Author Topic: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???  (Read 639 times)

kcballer

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Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« on: July 02, 2010, 11:24:46 AM »
John B. Henry was hiking in Maine's Acadia National Park one August in the 1980s when he first heard his friend C. Boyden Gray talk about cleaning up the environment by letting people buy and sell the right to pollute. Gray, a tall, lanky heir to a tobacco fortune, was then working as a lawyer in the Reagan White House, where environmental ideas were only slightly more popular than godless Communism. "I thought he was smoking dope," recalls Henry, a Washington, D.C. entrepreneur. But if the system Gray had in mind now looks like a politically acceptable way to slow climate change—an approach being hotly debated in Congress—you could say that it got its start on the global stage on that hike up Acadia's Cadillac Mountain.

People now call that system "cap-and-trade." But back then the term of art was "emissions trading," though some people called it "morally bankrupt" or even "a license to kill." For a strange alliance of free-market Republicans and renegade environmentalists, it represented a novel approach to cleaning up the world—by working with human nature instead of against it.

Despite powerful resistance, these allies got the system adopted as national law in 1990, to control the power-plant pollutants that cause acid rain. With the help of federal bureaucrats willing to violate the cardinal rule of bureaucracy—by surrendering regulatory power to the marketplace—emissions trading would become one of the most spectacular success stories in the history of the green movement. Congress is now considering whether to expand the system to cover the carbon dioxide emissions implicated in climate change—a move that would touch the lives of almost every American. So it's worth looking back at how such a radical idea first got translated into action, and what made it work.

The problem in the 1980s was that American power plants were sending up vast clouds of sulfur dioxide, which was falling back to earth in the form of acid rain, damaging lakes, forests and buildings across eastern Canada and the United States. The squabble about how to fix this problem had dragged on for years. Most environmentalists were pushing a "command-and-control" approach, with federal officials requiring utilities to install scrubbers capable of removing the sulfur dioxide from power-plant exhausts. The utility companies countered that the cost of such an approach would send them back to the Dark Ages. By the end of the Reagan administration, Congress had put forward and slapped down 70 different acid rain bills, and frustration ran so deep that Canada's prime minister bleakly joked about declaring war on the United States.

At about the same time, the Environmental Defense Fund (EDF) had begun to question its own approach to cleaning up pollution, summed up in its unofficial motto: "Sue the bastards." During the early years of command-and-control environmental regulation, EDF had also noticed something fundamental about human nature, which is that people hate being told what to do. So a few iconoclasts in the group had started to flirt with marketplace solutions: give people a chance to turn a profit by being smarter than the next person, they reasoned, and they would achieve things that no command-and-control bureaucrat would ever suggest.

The theory had been brewing for decades, beginning with early 20th-century British economist Arthur Cecil Pigou. He argued that transactions can have effects that don't show up in the price of a product. A careless manufacturer spewing noxious chemicals into the air, for instance, did not have to pay when the paint peeled off houses downwind—and neither did the consumer of the resulting product. Pigou proposed making the manufacturer and customer foot the bill for these unacknowledged costs—"internalizing the externalities," in the cryptic language of the dismal science. But nobody much liked Pigou's means of doing it, by having regulators impose taxes and fees. In 1968, while studying pollution control in the Great Lakes, University of Toronto economist John Dales hit on a way for the costs to be paid with minimal government intervention, by using tradable permits or allowances.

The basic premise of cap-and-trade is that government doesn't tell polluters how to clean up their act. Instead, it simply imposes a cap on emissions. Each company starts the year with a certain number of tons allowed—a so-called right to pollute. The company decides how to use its allowance; it might restrict output, or switch to a cleaner fuel, or buy a scrubber to cut emissions. If it doesn't use up its allowance, it might then sell what it no longer needs. Then again, it might have to buy extra allowances on the open market. Each year, the cap ratchets down, and the shrinking pool of allowances gets costlier. As in a game of musical chairs, polluters must scramble to match allowances to emissions.

Getting all this to work in the real world required a leap of faith. The opportunity came with the 1988 election of George H.W. Bush. EDF president Fred Krupp phoned Bush's new White House counsel—Boyden Gray—and suggested that the best way for Bush to make good on his pledge to become the "environmental president" was to fix the acid rain problem, and the best way to do that was by using the new tool of emissions trading. Gray liked the marketplace approach, and even before the Reagan administration expired, he put EDF staffers to work drafting legislation to make it happen. The immediate aim was to break the impasse over acid rain. But global warming had also registered as front-page news for the first time that sweltering summer of 1988; according to Krupp, EDF and the Bush White House both felt from the start that emissions trading would ultimately be the best way to address this much larger challenge.

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Presence-of-Mind-Blue-Sky-Thinking.html#ixzz0sYCf4sAo


Okay so all this Chicago Exchange, Al Gore, Goldman Sachs talk aside.  Is this or is this not a good economic model to reduce pollution?  It has worked since 1990 to control power plant pollutants that cause acid rain.  As far as I'm aware they are not out of business because of this. 
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kcballer

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 11:25:24 AM »
Once upon a time, "cap-and-trade" wasn't an object of conservative Republican opprobrium (e.g., as a "big government cap-and-tax scheme that will destroy our economy and end our way of life as we know it"). Actually, once up on a time, "cap-and-trade" was...wait for it...a conservative Republican idea! That's right, let's head to the "way back machine" and briefly review the Political History of Cap and Trade.

    John B. Henry was hiking in Maine's Acadia National Park one August in the 1980s when he first heard his friend C. Boyden Gray talk about cleaning up the environment by letting people buy and sell the right to pollute. Gray, a tall, lanky heir to a tobacco fortune, was then working as a lawyer in the Reagan White House, where environmental ideas were only slightly more popular than godless Communism. "I thought he was smoking dope," recalls Henry, a Washington, D.C. entrepreneur. But if the system Gray had in mind now looks like a politically acceptable way to slow climate change-an approach being hotly debated in Congress-you could say that it got its start on the global stage on that hike up Acadia's Cadillac Mountain.

    People now call that system "cap-and-trade." But back then the term of art was "emissions trading," though some people called it "morally bankrupt" or even "a license to kill." For a strange alliance of free-market Republicans and renegade environmentalists, it represented a novel approach to cleaning up the world-by working with human nature instead of against it.

    Despite powerful resistance, these allies got the system adopted as national law in 1990, to control the power-plant pollutants that cause acid rain. With the help of federal bureaucrats willing to violate the cardinal rule of bureaucracy-by surrendering regulatory power to the marketplace-emissions trading would become one of the most spectacular success stories in the history of the green movement...

In the end, the conservative Republican-inspired "cap-and-trade" system for acid-rain-causing sulfur dioxide was put into place by Republican President George HW Bush, who "not only accepted the cap, he overruled his advisers' recommendation of an eight million-ton cut in annual acid rain emissions in favor of the ten million-ton cut advocated by environmentalists." And it worked incredibly well, "cost[ing] utilities just $3 billion annually, not $25 billion... [and] by cutting acid rain in half, it also generates an estimated $122 billion a year in benefits from avoided death and illness, healthier lakes and forests, and improved visibility on the Eastern Seaboard."

In short, good things happened when we harnessed the tremendous power of the market to solve environmental problems. Today, the biggest and most pressing of those problems - identified, once again, by a massive amount of scientific research and evidence over several decades - is not acid rain, but global warming. And the proposed solution, once again, is the conservative, market-based "cap-and-trade" system. Strangely, however, it's conservative, market-based Republicans who have morphed into the loudest and most vociferous opponents of "cap-and-trade," while Democrats have become its biggest proponents.

Even stranger, as Climate Progress points out, many Republicans are now opposing - even "demagoguing" - against an idea they once supported! A short list includes: Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), who once said she supported cap-and-trade because she believed "it offers the opportunity to reduce carbon, at the least cost to society;" Sen. Scott Brown (R-MA), who once bragged that voting for "cap-and-trade" in Massachusetts was an "important step ... towards improving our environment;" Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who once asserted that cap-and-trade "will send a signal that will be heard and welcomed all across the American economy;" and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), who used to believe that we should "set emission standards and let the best technology win." Actually, as Steve Benen at Washington Monthly points out, the McCain-Palin official website in 2008 promised that a McCain administration would "establish...a cap-and-trade system that would reduce greenhouse gas emissions."

My, how times have changed in less than 2 years.

The point of all this is simple. Cap-and-trade is not some dastardly scheme to destroy the U.S. economy. Cap-and-trade is not radical, either. In fact, cap-and-trade is a tried, true, tested and proven, market-based approach to reducing greenhouse gas emissions at the lowest possible cost. It worked with acid rain, far faster and cheaper than anyone predicted. Why would it be any different with carbon dioxide than sulfur dioxide? And why would Republicans oppose their own idea, after watching it produce one of the biggest environmental victories in U.S. history, on the gravest environmental threat facing our country and our planet? Even more, why would Republicans oppose an idea that -- even if you put aside the issue of global warming -- is still imperative - for urgent economic (e.g., sending $400 billion overseas every year to pay for imported oil) and national security (sending that $400 billion to a lot of countries that aren't our friends, are building nuclear weapons programs, etc.) reasons?

It's hard to think of any good reasons, how about some bad ones? Because, in the end, that's about all the cap-and-trade naysayers have left.

http://mydd.com/users/lowell-feld-nrdc-action-fund/posts/remember-cap-and-trade-was-originally-a-free-market-conservative-idea
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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 11:30:29 AM »
A study done at Harvard said the cap and trade bill would raise gas prices to 7 dollars a gallon and tripple utility costs.Id say for those reasons alone it should be scrapped.

The first time I ever heard of it was when John McCain and I think Lieberman tried to put a bill together.So it very well may have been a republican that came up with it.However,if you look at the civil rights act it was almost 100% democrats that tried to kill it,so people seem to change their minds on things as years go on.

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 11:43:58 AM »
A study done at Harvard said the cap and trade bill would raise gas prices to 7 dollars a gallon and tripple utility costs.Id say for those reasons alone it should be scrapped.

The first time I ever heard of it was when John McCain and I think Lieberman tried to put a bill together.So it very well may have been a republican that came up with it.However,if you look at the civil rights act it was almost 100% democrats that tried to kill it,so people seem to change their minds on things as years go on.

It would raise those energy costs associated with high emission energy Billy, that's very true.  But by raising the cost it forces consumers to demand a cleaner energy system from companies and it finally forces companies (and consumers) to pay a 'true' price for their high emission fuel.  Right now we don't pay enough of a clean tax for what we put out, air pollution not only causes thousands upon thousands of deaths every year, it also leads to a lower quality of life through respiratory illness and issues arising from high air pollution.  That leads to higher medical costs which are passed onto all of us.  So in the end Billy we pay for these things anyway just in an indirect way.  This was we direct the cost and force the issue on clean tech. 
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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2010, 11:51:01 AM »
It would raise those energy costs associated with high emission energy Billy, that's very true.  But by raising the cost it forces consumers to demand a cleaner energy system from companies and it finally forces companies (and consumers) to pay a 'true' price for their high emission fuel.  Right now we don't pay enough of a clean tax for what we put out, air pollution not only causes thousands upon thousands of deaths every year, it also leads to a lower quality of life through respiratory illness and issues arising from high air pollution.  That leads to higher medical costs which are passed onto all of us.  So in the end Billy we pay for these things anyway just in an indirect way.  This was we direct the cost and force the issue on clean tech. 

You may be right BUT and its a HUGE BUT!!Who would be hurt by 7 dollar a gallon gas?The rich?Me?Nope,its the poor.If you go from paying 40 dollars a week in gas to get to work to paying 80 dollars a week,plus your electric bill is 300 dollars a month more expensive what do you do with the poor?They can no longer afford to drive to work?Have to decide if they can eat or keep their homes warm.

Once again,in theory your right.It would probably force comanies to come up with a cleaner energy,but in the meantime,how many are driven from their homes,out of work because they cant afford gas and onto welfare or some other government programThis is the problem with libs,they really dont give a flying fuck about people,they care about trees.

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2010, 11:54:25 AM »
You may be right BUT and its a HUGE BUT!!Who would be hurt by 7 dollar a gallon gas?The rich?Me?Nope,its the poor.If you go from paying 40 dollars a week in gas to get to work to paying 80 dollars a week,plus your electric bill is 300 dollars a month more expensive what do you do with the poor?They can no longer afford to drive to work?Have to decide if they can eat or keep their homes warm.

Once again,in theory your right.It would probably force comanies to come up with a cleaner energy,but in the meantime,how many are driven from their homes,out of work because they cant afford gas and onto welfare or some other government programThis is the problem with libs,they really dont give a flying fuck about people,they care about trees.

Those are great points Billy.  Perhaps a rebate or 'credit' of some kind to lower income families would/could lessen the blow until we have prices back to more consumer friendly prices. 
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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2010, 11:57:55 AM »
mccain and lieberman and palin and others were behind it just 18 months ago. 

It's only the recent "man doesn't have anything to do with the weather" political sentiment that is causing all the conseravtives to flipflop.

I've said all along, I think it's a load of crap.  Man shouldn't polute because he shouldn't pollute, period.  Maybe companies need a "look, you're brekaing the earth" lesson, just like idiots needed a WMD reason for Iraqi oil or 911 reason for afghanistan, etc.  you know, a rallying cry that made them 'right'.   And maybe it's a way to tax us more, sure.


Anyway, anyone who cries about obama and his cap/trade should ask themselves why they were so quiet when their conservative favorites were backing the bill ;)

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2010, 12:02:27 PM »
mccain and lieberman and palin and others were behind it just 18 months ago. 

It's only the recent "man doesn't have anything to do with the weather" political sentiment that is causing all the conseravtives to flipflop.

I've said all along, I think it's a load of crap.  Man shouldn't polute because he shouldn't pollute, period.  Maybe companies need a "look, you're brekaing the earth" lesson, just like idiots needed a WMD reason for Iraqi oil or 911 reason for afghanistan, etc.  you know, a rallying cry that made them 'right'.   And maybe it's a way to tax us more, sure.


Anyway, anyone who cries about obama and his cap/trade should ask themselves why they were so quiet when their conservative favorites were backing the bill ;)


Two wrongs make a right.  ::)

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2010, 12:09:19 PM »
mccain and lieberman and palin and others were behind it just 18 months ago. 

It's only the recent "man doesn't have anything to do with the weather" political sentiment that is causing all the conseravtives to flipflop.

I've said all along, I think it's a load of crap.  Man shouldn't polute because he shouldn't pollute, period.  Maybe companies need a "look, you're brekaing the earth" lesson, just like idiots needed a WMD reason for Iraqi oil or 911 reason for afghanistan, etc.  you know, a rallying cry that made them 'right'.   And maybe it's a way to tax us more, sure.


Anyway, anyone who cries about obama and his cap/trade should ask themselves why they were so quiet when their conservative favorites were backing the bill ;)


Sorry,you cant say in one post Robert Byrd a klansman can change then act like its news when someone changes a position on cap and trade.

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2010, 12:13:56 PM »
hey, byrd might have been a stone racist til the day he died, i wouldn't doubt it.  I dont care to debate the dead all that much, to be honest.


Yes, Byrd changed his views, maybe to keep his job.

Palin and mccain were all about this bill 18 months ago -TIL THE DEMS DRAFTED THEIR OWN VERSION.



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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2010, 12:18:51 PM »
hey, byrd might have been a stone racist til the day he died, i wouldn't doubt it.  I dont care to debate the dead all that much, to be honest.


Yes, Byrd changed his views, maybe to keep his job.

Palin and mccain were all about this bill 18 months ago -TIL THE DEMS DRAFTED THEIR OWN VERSION.




Palin was for a system that gave tax incentives to companies that reduced their pollutiuon.She was never and has never been for punnishing companies to the point they leave the country with idiotic taxes.Palin has been against the Waxman bill since it came out.

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Re: Cap and Trade was a Republican Idea???
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2010, 01:18:04 PM »
I don't carry if Jesus Christ came up with Cap & Trade, its disgusting treasonous heist of money to go to Goldman Sachs, BP, etc. 

No thanks.