come participate in a discussion about training

[tbombz]

The Rules!


when it comes to training, the proof is in the pudding.

there are hundreds of books, ebooks, dvds etc dedicated to particular methods of training. some claim their way is the only effective way. some insist that certain ways wont work at all.

the idea of a "perfect training program" is flawed.

there isnt a single perfect program. you have only relative effectiveness. you can have a "best" training program. and a "second best". and so on.

but the first rule overrides any "best" program.. it is rule number one:

1. Periodization is king.
  -"everything works, but nothing works forever".
     a)  even the best possible program can be adapted to by the body.
         

the second rule is a more commonly known of principle, but few people actually abide by it. this is the principle of progressive overload.

2. you must always get stronger.
   -Kaizen method: small, incremental changes in weight week by week.
      a) either more weight for equal reps, or more reps with equal weight.
       



these are two rules to bodybuilding training. lets come up with some more

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________

[tbombz]

"true failure" is a misnomer. there is no such thing as "true failure", there is only "perceived failure".

perceived failure is the point when gravity's force over comes your own, when yor pushing(or pulling) "as hard as you can push" and you cant get the bar to move.

for all intensive purpouses, we can just use the term failure ineterchangably with perceived failure.


going to the point of "failure" causes significant trauma to the body, and hampers the ability of the body to recover. because of this, if one is goign to lift to the point of failure, their total volume of training must be low enough to compensat for the added demands on their recovery ability.


because of this fact, two distinct types of training emerge:

low volume, failure training

high volume, sub-failure training

[tbombz]

with this limited info we can actually develop "the perfect routine" ?

[Coach is Back!]

Any kind of training or just bodybuilding?

[tbombz]

one more rule(this one scientific, and related to training frequency):

the bulk of protein synthesis occurs within 48 hours of a training bout.

[Coach is Back!]

with this limited info we can actually develop "the perfect routine" ?

No such thing as a perfect routine. Every routine has it's flaws.

[#1 Klaus fan]

"a)  even the best possible program can be adapted to by the body."

That's the point? 

[Coach is Back!]

one more rule(this one scientific, and related to training frequency):

the bulk of protein synthesis occurs within 48 hours of a training bout.

Science is not absolute. If it were there would be no need for debates.

[tbombz]

do you agree that after 2 or 3 days the growth response has finished occuring?? (and this is bodybuilding training)

[che]

Nothing new to discuss Tbombz , the magic undiscovered routine doesn't exist,   just train hard consistently.

[Get Rowdy]

Medium/Low volume (depending on your definition of high volume)
High frequency
Sub-failure

If as you say, the bulk of protein synthesis occurs w/in 48 hrs of training you just need to focus on progressively getting stronger but not training so intensely to the point that you can't train very frequently.

Going by this, I aim to train a bodypart 3 times one week, 2 the next, then back to 3.  But keeping work sets for each bodypart at 3-4 each session.  Aiming for more weight or reps each session, eventually you will reach a point where you have to train to 'failure'.  Once you can't increase either weight or reps, drop back the weight to a point where it will take you maybe 2 weeks to build back to where you couldn't increase anymore, and continue through.  Or change exercise.

[tbombz]

get rowdy, that is exactly what i meant. high frequency is key.


every bodybuilder's goal shoudl be to train every muscle as frequently as they can without overtraining.




this leads to another rule:

if your getting the results, then you are not overtraining. 

[tbombz]

Nothing new to discuss Tbombz , the magic undiscovered routine doesn't exist,   just train hard consistently.

common sense prevails

the "perfect routine" must incorporate periodization.


that is the fatal flaw of all routines which claim to be the best

[#1 Klaus fan]

this leads to another rule:

if your getting the results, then you are not overtraining. 

Many programs are based on overreaching ie accumulated fatigue over a longer period of time. When a break is taken, the body compensates and you get bigger/stronger. This is just not seen during training, but only after the break. Why do you think strength athletes start to taper their training a few months or a month from a competition? So their body could rejuvenate and they could be at their strongest.

[tbombz]

here is what i am thinking






two phases.

1. high volume, sub failure.

2.very low volume, failure.


rotate back and forth between these two phases.


during high volume, sub failure training you will train in the 5-20 rep range and never go near the point of failure. you will use heavy weights and proper form. total sets can be as many as 50 (or more).

during low volume, failure trainign you will train in the 1-5 rep range and only do a one or two sets per body part, warm ups excluded. proper form is a must. you must push as far as you can for optimal results. (remember, no "true failure", only perceived failure)


at the end of each phase you must be using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you completed that phase.

[#1 Klaus fan]

I don't see much point in failure training. Who trains like that? Not pro bodybuilders.  You can get SO much stronger by avoiding failure like plague.

[Coach is Back!]

common sense prevails

the "perfect routine" must incorporate periodization.


that is the fatal flaw of all routines which claim to be the best

Mmmm, no. I do periodize my programs leading up to a season but to periodize is not the only way and just because it's not used doesn't mean a program isn't just as effective. Seems you just learned a new word (periodization) googled some info and now you're ready to debate it.

[Palpatine Q]

No such thing as a perfect routine. Every routine has it's flaws.

My routine is flawless

[BIG ACH]

People that bitch about over-training are not even close!!!!!

I train for 2-3 hours a day and I've never thought "oh my god, I'm over-training, I better back off"

Get in there and JUST LIFT weights like there is no tomorrow!

[io856]

Wernbom M, Augustsson J, Thomeé R. The influence of frequency, intensity, volume and mode of strength training on whole muscle cross-sectional area in humans. Sports Med. 2007;37(3):225-64.

[lesaucer]

I don't see much point in failure training. Who trains like that? Not pro bodybuilders.  You can get SO much stronger by avoiding failure like plague.

haha fucking pussy. tell that to ronnie,levrone,dorian,etc...

[io856]

haha fucking pussy. tell that to ronnie,levrone,dorian,etc...

+ way way way more bodybuilders successful and otherwise

I think tbombz said failure training stimulated a greater % of muscle fibers as opposed to sub maximal sets

To be honest the best training periodization in my opinion and experience... would be suckmymuscle's thread about low volume training and high volume... very similar to what tbombz proposed in this thread... but suckmymuscle makes the proposal very convincing by going into the science behind it with very arrogant tones... also he is very good with the written word...

[Coach is Back!]

here is what i am thinking






two phases.

1. high volume, sub failure.

2.very low volume, failure.


rotate back and forth between these two phases.


during high volume, sub failure training you will train in the 5-20 rep range and never go near the point of failure. you will use heavy weights and proper form. total sets can be as many as 50 (or more).

during low volume, failure trainign you will train in the 1-5 rep range and only do a one or two sets per body part, warm ups excluded. proper form is a must. you must push as far as you can for optimal results. (remember, no "true failure", only perceived failure)


at the end of each phase you must be using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you completed that phase.

What is length of each periodization? Are you just using two phases in your periodization? When you start training for a show 12-16 weeks out are you still going to only use 2 periodizations? If so, why? Just a few things to consider!

[#1 Klaus fan]

haha fucking pussy. tell that to ronnie,levrone,dorian,etc...

Ronnie trained to failure? Since when. 

[clued-up]

I train for 2-3 hours a day

You do?