Author Topic: Public Prayer.. WWJD?  (Read 2124 times)

Agnostic007

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Public Prayer.. WWJD?
« on: July 22, 2010, 07:10:49 AM »
Interesting article..

Where Would Jesus Pray?
by Howard Thompson, reprinted from the Texas Atheist. Used by permission.

Greetings to Christians,

"Jesus prayed in public," the angry Santa Fe, Texas football fan told me. I was surprised, for I could not recall any gospel verses where Jesus prayed in public. It made me realize I had forgotten about the importance of Jesus in public prayer controversies. Jesus is Christianity's ultimate moral example. Before they act, Christians are supposed to ask themselves "What Would Jesus Do?" Christians should do whatever Jesus would do. Christians should not do what Jesus would not do.

Many Christians want government to sponsor public prayers, especially in schools. An example is the Texas controversy over football game prayers. Christians concerned about public prayers should be asking "Where Would Jesus Pray?"

Christians regard the four gospels as their best source of information about Jesus. Christians who want to live as Jesus lived use the gospels as their guide. So, wherever gospel verses describe Jesus as praying is where Christians should pray. If gospel verses describe Jesus teaching against praying somewhere, or Jesus not praying there, then Christians should not pray there.

RESULTS OF "WHERE JESUS WOULD PRAY?" RESEARCH

I examined gospel verses to discover "Where Would Jesus Pray?" All gospel verses that talked about prayer were examined. The detailed results are in a separate paper following this one.

Some verses described Jesus praying. Some described Jesus' teachings on prayer. Other verses had non-applicable usages of the word "pray," or its variations. These other verses tell Christians nothing about what Jesus taught on prayer or how hr prayed. Only the verses where Jesus prayed or taught about praying were analyzed.

There were eighteen gospel verses that described Jesus praying or probably praying. Depending on the information of the verse and its surrounding context, each verse was assignable to one of seven categories. The counts for each kind of prayer by Jesus were:

COUNT KIND OF PRAYER

0 Public/voluntary. Jesus chose to pray in a public setting.
1 Public/involuntary. Jesus had no choice but to pray in public if he wished to pray.
12 Alone. Jesus separated himself from others to pray alone.
1 Healing prayer. Jesus spoke, or may have spoken, a healing prayer.
1 At religious ritual. Jesus prayed as part of a religious ritual.
1 With disciples. Jesus prayed with, or in the presence of, his disciples.
2 Indeterminate. There was not enough information to make a determination

WHAT DID JESUS TEACH ABOUT WHERE TO PRAY?

Most significant are Jesus' teachings in Matthew 6:5-6. This teaching contains:

* A statement against public prayer. When Jesus says it is hypocrisy to "pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets," we can be sure that "corners of the streets" are in public.

* A command to pray in private. When Jesus says, "when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door ...," we can be sure that Jesus is saying that prayers are private talking to god and not to be heard by others.

* A description of prayer as "secret." When Jesus says, "pray to thy father which is in secret," we can be sure that Jesus is emphasizing the private, non-public nature of prayer.

"WHERE WOULD JESUS PRAY?"

The count of gospel verses that describe Jesus praying answer the question "Where Would Jesus Pray?" Unless Jesus had no choice but to pray in public or was praying in a special sense (healing, religious ritual, with disciples), he went off alone to pray.

There is no gospel evidence that Jesus prayed in public in anything like the way prayers are conducted at government events, such as school graduation ceremonies, legislative sessions, swearing in of public officials, or football games.

There was a Roman Coliseum for sports just outside Jerusalem. So, Jesus had an opportunity to teach about prayers at sports events. There is no gospel evidence that Jesus prayed before sports events. There is no gospel evidence that Jesus said there should be prayers before sports events.

The best evidence Christians have about "Where Jesus Would Pray?" clearly tells Christians that they should pray in private where no one can hear them. That evidence also tells Christians that they should not pray in public.

IS PUBLIC PRAYER THE WORK OF SATAN?

Christians who believe Satan is real should be asking why some Christians want government to conduct public prayers. Who would be for public prayers in disobedience to Jesus?

The logical answer for Christians who believe in Satan is that Satan opposes what Jesus taught and did. That makes Satan a likely cause of the Christian campaign for public prayers.

Why would Satan want public prayers by government? Since Satan's purpose is advanced when Christians disobey Jesus, Satan would want Christians to disobey Jesus' teachings and the examples of his life.

Satan would use the government prayer controversy to tempt Christians with anger, pride, righteous vanity and arrogance. Satan would tempt Christians into perverting God's spiritual kingdom into an earthly kingdom of powerful Christians who want the personal triumph of creating their human idea of God's kingdom on earth.

Christians who believe Satan exists can marvel at how Satan seduces Christian enthusiasm for Jesus. Satan tempts Christians into perverting Jesus' teachings and actions on prayer into an earthly instead of spiritual activity. The "diabolical" cleverness is that Satan tricks Christians into disobeying Jesus by exploiting Christian eagerness to glorify Jesus and demonstrate their faith.

Butterbean

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Re: Public Prayer.. WWJD?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2010, 07:36:40 AM »
This guy seems to be offended by prayer.  I wonder why likely less than a minute of prayer bothers him so?  Especially if it really were meaningless as an atheist would probably think.

Christians regard the four gospels as their best source of information about Jesus. Christians who want to live as Jesus lived use the gospels as their guide. So, wherever gospel verses describe Jesus as praying is where Christians should pray. If gospel verses describe Jesus teaching against praying somewhere, or Jesus not praying there, then Christians should not pray there.



Did Jesus ever pray in America?  Shoot! ;D




There is no gospel evidence that Jesus prayed in public in anything like the way prayers are conducted at government events, such as school graduation ceremonies, legislative sessions, swearing in of public officials, or football games.

There was a Roman Coliseum for sports just outside Jerusalem. So, Jesus had an opportunity to teach about prayers at sports events. There is no gospel evidence that Jesus prayed before sports events. There is no gospel evidence that Jesus said there should be prayers before sports events.



Does that guy think Jesus hung out at government events, school grad. ceremonies, sports events etc? 

Also, do you think every time that Jesus prayed is recorded in the gospels?



Most significant are Jesus' teachings in Matthew 6:5-6. This teaching contains:

* A statement against public prayer. When Jesus says it is hypocrisy to "pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets," we can be sure that "corners of the streets" are in public.

* A command to pray in private. When Jesus says, "when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door ...," we can be sure that Jesus is saying that prayers are private talking to god and not to be heard by others.

* A description of prayer as "secret." When Jesus says, "pray to thy father which is in secret," we can be sure that Jesus is emphasizing the private, non-public nature of prayer.
 



Let's look at the entire context:
Matthew 6
Giving to the Needy
 1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
 2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


See what He is saying here?  Don't do these things "to be seen by men" so you look like a big whoop.



 

R

Agnostic007

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Re: Public Prayer.. WWJD?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 07:46:03 AM »
America didn't exist  :)

Having read the entire text, I don't think Jesus, if he were alive today  ;) would approve of Christians praying in public in venues that had other faiths and non-believers. I think he went out of his way to clearly give instruction on prayer. What I suspect is this.. many Christians are proud of being Christian. It's part of an established, well organized, and thought to be respectable group. Many Christians use this public prayer to say "look at me, I'm one of you too" or "Look at me, I'm religious" . Since they can pray at any time, and any place, silently to themselves, and have the belief it will be heard loud and clear by their god, the excercise, ceremony, ritual if you will, of doing a canned, often repeated prayer out loud, to a captive audience is somewhat self centered, obnoxious and arrogant at its worst, misguided and ignores Jesus' personal instructions at best..

Your thoughts? 

Butterbean

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Re: Public Prayer.. WWJD?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 08:03:27 AM »
America didn't exist  :)

Having read the entire text, I don't think Jesus, if he were alive today  ;) would approve of Christians praying in public in venues that had other faiths and non-believers. I think he went out of his way to clearly give instruction on prayer. What I suspect is this.. many Christians are proud of being Christian. It's part of an established, well organized, and thought to be respectable group. Many Christians use this public prayer to say "look at me, I'm one of you too" or "Look at me, I'm religious" . Since they can pray at any time, and any place, silently to themselves, and have the belief it will be heard loud and clear by their god, the excercise, ceremony, ritual if you will, of doing a canned, often repeated prayer out loud, to a captive audience is somewhat self centered, obnoxious and arrogant at its worst, misguided and ignores Jesus' personal instructions at best..

Your thoughts?  

I don't really like to pray out loud so I don't do it often.  But I'm grateful when someone prays with me or for me or someone I want to pray for..out loud.    

I also feel that usually when people pray they are talking to God and that is what they are thinking about and concerned with..not "look at me, I'm religious."  I'm sure that may happen though.

The only "repeated, canned (sounding) prayers" I've really heard were in a Catholic Church and I don't know if that is really considered a public place?  
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Agnostic007

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Re: Public Prayer.. WWJD?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 08:19:23 AM »
I don't really like to pray out loud so I don't do it often.  But I'm grateful when someone prays with me or for me or someone I want to pray for..out loud.    

I also feel that usually when people pray they are talking to God and that is what they are thinking about and concerned with..not "look at me, I'm religious."  I'm sure that may happen though.

The only "repeated, canned (sounding) prayers" I've really heard were in a Catholic Church and I don't know if that is really considered a public place?  

Really? It's been a long time since I heard a prayer that didnt have "Father, we come to you father, to ask you father, to bless us oh father, etc etc... Like the number of Fathers gets it to the head of the line.. Rarely do I hear an original prayer..

Butterbean

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Re: Public Prayer.. WWJD?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 08:45:30 AM »
Really? It's been a long time since I heard a prayer that didnt have "Father, we come to you father, to ask you father, to bless us oh father, etc etc... Like the number of Fathers gets it to the head of the line.. Rarely do I hear an original prayer..

I think the majority of the ones I hear are original and from the heart of the pray-er. 

Unless they are fooling me  >:(





 ;D
R