Don't Ask; Don't Tell, Not So Bad? ROTC Girl "Comes Out" On Eve of Graduation

[OzmO]

no other army comes from the culture of the US...

Yep. we are still a bit homophobic and holy rollers by nature, But so what?  You could have made the same argument in the 1950's with integration in the military.

[Dos Equis]

I'm sure its already been said, but GAY MEN already share locker rooms and showers in the US military.

Not openly.  I hear that a lot, but don't really see it as being relevant.  Sort of like a man convincingly passing himself off as a woman sharing a women's locker room wouldn't cause a problem, while a real man in a women's locker room would be a huge problem. 

[drkaje]

Yep. we are still a bit homophobic and holy rollers by nature, But so what?  You could have made the same argument in the 1950's with integration in the military.

Are gays a separate race?

[Dos Equis]

Are gays a separate race?

Or, more accurately, are GLBT and "gender identity" separate races? 

[drkaje]

Or, more accurately, are GLBT and "gender identity" separate races? 

I always find the gay/black comparison amusing.

[Straw Man]

Not openly.  I hear that a lot, but don't really see it as being relevant.  Sort of like a man convincingly passing himself off as a woman sharing a women's locker room wouldn't cause a problem, while a real man in a women's locker room would be a huge problem. 

exactly

the only difference is that you might actually know they are gay

eventually you'll get over it

by "you" I don't mean you

[Dos Equis]

I always find the gay/black comparison amusing.

Not much of a comparison.  As Colin Powell succinctly said (before supporting the repeal of DADT), race is innate, sexual preference is not. 

[Straw Man]

Not much of a comparison.  As Colin Powell succinctly said (before supporting the repeal of DADT), race is innate, sexual preference is not. 

homosexuals are the same race as you so what's the problem

I'm straight and I don't see what other straight guys are so worried about

like we all already know, most of us share locker rooms with gays guys and we're still straight

if anything, sharing a locker room will make you more straight (if that's actually possible)

men are friggin disgusting (myself included)

[OzmO]

Not openly.  I hear that a lot, but don't really see it as being relevant.  Sort of like a man convincingly passing himself off as a woman sharing a women's locker room wouldn't cause a problem, while a real man in a women's locker room would be a huge problem. 

The issue is about having gays in the locker rooms and showers and the problems it would cause.  My point is they are already there and therefore is kind of a moot argument. 

[tonymctones]

The issue is about having gays in the locker rooms and showers and the problems it would cause.  My point is they are already there and therefore is kind of a moot argument. 

actually in the military they are not as men are presumably straight....there are officially only straight men in locker rooms, again when you introduce gay men that find other men sexually diserable into the equation it changes...

for those who are for gays in the military are you also for coed locker rooms? and if so are you going to argue the same shit you are now with the women who dont want us in their locker room?

I seriously doubt it...

[Straw Man]

actually in the military they are not as men are presumably straight....there are officially only straight men in locker rooms, again when you introduce gay men that find other men sexually diserable into the equation it changes...

for those who are for gays in the military are you also for coed locker rooms? and if so are you going to argue the same shit you are now with the women who dont want us in their locker room?

I seriously doubt it...

the only part of the equation that changes is that you are now officially aware that some people around you might not be straight

other than that there is nothing else that is changing

[tonymctones]

the only part of the equation that changes is that you are now officially aware that some people around you might not be straight

other than that there is nothing else that is changing

wrong sir...so as long as the women dont know there is a peep hole its ok?

you have to understand where your logic leads...thats your problem straw you never look to see where your logic leads...I understand what youre saying but take that logic and apply it to another situation...

[Straw Man]

wrong sir...so as long as the women dont know there is a peep hole its ok?

you have to understand where your logic leads...thats your problem straw you never look to see where your logic leads...I understand what youre saying but take that logic and apply it to another situation...

tony - seriously man - stop using the word logic and instead just dazzle us with your logic

I don't understand what women and a peep hole have to do with the topic at hand

are you saying you feel like a woman if you're forced to officially be aware that gay people exist and might be in the same locker room?

[tonymctones]

tony - seriously man - stop using the word logic and instead just dazzle us with your logic

I don't understand what women and a peep hole have to do with the topic at hand

are you saying you feel like a woman if you're forced to officially be aware that gay people exist and might be in the same locker room?

LOL being officially aware is the big thing...

basically youre saying there is no difference between a person looking through a peep hole without a person knowing it and with a person knowing it...

KNOWING MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

right now all ppl in the military ARE PRESUMABLY STRAIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

when you introduce gays into the equation it changes the outcome 

[chadstallion]

I wouldn't care if they had co-ed locker rooms

like I said, most of the women in my gym are fat slobs and I wish they would cover up more on the gym floor much less the locker room

the reason you're confused is because you have no logical conclusion......as usual

two examples of co ed showers.

[MCWAY]

Yes other countries have allowed homosexuals to serve, but not sure if places like Israel has all of the recognized gender classifications we have created in this country and/or how they deal with it.  

Other countries, including Israel, also have mandatory military service. So, it ain't that hard to see how gays end up in the mix.

[OzmO]

Other countries, including Israel, also have mandatory military service. So, it ain't that hard to see how gays end up in the mix.

Hi McWay,

Right now at this moment, and in the future, there are gays in the military taking showers with straight men.

[OzmO]

LOL being officially aware is the big thing...

basically youre saying there is no difference between a person looking through a peep hole without a person knowing it and with a person knowing it...

KNOWING MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

right now all ppl in the military ARE PRESUMABLY STRAIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

when you introduce gays into the equation it changes the outcome 

I agree with your point.  Any person in the military right now can rest assured that someone is gay and staring at them in the shower.  They just don't know who and by knowing who it would change things.  So what?  Other countries figured it out.

[tonymctones]

I agree with your point.  Any person in the military right now can rest assured that someone is gay and staring at them in the shower.  They just don't know who and by knowing who it would change things.  So what?  Other countries figured it out.

OZ simply b/c other countries do it doesnt give justification for us doing it....

some countries have unisex showers, bathrooms etc...how come nobody is arguing for that? this is logically where something like this will lead...

some countries dont let women vote...should we institute it here b/c "other countries do it"?...

you have to look at it from OUR perspective by our I mean the US...In the US ppl that have the potential to be sexually attracted to one another are seperated in public restrooms, showers, etc...we have laws that assure this, we have law that protect the privacy of individuals in regards to sexual harrasement, exposure, etc...

allowing openly gays to bunk, shower and use will violate those laws...again its more than a simple set of problems oz its a change in the way of thinking...

[OzmO]

Not much of a comparison.  As Colin Powell succinctly said (before supporting the repeal of DADT), race is innate, sexual preference is not. 

It's not an exact comparison, obviously, and how much of a comparison in regards to whether its a good or bad one is really just matter of opinion.

However, there are similarities:

-  opponents of integration cited that allowing blacks to serve alongside whites would damage moral.  The same is being said with gays.
-  Same with unit cohesion
-  discrimination can or does exist for both minorities and gays
-  Many of the problems are rooted in assumptions about gays and minorities.  
I read this in an article on the subject:  "Most people think of racial identity as a matter of (racial) status, but they respond to it as behavior. Most people think of sexual identity as a matter of (sexual) behavior, but they respond to it as status. Accordingly, people who fear and dislike blacks are typically preoccupied with the threat that they think blacks' aggressive behavior poses to them.  Hence they're inclined to make exceptions for the kindly, "civilized" blacks: that's why "The Cosby Show" could be so popular among white South Africans. By contrast, the repugnance that many people feel toward gays concerns, in the first instance, the status ascribed to them. Disapproval of a sexual practice is transmuted into the demonization of a sexual species."



Interesting note:  when Truman issue in the integration order, 63% of the american public was against it.

[OzmO]

OZ simply b/c other countries do it doesnt give justification for us doing it....
some countries have unisex showers, bathrooms etc...how come nobody is arguing for that? this is logically where something like this will lead...

some countries dont let women vote...should we institute it here b/c "other countries do it"?..

Where does the word "justification" come into this discussion?  I'm not arguing that because other countries do "X" we are justified in doing "X" also.  I'm simply pointing out that other countries have found a way to solve some of these problems and they ARE working.

you have to look at it from OUR perspective by our I mean the US...

In reading up on the similarities between integration in the military and gays in the military, i found out that 63% of americans opposed integration in the military.  Sometimes OUR perspective is wrong and it  takes forward thinkers, like Truman, to do the right thing.

In the US ppl that have the potential to be sexually attracted to one another are seperated in public restrooms, showers, etc...we have laws that assure this, we have law that protect the privacy of individuals in regards to sexual harrasement, exposure, etc..

allowing openly gays to bunk, shower and use will violate those laws...again its more than a simple set of problems oz its a change in the way of thinking...

Do you believe all those laws would go out the window once a ban was lifted?  .....that all of a sudden there would be a frenzy of sexual harassment?

[tonymctones]

Where does the word "justification" come into this discussion?  I'm not arguing that because other countries do "X" we are justified in doing "X" also.  I'm simply pointing out that other countries have found a way to solve some of these problems and they ARE working.


In reading up on the similarities between integration in the military and gays in the military, i found out that 63% of americans opposed integration in the military.  Sometimes OUR perspective is wrong and it  takes forward thinkers, like Truman, to do the right thing.

Do you believe all those laws would go out the window once a ban was lifted?  .....that all of a sudden there would be a frenzy of sexual harassment?

LOL your using other countries as proof that it can happen...youre justifying your frame of thinking that gays should be allowed inthe military through the fact that other countries have done it...

I agree that at times it takes foreward thinkers to help move society along...

No those laws wouldnt go out the window but youre ignorant if you think that those laws wouldnt present problems with the implementation of openly serving gays in the military...those laws are there b/c we as a society feel they are needed for one reason or another...circumventing the laws or saying that they dont apply here or to a certain group of ppl GLBT is not fair and again would take a change in thinking not simply solving a small set of problems to deal with...

[MCWAY]

Hi McWay,

Right now at this moment, and in the future, there are gays in the military taking showers with straight men.

Right now at this moment, and in the future, there are crackheads in the military, taking showers with sober men.

If they get caught violating the drug policy, they're gone; just as gays are with "Don't Ask; Don't Tell".

[OzmO]

LOL your using other countries as proof that it can happen...youre justifying your frame of thinking that gays should be allowed inthe military through the fact that other countries have done it...

I agree that at times it takes foreward thinkers to help move society along...

No those laws wouldnt go out the window but youre ignorant if you think that those laws wouldnt present problems with the implementation of openly serving gays in the military...those laws are there b/c we as a society feel they are needed for one reason or another...circumventing the laws or saying that they dont apply here or to a certain group of ppl GLBT is not fair and again would take a change in thinking not simply solving a small set of problems to deal with...

I think "justifying" is the wrong word to use here.  If a transmission on a car was broke and your answer/solution differed from mine and i cited other examples of how my solution would work, You could say i was "justifying" my answer, but really, I'd be "supporting" it.

Of course there would be problems.  As with any change there is a period of adjustment.  Integration didn't do away with discrimination.  It probably increased for a period before it significantly decreased.  i think, I could be wrong, but Sexual harassment has harsher consequences so the adjustment will be quicker.

If you think about it the arguments against open gays in the military are backward, not forward in nature. (like the pun?  )

[OzmO]

Right now at this moment, and in the future, there are crackheads in the military, taking showers with sober men.

If they get caught violating the drug policy, they're gone; just as gays are with "Don't Ask; Don't Tell".

So?