Author Topic: Dorian said "Ronnie would probably win, I don't know"  (Read 136688 times)

theonlyone

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #550 on: July 29, 2010, 10:56:57 AM »
 ???

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #551 on: July 29, 2010, 11:03:25 AM »
Ronnie 03 would have more ' size ' and that's it , it's his worse year for conditioning and balance & proportion , 99 has better muscularity? elaborate on that don't just type it , symmetry? define symmetry as well , at least your understanding of it , in terms of balance & proportion and density & dryness , Dorian wins couple that with being a better poser as well , 99 isn't his best year not according to the experts of himself

Quote
Ronnie 03 would have more ' size ' and that's it , it's his worse year for conditioning and balance & proportion

I agree.

Quote
99 has better muscularity? elaborate on that don't just type it , symmetry? define symmetry as well , at least your understanding of it , in terms of balance & proportion and density & dryness , Dorian wins couple that with being a better poser as well , 99 isn't his best year not according to the experts of himself

As far as I know muscularity is not the same as "size" or muscular bulk. Its hard to explain, but a good way to show this is to look at Ronnie's most muscular shots and compare them to Dorian's, Ronnie has better muscularity. I think Shawn Ray had better muscularity than Dorian too. Correct me if I'm  wrong.
Symmetry as far as I know refers to not only left/right exactness, but also muscle shape, taper, small joints, aethetics, etc.  I also know that it goes hand in hand with proportion.

theonlyone

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #552 on: July 29, 2010, 11:06:12 AM »
 Сould Doryan beat this? No he's in his own league

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #553 on: July 29, 2010, 11:12:01 AM »
Well ,beyond the fact that none of you will change their minds no matter which pic or quote is posted here, the thing is that Dorian changed the name of the game, set new standards. Ronnie IMHO for most parts improved on them but he didn't have the same impact that Dorian did nor did he face the same competition. People should just remember that a guy like Dillett never placed higher than 4th in the 'O, Vince Taylor comes in 5th in '95 (may be the most competitive field ever) etc...Does anyone believe that a guy like Muntzer wouldn't place higher than 9th at the 'O today or during Ronnie's best years (he never fared better)? Labrada, Nasser, Priest, Michael Francois, Clairmonte, Baker, Fux, Matarazzo,...Flex '98 was a shitty oil bag already (he was better at the AC that year) and was nothing compared to his '93 showing for which is lost without the smallest doubt to Dorian. And Levrone: finished second twice against Ronnie just on the basis of his upper body (guy could have shown up in a wheelchair that it wouldn't have made a difference) and twice against Dorian (but in his two best showings ever). Seriously, Ronnie's competition has been guys like Badell, DJ, Orvlle Burke, Titus, Gunter...Not exactly the same.
quote for truth. sorry hulkster

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #554 on: July 29, 2010, 11:25:02 AM »
What do they have to gain by Dorian Yates winning?
nothing

point being that the judges fuck up shows all the time

check the david henry thread

most everyone in bodybuilding agrees that the judges don't always do a good job

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #555 on: July 29, 2010, 11:42:45 AM »
I agree.

As far as I know muscularity is not the same as "size" or muscular bulk. Its hard to explain, but a good way to show this is to look at Ronnie's most muscular shots and compare them to Dorian's, Ronnie has better muscularity. I think Shawn Ray had better muscularity than Dorian too. Correct me if I'm  wrong.
Symmetry as far as I know refers to not only left/right exactness, but also muscle shape, taper, small joints, aethetics, etc.  I also know that it goes hand in hand with proportion.

No it's not the same as muscular bulk , muscularity relates to density & dryness and the ability to clearly see the muscles defined and separated from each other in the absence of bodyfat and water and guess who ruled the roost in this department? Ronnie in some areas shows more detail than Dorian and in some areas more striations it doesn't mean he's carrying more muscle , less fat or less water

striations are genetic obviously you need pretty great conditioning to see them but for the most part they are genetic , which is why some guys have more than others Munzer and have them in some places other don't like Munzer had striations on his rectus femoris and I don't recall seeing anyone else who had them

Dryness is the absence of water that can obscure the muscles from being fully shown , a lot of times you see a reference to Dorian's skin being like tissue paper covering pure muscle , no water or fat to obscure the muscles

Density is the absence of fat from the muscles so in essence all you're left with his pure muscle , again to use Dorian has the reference when they go on about his muscle hardness , which is exactly why Ronnie 1998/2001 is considered his best showings ever because his density & dryness are at their absolute best especially compared to 2003 and 2000

the combination of muscular bulk supplemented by muscle hardness ( density ) and muscle dryness is highly prized by the judges , it really can't be understated , it's extremely hard to tie this all-together in one shot and it was Dorian's hallmark for years and this combo is what saved his ass in 1997 because he was up against a guy who couldn't compete in this area and his severely deficient back

Symmetry doesn't really mean left right exactness , because nothing in nature is truly symmetrical , and right or left hand dominant people are always going to have one arm slighting bigger than the other , one quads etc , now obviously judges look for obvious and glaring signs of this type of discrepancy but in normal contexts on the word it refers to taper , joint size , hip size , waist size AND muscular balance & proportion , Flex is known as the Sultan of Symmetry for the first part of this criteria , and Dorian is know for the second

now the thing with all of this criteria is , it is ALL judged at the exact same time in every single pose from every single angle and no one part of the criteria is more important than the other , if a guy has great symmetry but is severely lacking in density & dryness and is a shitty poser he's not going to win , if a guy is carrying a lot of muscular bulk yet his conditioning sucks he's not gonna do well , it's who meets ALL of the criteria better than who he is being compared to us usually judged the winner

So as I've said before while Ronnie meets part(s) of the criteria better than Dorian , as a whole when everything is being ascertained he doesn't meet ALL of the criteria better.



NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #556 on: July 29, 2010, 12:14:33 PM »
Сould Doryan beat this? No he's in his own league

 :-X  :-X  :-X  how did you get Hulkster's screen saver?

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #557 on: July 29, 2010, 12:23:50 PM »
nothing

point being that the judges fuck up shows all the time

check the david henry thread

most everyone in bodybuilding agrees that the judges don't always do a good job


You didn't say they made mistakes, you said they were "crooked as politicians."  That implies corruption.

From what I've seen here, it's the same thing anyway - the judges got it right when the bodybuilder they like wins, but were politically motivated or just bad when they got it wrong.  It's a ridiculous argument.

Anyway, beside from being judges, their opinion should always count more because they were actually at the contest, with the best seats in the house.  To look two dimensional photos and try to say you can do a better job is laughable.

Y

theonlyone

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #558 on: July 29, 2010, 12:52:47 PM »

You didn't say they made mistakes, you said they were "crooked as politicians."  That implies corruption.

From what I've seen here, it's the same thing anyway - the judges got it right when the bodybuilder they like wins, but were politically motivated or just bad when they got it wrong.  It's a ridiculous argument.

Anyway, beside from being judges, their opinion should always count more because they were actually at the contest, with the best seats in the house.  To look two dimensional photos and try to say you can do a better job is laughable.



 AssGape what did u exactly mean?

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #559 on: July 29, 2010, 12:53:23 PM »
I found a pic of ND's bedroom. Someone has some explaining to do :o


NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #560 on: July 29, 2010, 12:57:51 PM »
I found a pic of ND's bedroom. Someone has some explaining to do :o


Projection , look up the word  ;)

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #561 on: July 29, 2010, 01:44:08 PM »
Quote
because Hulkster has in fact said not only did Ronnie win without incident ( 2001 ) he in fact ' dominated ' a contest he lost the entire prejudging in by 6 points !


yes. and the pics and videos confirmed that he dominated Jay in those rounds.

once again, you assume the scores were accurate in the early rounds.

they were not. like everyone has been trying to get through your thick head for the last few pages..

 ::)


are you ever going to learn what we all are teaching you? ??? ::)

Luckily for Ronnie in 2001, the judges realized their errors and he ended up winning anyway.

but they really fucked up the judging in those early rounds. Jay had no back, a blocky structure, few details other than quads etc. he was a mess.

even ronnie in not that great shape was much better.
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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #562 on: July 29, 2010, 01:58:27 PM »
No it's not the same as muscular bulk , muscularity relates to density & dryness and the ability to clearly see the muscles defined and separated from each other in the absence of bodyfat and water and guess who ruled the roost in this department? Ronnie in some areas shows more detail than Dorian and in some areas more striations it doesn't mean he's carrying more muscle , less fat or less water

striations are genetic obviously you need pretty great conditioning to see them but for the most part they are genetic , which is why some guys have more than others Munzer and have them in some places other don't like Munzer had striations on his rectus femoris and I don't recall seeing anyone else who had them

Dryness is the absence of water that can obscure the muscles from being fully shown , a lot of times you see a reference to Dorian's skin being like tissue paper covering pure muscle , no water or fat to obscure the muscles

Density is the absence of fat from the muscles so in essence all you're left with his pure muscle , again to use Dorian has the reference when they go on about his muscle hardness , which is exactly why Ronnie 1998/2001 is considered his best showings ever because his density & dryness are at their absolute best especially compared to 2003 and 2000

the combination of muscular bulk supplemented by muscle hardness ( density ) and muscle dryness is highly prized by the judges , it really can't be understated , it's extremely hard to tie this all-together in one shot and it was Dorian's hallmark for years and this combo is what saved his ass in 1997 because he was up against a guy who couldn't compete in this area and his severely deficient back

Symmetry doesn't really mean left right exactness , because nothing in nature is truly symmetrical , and right or left hand dominant people are always going to have one arm slighting bigger than the other , one quads etc , now obviously judges look for obvious and glaring signs of this type of discrepancy but in normal contexts on the word it refers to taper , joint size , hip size , waist size AND muscular balance & proportion , Flex is known as the Sultan of Symmetry for the first part of this criteria , and Dorian is know for the second

now the thing with all of this criteria is , it is ALL judged at the exact same time in every single pose from every single angle and no one part of the criteria is more important than the other , if a guy has great symmetry but is severely lacking in density & dryness and is a shitty poser he's not going to win , if a guy is carrying a lot of muscular bulk yet his conditioning sucks he's not gonna do well , it's who meets ALL of the criteria better than who he is being compared to us usually judged the winner

So as I've said before while Ronnie meets part(s) of the criteria better than Dorian , as a whole when everything is being ascertained he doesn't meet ALL of the criteria better.




You mean..."in your opinion"...right??  ;)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #563 on: July 29, 2010, 02:15:52 PM »
You mean..."in your opinion"...right??  ;)
yes my educated opinion  ;)

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #564 on: July 29, 2010, 02:22:26 PM »
yes. and the pics and videos confirmed that he dominated Jay in those rounds.

once again, you assume the scores were accurate in the early rounds.

they were not. like everyone has been trying to get through your thick head for the last few pages..

 ::)


are you ever going to learn what we all are teaching you? ??? ::)

Luckily for Ronnie in 2001, the judges realized their errors and he ended up winning anyway.

but they really fucked up the judging in those early rounds. Jay had no back, a blocky structure, few details other than quads etc. he was a mess.

even ronnie in not that great shape was much better.

yes all hail the King of excuses Hulkster

you have an opinion , in constantly contradicts facts & reality those of us in the know , laugh at how stupid you are , like when you posted ' two independent sources ' and don't know what ' quotation marks ' are and Ronnie's calves are more detailed and Dorian lost the most dominate Olympia wins in the contests history  ;D

you have a position and it's constantly wrong

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #565 on: July 29, 2010, 02:26:50 PM »
yes my educated opinion  ;)

did you take "BBing contest judging 101" in college?

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #566 on: July 29, 2010, 02:40:32 PM »
did you take "BBing contest judging 101" in college?

nope , just read many , many books ( and no not comic books either  ;) ) on the subject , magazines , articles , IFBB website , as much information as I could get my hands on

like my stupid friend Hulkster , I too thought Dorian should have lost the 1993 Mr Olympia , but this was back in 1993 not currently , I thought Flex looked like a better version of Haney I was completely dumbfounded on how Dorian with his wide waist and unaesthetic physique could possibly beat Flex , I did the old ignorant fanboy take ' It's a fix , the contest was politics , Flex was shafted etc ' one thing that bugged me was why Flex was smiling conceding second place and then proclaiming Dorian was unbeatable  , then I learned how contests were judged and just how wrong I was and how far ahead Dorian was

I then did something 99% of people on this board can't do , admit I was wrong and separated what I think should win from what does win , if given the choice on whose physique I would rather have Flex or Dorian , I'd take Flex without a moments hesitation , I would take a host of people's physiques over Dorian's however that doesn't mean Dorian wouldn't beat them


Palpatine Q

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #567 on: July 29, 2010, 02:47:05 PM »
nope , just read many , many books ( and no not comic books either  ;) ) on the subject , magazines , articles , IFBB website , as much information as I could get my hands on

like my stupid friend Hulkster , I too thought Dorian should have lost the 1993 Mr Olympia , but this was back in 1993 not currently , I thought Flex looked like a better version of Haney I was completely dumbfounded on how Dorian with his wide waist and unaesthetic physique could possibly beat Flex , I did the old ignorant fanboy take ' It's a fix , the contest was politics , Flex was shafted etc ' one thing that bugged me was why Flex was smiling conceding second place and then proclaiming Dorian was unbeatable  , then I learned how contests were judged and just how wrong I was and how far ahead Dorian was

I then did something 99% of people on this board can't do , admit I was wrong and separated what I think should win from what does win , if given the choice on whose physique I would rather have Flex or Dorian , I'd take Flex without a moments hesitation , I would take a host of people's physiques over Dorian's however that doesn't mean Dorian wouldn't beat them



Internet BBing Expert =  serious business.  ;D

J/K.....i can respect that

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #568 on: July 29, 2010, 02:49:40 PM »
Internet BBing Expert =  serious business.  ;D

J/K.....i can respect that

 ;D

Hulkster

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #569 on: July 29, 2010, 03:27:00 PM »
Quote
you have a position and it's constantly corroborated by the visual evidence and eyewitness testimony

fixed.
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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #570 on: July 29, 2010, 04:27:00 PM »
Luckily for Ronnie in 2001, the judges realized their errors and he ended up winning anyway.
but they really fucked up the judging in those early rounds. Jay had no back, a blocky structure, few details other than quads etc. he was a mess.
even ronnie in not that great shape was much better.

dude, did you just say that the 2001 version of Jay was a mess??

at that show Jay beat: Levrone, Ray, Cormier, Gunter, Burke, Ruhl, James, ect... So he must have looked pretty good!
 

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #571 on: July 29, 2010, 04:55:44 PM »
fixed.

fixed for delusion as usual

the ' overwhelming visual evidence ' you provided was A) manipulated , morphed and tampered with and B) led you to so insanely moronic conclusions like Dorian lost in 93 , and Ronnie has more detailed calves , and 98 wasn't close , and 01 Ronnie dominated , etc

you see things that contradict reality and facts.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #572 on: July 29, 2010, 04:58:02 PM »
dude, did you just say that the 2001 version of Jay was a mess??

at that show Jay beat: Levrone, Ray, Cormier, Gunter, Burke, Ruhl, James, ect... So he must have looked pretty good!
 

That proves my point , he sees the opposite of reality and contradicts it often. in other words delusional.

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #573 on: July 29, 2010, 04:59:55 PM »
Ditto. Very entertaining and the action scenes were great. No complaints about the female casting either.

the kracken wasnt that dope

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Re: Could Dorian beat this?
« Reply #574 on: July 29, 2010, 05:54:50 PM »
Don't bring Jay Cutler into this, he's a fridge with no fanbase and was on least 5 diuretics in 01 according to the wizard of truth