Author Topic: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?  (Read 6386 times)

Montague

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 05:03:38 PM »
How big of a problem is this?  Specifically, how rampant is the spread of HIV from an IV drug user to an "innocent" person?  


Sexual intercourse with an infected person.

Contaminated tattooing/piercing instruments.

Exposure to infected blood, transfusions of infected blood, blood products, or organ transplantation.

Although rare, HIV can be passed from a pregnant woman to her baby during pregnancy, labor, and delivery. It’s only slightly easier for mothers to transmit HIV to their babies through breast-feeding.

Some healthcare workers have become infected after being stuck with needles containing HIV-infected blood or, less frequently, when infected blood comes in contact with a worker's open cut or is splashed into a worker's eyes or inside their nose.

The last three occurrences are quite rare - some less than 1%.
Is it enough to merit the practice in question?
That’s each person’s opinion.

My take:
People will use drugs no matter what.
Legalities don’t stop them, and supplying needles won’t have any kind of effect on drug use either way.

It’s about as effective as imposing restrictions on the sale of cigarette lighters to stop people from smoking.

You can't prevent the inevitable.
But, providing clean needles may certainly reduce the temptation of users to reuse/share infected needles.

If something as simple and cost effective as supplying sterilized needles can reduce the percentage of infected population, I’m all for it - because it may spare me should I one day encounter that one person who can infect me.


Dos Equis

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 06:06:32 PM »

Sexual intercourse with an infected person.

Contaminated tattooing/piercing instruments.

Exposure to infected blood, transfusions of infected blood, blood products, or organ transplantation.

Although rare, HIV can be passed from a pregnant woman to her baby during pregnancy, labor, and delivery. It’s only slightly easier for mothers to transmit HIV to their babies through breast-feeding.

Some healthcare workers have become infected after being stuck with needles containing HIV-infected blood or, less frequently, when infected blood comes in contact with a worker's open cut or is splashed into a worker's eyes or inside their nose.

The last three occurrences are quite rare - some less than 1%.
Is it enough to merit the practice in question?
That’s each person’s opinion.

My take:
People will use drugs no matter what.
Legalities don’t stop them, and supplying needles won’t have any kind of effect on drug use either way.

It’s about as effective as imposing restrictions on the sale of cigarette lighters to stop people from smoking.

You can't prevent the inevitable.
But, providing clean needles may certainly reduce the temptation of users to reuse/share infected needles.

If something as simple and cost effective as supplying sterilized needles can reduce the percentage of infected population, I’m all for it - because it may spare me should I one day encounter that one person who can infect me.



Montague I doubt you're at risk.  Check out the following excerpts from a book I read a few years ago.  It was published in 1995, so it's a little dated, but Brown posits that in the U.S. HIV is primarily spread through IV drug use and those who come into contact with people involved with IV drug users.  Here are some excerpts from "Black Lies, White Lies" (kinda long):

"It has become abundantly clear, in spite of a great campaign of disinformation and reprehensible scare tactics, that 'AIDS' does not attack the general population.  After fifteen years, it remains almost exclusively confined to IV-drug users (about 32 percent of the cases) and a subset of male homosexuals which accounted for about 60 percent of the total 140, 428 AIDS cases in the United States in 1991.  The total number of homosexuals who have had 'AIDS' since it was discovered in 1981 was 217,012 as of December 1993."

"About 95 percent of those contract 'AIDS' have a history of drug use--according to Dr. Robert E. Willner in his book Deadly Deception.  Willner quotes studies that claim it takes from '500 to 1,000 unprotected sexual encounters to transmit' HIV . . . ."

"The odds of a healthy non-drug-using heterosexual getting 'AIDS' are the same as for getting hit by lightening.  And from a population of 255 million Americans, only 140, 428 were living with 'AIDS' as of 1994.
John Lauritsen and Hank Wilson, in their book Death Rush, accuse the CDC of fraud:  'The effect of the CDC's statistical trickery is to underreport IV-drug users as an AIDS group by at least 50 percent; the effect is to construe AIDS as a venereal disease, rather than a drug-induced condition."

One of the world's leading authorities on viruses and retroviruses, Dr. Peter Duesberg, "blames the rise of 'AIDS on the 'massive escalation in the consumption of recreational drugs' in the 1960s and 1970s.  In a ten-year period alone, Americans increased their use of cocaine by 200 percent, while the use of amphetamines and poppers skyrocketed among homosexuals.  Drug abuse, Duesberg says, resulted in the reemergence of old diseases such as tuberculosis--one of the 'AIDS' diseases--in the 1980s and 1990s."

"Duesberg's theory of how 'AIDS' spreads is simple to follow.  He holds that 'AIDS' begins in those who are biologically most susceptible:  people whose lifestyles make them perfect hosts for a 'benign' retrovirus (HIV).  He says it that HIV hardly ever becomes active even in 'AIDS.'  These 'thirdworldized' hosts, all of whom have ravaged their body in some way, include heterosexual drug addicts; and those drug-abusing homosexuals whose irresponsible 'bathhouse' sex behavior exposes them to lethal microbes and the spread of infections."

. . .

More:

"Michael Callen, one of the founders of the People with AIDS Coalition, lived twelve years with 'AIDS.'  Just before his death, he offered a compelling confession in HEAL, a publication for alternative health therapies, that lends credence to Duesberg's 'DAIDS' theory [Drug Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome]:

By the age of 27, I estimate I had 3,000 different sex partners.  I'd also had:  hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis non-A, non-B; herpes simplex types 1 and 2; shigella; entamoeba histolytica; Giardia; syphilis; gonorrhea; nonspecific urethritis; chlamydia; venereal warts; CMV; EBV reactivations; and finally cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.  The question for me wasn't why I was sick with AIDS but rather how I had been able to remain standing on two feet for so long.  If you blanked out my name and handed my medical chart, prior to AIDS, to a doctor, she/he might reasonable have guessed that it was the chart of a 65-year-old equatorial African living in squalor.

"Callen very likely put his finger on what is the probable link between the 'AIDS' outbreak among high-risk groups in the West and the malnourished heterosexual population in Africa:  a Third World health status.  This sort of ravaged immune system first developed in the West among a bathhouse culture of male bisexuals and homosexuals, as well as heterosexual injection-drug users and homosexual long-term recreational drug abusers.  These subcultures were extremely vulnerable because of debilitated bodies and a Third World hygiene status."

"`Something other than homosexuality' causes 'AIDS,' says Duesberg.  'Your all-American homosexual neighbor will never get 'AIDS.'  It's only the ones who have hundreds, or thousands, of sexual contacts a year.  And how is that achieved?  Almost exclusively by chemicals.
"Drug abuse is rampant among homosexuals who practice promiscuous sex.  For multiple orgasms and as an anal relaxant, this bathhouse subculture routinely uses 'poppers' (amyl nitrite inhalants), and their 'recreational' regime consists of PCP, amphetamines, angel dust, cocaine, heroin, uppers and downers, Valium, and alcohol,' Duesberg explains."

"In my opinion, then, the illness we call 'AIDS' in the United States is not by any means a 'homosexual disease.'  I believe it is precipitated by a chemical injury, but it is also triggered by a variety of microorganisms as cofactors that destroys the body's immune system.  The process is a deadly synergistic combustion.  High-risk 'AIDS' behavior in the West is primarily drug abuse, receptive anal intercourse, poor hygiene, malnutrition, and unprotected sex--especially if there is a history of sexually transmitted diseases." 

Montague

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 06:15:01 PM »
Montague I doubt you're at risk.


Everyone is, technically, at risk.
I agree it's probably a small one.

I hope my chances are as miniscule as your information suggests.
 ;)


drkaje

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 06:15:30 PM »
At some point Aids will be prevented with gene therapy but that's not the point.

Why push Gardisil on young girls when condoms are safer than the vaccine, from a purely health perspective?

Dos Equis

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2010, 06:24:58 PM »

Everyone is, technically, at risk.
I agree it's probably a small one.

I hope my chances are as miniscule as your information suggests.
 ;)



True, risk is rarely zero, but anytime you get into the "more likely to be struck by lightening" category, you're probably o.k.   :)

tonymctones

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 08:09:59 PM »
it seems like the biggest argument for this is saving money, why not simply stop giving these ppl assistance? that would accomplish the same thing actually it would save you more as giving needles wont eliminate the problem...

and doc nobody has brought up religion so its ignorant for you to ASSume that ppl are against this b/c of religion...like the ppl who cant fathom a person being against abortion for reasons outside of religion  ::)

drkaje

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2010, 06:19:00 PM »
it seems like the biggest argument for this is saving money, why not simply stop giving these ppl assistance? that would accomplish the same thing actually it would save you more as giving needles wont eliminate the problem...

and doc nobody has brought up religion so its ignorant for you to ASSume that ppl are against this b/c of religion...like the ppl who cant fathom a person being against abortion for reasons outside of religion  ::)

You can't say "All life is precious" in one breath then "Let's do nothing to stop the spread of disease" in the next and expect to be taken seriously.  :)

tonymctones

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2010, 07:52:49 PM »
You can't say "All life is precious" in one breath then "Let's do nothing to stop the spread of disease" in the next and expect to be taken seriously.  :)
LOL way to misunderstand the reasonings behind the arguments... ;)

there is a thing though called PERSONAL RESPONSIFREAKINGBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the child has done nothing and should not be punished for others idiocy...

the drug addict with aids has done something to put themselves in that predicament and should face the consequences....

drkaje

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2010, 04:15:37 AM »
LOL way to misunderstand the reasonings behind the arguments... ;)

there is a thing though called PERSONAL RESPONSIFREAKINGBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the child has done nothing and should not be punished for others idiocy...

the drug addict with aids has done something to put themselves in that predicament and should face the consequences....

"Personal responsibility" is a cop out used by conservatives because "I'm not willing to support activities inconsistent with my values" would be political suicide. It's equivalent to liberal mantra "What about the children?!" when they want more money.

Fatasses, alcoholics, smokers, older new parents, druggies, steroid users, people who won't take their meds, etc.. ultimately pass financial consequences for their actions/inactions off to other taxpayers/policyholders. I don't see any republicans yelling "You're diabetic with high blood pressure from eating too much. Pay your own healthcare costs or die from kidney failure!". :)

Saying "personal responsibility" and "what about the children?" make people feel justified but we all know deep down inside it's bullchit 99.999% of the time. :)

Before someone who can't get the bigger concept asks... No, I'm not anti-personal responsibility, LOL! I'm against using buzzwords, in a hypocritical manner, to abort honest dialogue and our rights/wrongs being defined by whatever way the political pendulum swings.

tonymctones

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2010, 07:00:22 AM »
"Personal responsibility" is a cop out used by conservatives because "I'm not willing to support activities inconsistent with my values" would be political suicide. It's equivalent to liberal mantra "What about the children?!" when they want more money.

Fatasses, alcoholics, smokers, older new parents, druggies, steroid users, people who won't take their meds, etc.. ultimately pass financial consequences for their actions/inactions off to other taxpayers/policyholders. I don't see any republicans yelling "You're diabetic with high blood pressure from eating too much. Pay your own healthcare costs or die from kidney failure!". :)

Saying "personal responsibility" and "what about the children?" make people feel justified but we all know deep down inside it's bullchit 99.999% of the time. :)

Before someone who can't get the bigger concept asks... No, I'm not anti-personal responsibility, LOL! I'm against using buzzwords, in a hypocritical manner, to abort honest dialogue and our rights/wrongs being defined by whatever way the political pendulum swings.
first of all LOL if you dont see the difference between the legal actions such as over eating and drinking and the ILLEGAL actions of shooting drugs...

second of all I those ppl should take personal responsibility for their actions too, you ASSume to much doc personal responsibility should be taken across the board...

drkaje

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2010, 07:12:21 AM »
first of all LOL if you dont see the difference between the legal actions such as over eating and drinking and the ILLEGAL actions of shooting drugs...

second of all I those ppl should take personal responsibility for their actions too, you ASSume to much doc personal responsibility should be taken across the board...

Legality is defined by politics.

tonymctones

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2010, 07:23:41 AM »
Legality is defined by politics.
agreed dont forget though doc politics is not reality andthat doesnt change the fact that one is illegal and one isnt...and seeing as im consistant in my application of personal responsibility you ASSumed wrongly...

if however there is assistance to be given it should go to the ppl who didnt get in their situation by illegal actions...


kcballer

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2010, 09:06:53 AM »
"Personal responsibility" is a cop out used by conservatives because "I'm not willing to support activities inconsistent with my values" would be political suicide. It's equivalent to liberal mantra "What about the children?!" when they want more money.

Fatasses, alcoholics, smokers, older new parents, druggies, steroid users, people who won't take their meds, etc.. ultimately pass financial consequences for their actions/inactions off to other taxpayers/policyholders. I don't see any republicans yelling "You're diabetic with high blood pressure from eating too much. Pay your own healthcare costs or die from kidney failure!". :)

Saying "personal responsibility" and "what about the children?" make people feel justified but we all know deep down inside it's bullchit 99.999% of the time. :)

Before someone who can't get the bigger concept asks... No, I'm not anti-personal responsibility, LOL! I'm against using buzzwords, in a hypocritical manner, to abort honest dialogue and our rights/wrongs being defined by whatever way the political pendulum swings.

pwnage right there. 

Save a baby, let it die when it's old enough to not feel bad for it  ::)
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kcballer

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2010, 09:16:51 AM »
Montague I doubt you're at risk.  Check out the following excerpts from a book I read a few years ago.  It was published in 1995, so it's a little dated, but Brown posits that in the U.S. HIV is primarily spread through IV drug use and those who come into contact with people involved with IV drug users.  Here are some excerpts from "Black Lies, White Lies" (kinda long):

"It has become abundantly clear, in spite of a great campaign of disinformation and reprehensible scare tactics, that 'AIDS' does not attack the general population.  After fifteen years, it remains almost exclusively confined to IV-drug users (about 32 percent of the cases) and a subset of male homosexuals which accounted for about 60 percent of the total 140, 428 AIDS cases in the United States in 1991.  The total number of homosexuals who have had 'AIDS' since it was discovered in 1981 was 217,012 as of December 1993."

"About 95 percent of those contract 'AIDS' have a history of drug use--according to Dr. Robert E. Willner in his book Deadly Deception.  Willner quotes studies that claim it takes from '500 to 1,000 unprotected sexual encounters to transmit' HIV . . . ."

"The odds of a healthy non-drug-using heterosexual getting 'AIDS' are the same as for getting hit by lightening.  And from a population of 255 million Americans, only 140, 428 were living with 'AIDS' as of 1994.
John Lauritsen and Hank Wilson, in their book Death Rush, accuse the CDC of fraud:  'The effect of the CDC's statistical trickery is to underreport IV-drug users as an AIDS group by at least 50 percent; the effect is to construe AIDS as a venereal disease, rather than a drug-induced condition."

One of the world's leading authorities on viruses and retroviruses, Dr. Peter Duesberg, "blames the rise of 'AIDS on the 'massive escalation in the consumption of recreational drugs' in the 1960s and 1970s.  In a ten-year period alone, Americans increased their use of cocaine by 200 percent, while the use of amphetamines and poppers skyrocketed among homosexuals.  Drug abuse, Duesberg says, resulted in the reemergence of old diseases such as tuberculosis--one of the 'AIDS' diseases--in the 1980s and 1990s."

"Duesberg's theory of how 'AIDS' spreads is simple to follow.  He holds that 'AIDS' begins in those who are biologically most susceptible:  people whose lifestyles make them perfect hosts for a 'benign' retrovirus (HIV).  He says it that HIV hardly ever becomes active even in 'AIDS.'  These 'thirdworldized' hosts, all of whom have ravaged their body in some way, include heterosexual drug addicts; and those drug-abusing homosexuals whose irresponsible 'bathhouse' sex behavior exposes them to lethal microbes and the spread of infections."

. . .

More:

"Michael Callen, one of the founders of the People with AIDS Coalition, lived twelve years with 'AIDS.'  Just before his death, he offered a compelling confession in HEAL, a publication for alternative health therapies, that lends credence to Duesberg's 'DAIDS' theory [Drug Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome]:

By the age of 27, I estimate I had 3,000 different sex partners.  I'd also had:  hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis non-A, non-B; herpes simplex types 1 and 2; shigella; entamoeba histolytica; Giardia; syphilis; gonorrhea; nonspecific urethritis; chlamydia; venereal warts; CMV; EBV reactivations; and finally cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.  The question for me wasn't why I was sick with AIDS but rather how I had been able to remain standing on two feet for so long.  If you blanked out my name and handed my medical chart, prior to AIDS, to a doctor, she/he might reasonable have guessed that it was the chart of a 65-year-old equatorial African living in squalor.

"Callen very likely put his finger on what is the probable link between the 'AIDS' outbreak among high-risk groups in the West and the malnourished heterosexual population in Africa:  a Third World health status.  This sort of ravaged immune system first developed in the West among a bathhouse culture of male bisexuals and homosexuals, as well as heterosexual injection-drug users and homosexual long-term recreational drug abusers.  These subcultures were extremely vulnerable because of debilitated bodies and a Third World hygiene status."

"`Something other than homosexuality' causes 'AIDS,' says Duesberg.  'Your all-American homosexual neighbor will never get 'AIDS.'  It's only the ones who have hundreds, or thousands, of sexual contacts a year.  And how is that achieved?  Almost exclusively by chemicals.
"Drug abuse is rampant among homosexuals who practice promiscuous sex.  For multiple orgasms and as an anal relaxant, this bathhouse subculture routinely uses 'poppers' (amyl nitrite inhalants), and their 'recreational' regime consists of PCP, amphetamines, angel dust, cocaine, heroin, uppers and downers, Valium, and alcohol,' Duesberg explains."

"In my opinion, then, the illness we call 'AIDS' in the United States is not by any means a 'homosexual disease.'  I believe it is precipitated by a chemical injury, but it is also triggered by a variety of microorganisms as cofactors that destroys the body's immune system.  The process is a deadly synergistic combustion.  High-risk 'AIDS' behavior in the West is primarily drug abuse, receptive anal intercourse, poor hygiene, malnutrition, and unprotected sex--especially if there is a history of sexually transmitted diseases." 


You are right in that AIDS and HIV are isolated to those whose actions put them most as risk.  The mantra of 'everyone could be infected' is not true.  If you wear protection and use lube, screen your sexual partners, don't share needles and make better decisions your risk will be close to nil. 

However that doesn't mean you shouldn't help a minority of people who are at risk.  It's not just those who sleep with men and drug injectors who are at risk, 32% of all new HIV infections come from heterosexual contact.  Is this going to turn into an epidemic for all Americans?  No.  But it will continue to ravage through lower educated and ill informed persons who are most at risk. 

We spend billions each year on HIV and AIDS.  Billions.  Millions of that goes to 'abstinence' which doesn't work, millions goes to poverty initiatives and a small % goes to prevention.  Why?  Because it's not as popular to prevent HIV as it is to give money to poor people with the disease.  One is a charitable good will thing, the other is supposedly support for an illicit act.  So if we give money to people once they have the virus why not give a larger % of money and take steps to prevent the virus, thus saving billions long term and saving millions of lives in the process? 
Abandon every hope...

Dos Equis

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2010, 12:33:14 PM »
first of all LOL if you dont see the difference between the legal actions such as over eating and drinking and the ILLEGAL actions of shooting drugs...


Agree.  Not a good comparison.

Dos Equis

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2010, 12:37:00 PM »
Is this going to turn into an epidemic for all Americans?  No.  But it will continue to ravage through lower educated and ill informed persons who are most at risk. 


Quote
So the bad in your scenario outweighs an HIV epidemic fueling higher costs as tax payers foot the bill for anti retrovirals for hundreds of thousands of new infections? 

So which is it? 

drkaje

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2010, 12:45:26 PM »
Agree.  Not a good comparison.

Right and wrong are not determined by what is legal, for goodness' sake!

Dos Equis

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2010, 12:51:00 PM »
Right and wrong are not determined by what is legal, for goodness' sake!

That's an oversimplification.  Of course right and wrong can be "determined by what is legal."  The law tells us (society) that you have to wear a seat belt, drive a certain mph, pay your taxes, etc. 

The law also says buying and using things like heroin is illegal.  Smoking cigarettes and eating too much are not illegal.  Your comparison makes no sense. 

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2010, 12:53:15 PM »
I think that needle exchanges should are a good thing but far-left tards like KC throwing the liberal spin with the claims that not having them will lead to an AIDS epidemic is idiotic.

Needle exchanges are simplistic, for the most part cheap and they help to keep these idiot junkies somewhat healthy and out of the ER.

kcballer

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2010, 12:56:31 PM »


So which is it? 

Uh hundreds and thousands of new infections is still a fraction of the population but it's still hundreds and thousands.  Unless you think the population of America is under 100 million.   
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kcballer

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2010, 12:58:51 PM »
I think that needle exchanges should are a good thing but far-left tards like KC throwing the liberal spin with the claims that not having them will lead to an AIDS epidemic is idiotic.

Needle exchanges are simplistic, for the most part cheap and they help to keep these idiot junkies somewhat healthy and out of the ER.

Uh it is an epidemic in the at risk communities.  I've already said when taken as a % of the whole population it's not going to effect the general population to a large extent.  But hey please take words i didn't say and make them up.  Oh BF you seriously need a clue.   ::)  You're so clueless it's like you're 12 years old.
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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2010, 01:00:40 PM »
Uh it is an epidemic in the at risk communities.  I've already said when taken as a % of the whole population it's not going to effect the general population to a large extent.  But hey please take words i didn't say and make them up.  Oh BF you seriously need a clue.   ::)  You're so clueless it's like you're 12 years old.

It's not an epidemic (it's a problem and the risk is there but hardly an epidemic) in at-risk communities and your fear-mongering isn't helping the argument in the least.

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2010, 01:02:10 PM »
Uh it is an epidemic in the at risk communities.  I've already said when taken as a % of the whole population it's not going to effect the general population to a large extent.  But hey please take words i didn't say and make them up.  Oh BF you seriously need a clue.   ::)  You're so clueless it's like you're 12 years old.

They would not be as "at risk" if they simply acted responsibibly and not banged each other like rabid dogs without condoms and shared needles like kids trade baseball cards.  


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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2010, 01:02:41 PM »
Uh hundreds and thousands of new infections is still a fraction of the population but it's still hundreds and thousands.  Unless you think the population of America is under 100 million.   

Is it an epidemic or not?  

drkaje

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Re: Clean Needles - Should we provide them?
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2010, 01:04:38 PM »
That's an oversimplification.  Of course right and wrong can be "determined by what is legal."  The law tells us (society) that you have to wear a seat belt, drive a certain mph, pay your taxes, etc. 

The law also says buying and using things like heroin is illegal.  Smoking cigarettes and eating too much are not illegal.  Your comparison makes no sense. 


All are substances which can be abused by humans. Heroin's illegality doesn't change that simple fact or make abusing either more/less wrong.

So if heroin were legal you'd have no problems paying for needles?!