terrible no matter what (by comparison).

you know what they say: no body-dismorphic anxietal pain, no consistent hypertrophic gain.

[lovemonkey]

If I recall it was Billy Smith at Gold's, and it was a historic first time measurement.  Jim Quinn reported on it during the telecast of that year's Mr Olympia.

1993 was a great year.

0 %. Caliper.

[mar10s]

is that a joke, sev used tons of juice and STILL has a terrible body

Yes, that was a joke and no, you are not joking.

[Van_Bilderass]

Maybe they are doing something wrong, I've seen people progress as the years went by, tried different things and BOOM 15-20 more lbs! I'm sorry I disagree with you on most of your post, but I do agree you make A LOT of gains in the very beginning its almost the foundation being laid out, you can only build so much onto it!

Could you maybe show an example of this? Someone who has trained even half way intelligently for years and then all of a sudden added 15-20lbs of LBM. What kind of change did they implement? Give us an example of what kind of change causes these kinds of radical results.

[Ursus]

Meso is pretty much the most impressive natural I have seen on this site.

Is he at his limit? I doubt it.

Will he add a 'significant' amount more mass (e.g 15-25lbs) Very very much doubt it.

[tendonitis]

That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.

I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.

bingo.  this is dead on

[dustin]

That it takes decades to reach your so-called natural limit in muscle mass is just so much bullshit. The absolute majority of muscle you're ever going to build is built in the first couple of years of intelligent lifting and eating. Let's say something like at least 90% in the first 2 years. The next 2 or so years you gain the next 8-9% and you're basically THERE. For all intents and purposes you're for sure finished growing after less than 5 years of reasonably intelligent lifting. What a few posters have said here, that they're not really growing much after decades is true. "Muscle quality" may improve, though that's pretty vague and subjective term. Muscle growth isn't a slow process where you add a steady 1-2lbs a year for decades. It comes in bursts and drug free maximum muscle potential is realized very quickly.

I know people who have lifted clean for over 20 years and claim they're still growing and "progressing". I wonder how they measure this "growth" since they've weighed the exact same for 2 decades, and in many cases they're actually lighter and weaker than they were in their 20s for example.

Yup. After you put on the initial bulk with decent conditioning, the rest is just refinement. You can bring up some lagging parts, dial in your conditioning and look harder with less water between the muscle and skin but that's about it. You can't expect to magically pack on sheaths of muscle year after year. That's ludicrous.

[Ursus]

For the first 3 years I trained I did not really squat.
Did not eat enough protein
Did not train hard and smart enough.

It is only the last say year I have addressed these issues and am making the best gains I have made in a couple of years.

[Ursus]

What if there is no limit but the process just becomes extremely slow?

Up to a point this is possible.

However then we age and get older. Things take priority in lives. It becomes less of a priority/goal to constantly improve.

[BIG ACH]

What if there is no limit but the process just becomes extremely slow?

Thats pretty much what happens.   Its a game of patience as I said earlier, you either wanna do it or you don't!

[dustin]

What if there is no limit but the process just becomes extremely slow?

The margin of muscle you put on at the beginning vs afterwards is a stark contrast. You can undoubtedly put on more muscle after the first few years, but once the bar is raised those increments are going to be very, very small. And you can't expect to stay very lean and trim if you want to maximize the amount of muscle you put on.

This is all under the assumption that you're able to train your balls off day in, day out. I used to scoff at people who quit working out hardcore after a while... then I grew up. Work, women, now home life and starting a family... yeah, there are a lot of things that take priority. I'd much rather be pumping up all day but you've got to have your priorities straight.

[dyslexic]

I think guys like Chris Faildo have reached their "limit"

[saucetradomous]

I believe people greatly underestimate their true natural limits!  Some go on juice before they really reach it.

It takes years to really discover one's true natural limit, maybe 20 years or more...  Not 5 years like some may be claiming!


One of the best natural bodybuilders that I've ever know is Sean Sullivan a guy who used to help me prep for shows... Sean's been competing since 1981, and one of his BEST ever showing was in 2006, he still finds he makes great improvements today both in the gym and in the way he looks!

This is a sport of consistency and lots ad lots of patience!


For those who are posting up pictures, you all look great, and even though I don't know much about you I think you are all cutting yourself short if you are claiming thats your natural limit!

I agree it takes years to potentially reach the natural limit but every true natural I have come across falls within this subjective framework...

5'7 - 170-180lbs,
5'10, 185-195lbs
6' 200-205lbs.

(all within a few lbs give or take but its not written in stone)

Right now I sit about 165-170lbs contest ready, I've been training for 13 years and am still making progress in strength but visually it appears slow.  I figure I could probably put on another 5lbs in 10 years time max.  But will see, It's all about being stronger now.


(For the record, I do not think I'm anywhere near the natural limit)

[dj181]

The process isn't slow, if you train right and effectively YOU WILL gain quickly. My problem is that I don't train consistantly. But I totally are with van. Mike Mentzer said that one can fully actualize their genetic potential less than one year, I think he could be right about this, but I just get too distracted with other things ( girlfriends, sex buddies) to fully test his theory, and it doesn't help that I refuse to train legs or calves at all LOL

[dyslexic]

Albeit Mike Mentzer was highly intelligent... he balanced his extreme levels of intelligence with extreme ignorance.



You could not, would not, will not and cannot reach your "genetic potential" in one year.



End of story.

[dj181]

Ok, but what about making rapid gains very quickly? At the moment my arm measures 39cm, which is roughly 15 and 1/3 inches, and I've just started a kind of creatine experiment and I fully expect to gain 3 or 4 cm, which is about 1 and 1/2 inches in less than 4 weeks. I have a photo of the before shot of my left arm under the tread untitled "creatine" with my bodyweight and waist measurement as well. To be honest, I am quite confident that I will be able to do this, but if I don't then I will admit it.

[lovemonkey]

Ok, but what about making rapid gains very quickly? At the moment my arm measures 39cm, which is roughly 15 and 1/3 inches, and I've just started a kind of creatine experiment and I fully expect to gain 3 or 4 cm, which is about 1 and 1/2 inches in less than 4 weeks. I have a photo of the before shot of my left arm under the tread untitled "creatine" with my bodyweight and waist measurement as well. To be honest, I am quite confident that I will be able to do this, but if I don't then I will admit it.

Yeah it's possible if you gain like 20lbs of FAT.

[lovemonkey]

100 pounds.  Your welcome

Have you ever contributed something worthwhile to this board? I mean, ever?

[WillGrant]

twice

LOL 
BDB Brings the LOLZ Naw what I mean dog hahaha

[dj181]

We will see, but if I do gain 20 pounds of fat, then it will go to my waist, but not to my arms LOL I took a waist measurement, so it will be documented as well.

[kyomu]

Good thread. I see some positive attitude.

[kyomu]

Is that you sauce? Look fuckin sick man

X2
He has the great quads sweep.