Dorian said "Ronnie would probably win, I don't know"

[NeoSeminole]

ND, sorry to be harsh but Ronnie is better than Dorian

if it's any consolation, I feel that Dorian is the 2nd best bodybuilder of all-time

[NarcissisticDeity]

lol, poor ND

how long was Lee Haney's reign? How long was Dorian's reign? How long was Ronnie's reign?

you think pointing out 2 yrs in the last 25 changes what I said? lmao

Still don't get it , Haney , Dorian and Ronnie all beat men heavier than them , it's no coincidence that they were usually the heaviest men in the contest but it wasn't the only reason they won

1998 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Fux , Gunther , Dillett ALL who outweighed him
1999 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Dillett , Fux and Rhul ALL who outweighed him
2000 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Rhul , Gunther ALL who outweighed him
2001 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Rhul , Gunther , ALL who outweighed him
2002 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Gunther , Rhul , Atwood , ALL who outweighed him

I could run the rest with Dorian who most of the time was NOT the heaviest guy , Haney was usually the heaviest but not always

more often than NOT Ronnie was not the heaviest guy your ' logic ' is as usual severely lacking and contradictory to facts and reality

[NarcissisticDeity]

spoken like a novice who doesn't know how bodybuilding contests are judged. You forgot about Ronnie's advantage in muscular bulk, size, mass, weight, shape, fullness, geometry, definition, detail, separations, striations, and charisma

hahahahahaha don't forget his advantage in ass-lines 

[Cleanest Natural]

u 2 should get toghether and sort it out like real men

[NarcissisticDeity]

ND, sorry to be harsh but Ronnie is better than Dorian

if it's any consolation, I feel that Dorian is the 2nd best bodybuilder of all-time

Neo sorry to bust out facts but Ronnie faced Dorian a total of eight times and lost every single time 
and if it's any consolation he once came as close as 5th place to Dorian 

[NeoSeminole]

Still don't get it , Haney , Dorian and Ronnie all beat men heavier than them , it's no coincidence that they were usually the heaviest men in the contest but it wasn't the only reason they won

1998 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Fux , Gunther , Dillett ALL who outweighed him
1999 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Dillett , Fux and Rhul ALL who outweighed him
2000 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Rhul , Gunther ALL who outweighed him
2001 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Rhul , Gunther , ALL who outweighed him
2002 O Ronnie beat , Nasser , Gunther , Rhul , Atwood , ALL who outweighed him

I could run the rest with Dorian who most of the time was NOT the heaviest guy , Haney was usually the heaviest but not always

more often than NOT Ronnie was not the heaviest guy your ' logic ' is as usual severely lacking and contradictory to facts and reality

you still don't get it, do you? Were any of those guys more conditioned than Mr Olympia? Did any of them have better backs? All you did was pick guys with size and nothing else. It's no different than me saying "Bob Paris was more balanced and proportionate than Haney but lost. Therefore, balance and proportion don' matter."

Ronnie was nowhere near as incomplete as any of the guys you mentioned. A more accurate parallel would be the smaller, more conditioned, more balanced Gaspari vs the bigger, less conditioned, less balanced Haney. Who did the judges choose?

[NarcissisticDeity]

you still don't get it, do you? Were any of those guys more conditioned than Mr Olympia? Did any of them have better backs? All you did was pick guys with size and nothing else. It's no different than me saying "Bob Paris was more balanced and proportionate than Haney but lost. Therefore, balance and proportion don' matter."

Ronnie was nowhere near as incomplete as any of the guys you mentioned. A more accurate parallel would be the smaller, more conditioned, more balanced Gaspari vs the bigger, less conditioned, less balanced Haney. Who did the judges choose?

you still don't get it, do you? Were any of those guys more conditioned than Mr Olympia? Did any of them have better backs? All you did was pick guys with size and nothing else. It's no different than me saying "Bob Paris was more balanced and proportionate than Haney but lost. Therefore, balance and proportion don' matter."

NO it's you who doesn't ' get it ' you tried to use them as an example that the judging criteria favors size over the rest if the criteria and it's not how it works. like I always maintained ALL of the criteria matters than on part of it

Ronnie was nowhere near as incomplete as any of the guys you mentioned. A more accurate parallel would be the smaller, more conditioned, more balanced Gaspari vs the bigger, less conditioned, less balanced Haney. Who did the judges choose?

still trying to connect the dots huh?   Yates is NOT Gaspari and you keep trying to oversimplify the judging criteria to fit your position


Dorian 93 has a clear advantage in density , dryness , balance , proportion and he's a better poser , you think a 30 lb weight ' advantage ' that isn't even dense muscle trumps ALL of that? of course you do because you're dense but suffice it to say 2003 would fall flat on his face like every other time he faced Dorian

[NeoSeminole]

NO it's you who doesn't ' get it ' you tried to use them as an example that the judging criteria favors size over the rest if the criteria and it's not how it works. like I always maintained ALL of the criteria matters than on part of it

show me where I said the judges favor size over ALL of the rest of the criteria

what I said is the precedent set by judges at the Mr. Olympia is a trend that favors size. What this means is if everything else is equal, the biggest guy with good conditioning will beat the smaller guy with great conditioning

Yates is NOT Gaspari and you keep trying to oversimplify the judging criteria to fit your position

no shit they are not the same person. Even someone who doesn't follow bodybuilding could tell you they are 2 different people. The point is a smaller, more conditioned, more balanced guy lost to a bigger, less conditioned, less balanced guy. You keep arguing that 93 Dorian would beat 03 Ronnie b/c he has better conditioning and balance. This is wishful thinking. Dorian would lose to Ronnie for the same reasons Gaspari lost to the less conditioned and less balanced Haney. That is not wishful thinking; it is the precedent set by the judges whom you keep claiming are the only ones whose opinion truly matters

[NarcissisticDeity]

show me where I said the judges favor size over ALL of the rest of the criteria

what I said is the precedent set by judges at the Mr. Olympia is a trend that favors size. What this means is if everything else is equal, the biggest guy with good conditioning will beat the smaller guy with great conditioning

no shit they are not the same person. Even someone who doesn't follow bodybuilding could tell you they are 2 different people. The point is a smaller, more conditioned, more balanced guy lost to a bigger, less conditioned, less balanced guy. You keep arguing that 93 Dorian would beat 03 Ronnie b/c he has better conditioning and balance. This is wishful thinking. Dorian would lose to Ronnie for the same reasons Gaspari lost to the less conditioned and less balanced Haney. That is not wishful thinking; it is the precedent set by the judges whom you keep claiming are the only ones whose opinion truly matters

show me where I said the judges favor size over ALL of the rest of the criteria

what I said is the precedent set by judges at the Mr. Olympia is a trend that favors size. What this means is if everything else is equal, the biggest guy with good conditioning will beat the smaller guy with great conditioning

Ronnie's advantage in size > Dorian's advantage in conditioning right here fan boy , you omitted Dorian's other clear advantages in the judging criteria all in favor of size

everything isn't equal that's your whole problem , density & dryness aren't equal and neither is balance & proportion , and how about posing?

no shit they are not the same person. Even someone who doesn't follow bodybuilding could tell you they are 2 different people. The point is a smaller, more conditioned, more balanced guy lost to a bigger, less conditioned, less balanced guy. You keep arguing that 93 Dorian would beat 03 Ronnie b/c he has better conditioning and balance. This is wishful thinking. Dorian would lose to Ronnie for the same reasons Gaspari lost to the less conditioned and less balanced Haney. That is not wishful thinking; it is the precedent set by the judges whom you keep claiming are the only ones whose opinion truly matters

Where did you get Gaspari was better balanced than Haney? oohh another oversimplification bent to fit your point of view , Gaspari's structure was severely lacking , he was all legs and this is one area he had better balance & proportion over Haney and that's it , he was shorter , he had narrow clavicles , he was upper body lagged behind his lower , he had zero width his lat spreads sucked , his ab-thigh while hard & dry showed his narrowness , he was blocky so your analogy is wrong because all things weren't ' equal ' compared with Haney and Gaspari

And fast forward to 2003/1993 things aren't ' equal ' Dorian smokes him in almost all of the criteria sans muscular bulk , and what separates athletes when all things are ' equal ' ? who is better conditioned Flex and Ronnie 1998 it's said the contest was won by Ronnie because of hams & glutes

[ponchess pylot]

only one thing worse than a gay troll who is obsessed with a steroided bodybuilder...a gay troll who fails to acknowledge that his obsession is pathological...yes ND you have issues!

[NarcissisticDeity]

only one thing worse than a gay troll who is obsessed with a steroided bodybuilder...a gay troll who fails to acknowledge that his obsession is pathological...yes ND you have issues!

says the gimmick 

thanks for playing we have some lovely parting gifts for you

[ponchess pylot]

says the gay troll....hahahahahahh,.....you need some new material!

[The_Hammer]

I've seen Ronnie's prejudging from '03 and his size is unmatched.

I've seen Dorian's prejudging from '93 and his proportions are unmatched.

Very hard call.  Wish better quality videos were posted online.

[Immortal_Technique]

Excellent back comparison above, Jesus look at the difference! Ronnie's hams and glutes are MORE shredded than Dorians. I'm not saying overall he's in better condition, but having possibly the best hams and glutes this side of Gaspari is something even Dorian can't claim.

To say Dorian has superior balance and proportion is merely your opinion. The judges clearly felt Ronnie's was pretty good for 8 years. I personally think Ronnie's muscle bellies are fuller, waist is smaller. Yes ass is bigger, but if you look at the pics the difference in calves isn't even that noticeable from the back, or if it is it's not enough to make up for losing every other bodypart. No it's not all about size, but you've conceded before Ronnie has better symmetry. Crazy taper, great overall thickness, no missing bodyparts, powerful look and when he sucks his gut in he has great lines. Dorian is no oil painting, Ronnie has always been considered more aesthetic by many, including me

As said above, Dorian's conditioning is not enough to make up for the 330lb of quality shape and size Ronnie carries with still totally shredded lower body from the rear, MORE shredded than Dorian. He has every angle covered apart from hardness from the front.

Also era would matter. In late 70s yeah Dorian might win. In early 2000s Ronnie would win. Now who knows, except that most people, including Dorian when quizzed directly and in context, suspect Ronnie might win.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Excellent back comparison above, Jesus look at the difference! Ronnie's hams and glutes are MORE shredded than Dorians. I'm not saying overall he's in better condition, but having possibly the best hams and glutes this side of Gaspari is something even Dorian can't claim.

To say Dorian has superior balance and proportion is merely your opinion. The judges clearly felt Ronnie's was pretty good for 8 years. I personally think Ronnie's muscle bellies are fuller, waist is smaller. Yes ass is bigger, but if you look at the pics the difference in calves isn't even that noticeable from the back, or if it is it's not enough to make up for losing every other bodypart. No it's not all about size, but you've conceded before Ronnie has better symmetry. Crazy taper, great overall thickness, no missing bodyparts, powerful look and when he sucks his gut in he has great lines. Dorian is no oil painting, Ronnie has always been considered more aesthetic by many, including me

As said above, Dorian's conditioning is not enough to make up for the 330lb of quality shape and size Ronnie carries with still totally shredded lower body from the rear, MORE shredded than Dorian. He has every angle covered apart from hardness from the front.

Also era would matter. In late 70s yeah Dorian might win. In early 2000s Ronnie would win. Now who knows, except that most people, including Dorian when quizzed directly and in context, suspect Ronnie might win.

Excellent back comparison above, Jesus look at the difference! Ronnie's hams and glutes are MORE shredded than Dorians. I'm not saying overall he's in better condition, but having possibly the best hams and glutes this side of Gaspari is something even Dorian can't claim.

What is the difference between hams & glutes ? you're just like Hulkster making claims what's the difference? besides Ronnie's being grossly oversized and out of balance with the rest of his physique. Dorian's are striated why are his better? the same with hamstrings what makes his better? take a look at Dorian's hams compared to Ronnies , tell me what muscle he has developed that Dorian doesn't and how they are better , stop making empty claims

To say Dorian has superior balance and proportion is merely your opinion. The judges clearly felt Ronnie's was pretty good for 8 years. I personally think Ronnie's muscle bellies are fuller, waist is smaller. Yes ass is bigger, but if you look at the pics the difference in calves isn't even that noticeable from the back, or if it is it's not enough to make up for losing every other bodypart. No it's not all about size, but you've conceded before Ronnie has better symmetry. Crazy taper, great overall thickness, no missing bodyparts, powerful look and when he sucks his gut in he has great lines. Dorian is no oil painting, Ronnie has always been considered more aesthetic by many, including me

To say Dorian has superior balance and proportion is merely your opinion. The judges clearly felt Ronnie's was pretty good for 8 years.

It's not only my opinion and it's obvious to anyone with eyeballs and a general understanding of what balance & proportion are , especially compared to Ronnie 03. it's crystal clear to anyone who knows what to look for that directly compared against Dorian , Ronnie's calves aren't in proportion with his quads or his glutes are so grossly oversized they can actually be seen from the front , not so on Dorian , or forearms that are in proportion with the biceps/triceps , etc

and the judges thought it was pretty good for 8 years COMPARED with who he was competing with , was he competing with Dorian? I mean seriously this is your response?

Ronnie's muscle bellies are fuller? you mean carrying more SQ fat instead of dense muscle? his waist is smaller but his entire midsection pales in comparison , abdominals , intercostals , serrauts , obliques , all not as sharply defined what advantage is this? Dorian doesn't lose on every other bodypart another overstatement and parts don't win poses , on paper Ronnie should have a much better ab-thigh yet he doesn't same with the side-triceps this is where balance & proportion come into play to tie everything together

I've conceding Ronnie has better ' symmetry ' meaning narrower waist & hips , smaller joints , but the other part of symmetry he doesn't balance & proportion . crazy taper? part of symmetry which you keep typing differing parts as an advantage in the same criteria. great overall thickness? at the expense of conditioning. no missing bodyparts? LMFAO enough said you typed this at the beginning of this thread and it's still laughable his calves are MISSING missing the classic diamond shape , missing proportionate size in relation to his oversized quads , missing development & separaton of the gastrocnemious inner & outer heads , I mean stop typing this nonsense

And great lines huh? lol spoken like a delusional fanboy , Ronnie more aesthetic than Dorian? is not saying much , what's more aesthetic a tank or a dump truck because neither are aesthetic in the classic sense of the word , you think Ronnie is aesthetic because he has a narrow waist & hips and small joints? WRONG much more to aesthetics than that my friend

The Greek Ideal is the hallmark of an aesthetic physique , having the neck , arms and calves ALL the same size , you think Ronnie meets this? 24" arms and 17" calves ? nope sorry , in ancient Greece they found most of the statutes that had aesthetic appeal all had great calves , abdominals and delts , these are the foundations of an aesthetic physique you think Ronnie is aesthetic while missing two out of three? balance & proportion are also part & parcel of an aesthetic physique , there is much , much more to an aesthetic physique than just a small waist & taper , again Ronnie may be more ' aesthetic ' than Dorian but that's not saying much

As said above, Dorian's conditioning is not enough to make up for the 330lb of quality shape and size Ronnie carries with still totally shredded lower body from the rear, MORE shredded than Dorian. He has every angle covered apart from hardness from the front.

oh boy lol so redundant size and lower body conditioning matter more than total conditioning , balance , and completeness , gotcha  

Also era would matter. In late 70s yeah Dorian might win. In early 2000s Ronnie would win. Now who knows, except that most people, including Dorian when quizzed directly and in context, suspect Ronnie might win.

who knows? we know in fact Ronnie's said twice that Dorian would beat him NOT mind you ' might beat him ' he said in fact when asked ' you think so ' Ronnie's reply was " I KNOW SO "  

Ronnie feels even after he started winning Dorian still would have beat him , that speaks volumes on how great he thinks Dorian is regardless if you agree or not.

[JP_RC]

Damn ND, take it easy now, don't you get tired of writing paragraphs and paragraphs of this over and over again?

Interesting title change... when did Dorian say that?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Damn ND, take it easy now, don't you get tired of writing paragraphs and paragraphs of this over and over again?

Interesting title change... when did Dorian say that?

I never get tired of correcting people 

[NeoSeminole]

Ronnie's muscle bellies are fuller? you mean carrying more SQ fat instead of dense muscle?

The Greek Ideal is the hallmark of an aesthetic physique , having the neck , arms and calves ALL the same size , you think Ronnie meets this? 24" arms and 17" calves ?

lol, "17 inch calves" Right... Ronnie's calves at 287 lbs are 1 inch bigger than mine



what does that make Jay's calves? 18 inches?

[NarcissisticDeity]

lol, "17 inch calves" Right... Ronnie's calves at 287 lbs are 1 inch bigger than mine


what does that make Jay's calves? 18 inches?

He showed very good conditioning for the weight , how does it compared to 2001/1998? it really doesn't and how does it compare to Dorian? same thing it really doesn't , the difference in conditioning isn't negligible it's noticeable

17" calves probably not but ain't much bigger and they still suck   and they still aren't the same size or anywhere near the size of his arms that year

[NeoSeminole]

He showed very good conditioning for the weight , how does it compared to 2001/1998? it really doesn't and how does it compare to Dorian? same thing it really doesn't , the difference in conditioning isn't negligible it's noticeable

stop comparing 03 Ronnie vs 98/01 Ronnie. He doesn't need to compete against himself in conditioning. This discussion is about Dorian vs Ronnie, and Ronnie's huge advantage in size and muscularity outweighs the difference in conditioning

17" calves probably not but ain't much bigger and they still suck and they still aren't the same size or anywhere near the size of his arms that year

Ronnie's calves were comparable in size to Jay's that year and if you want to argue they weren't balanced with his arms, then Dorian's arms weren't anywhere near the size or detail of Ronnie's arms. So whatever difference in balance you want to penalize Ronnie for, then Dorian falls short in size and detail

[NarcissisticDeity]

stop comparing 03 Ronnie vs 98/01 Ronnie. He doesn't need to compete against himself in conditioning. This discussion is about Dorian vs Ronnie, and Ronnie's huge advantage in size and muscularity outweighs the difference in conditioning

Ronnie's calves were comparable in size to Jay's that year and if you want to argue they weren't balanced with his arms, then Dorian's arms weren't anywhere near the size or detail of Ronnie's arms. So whatever difference in balance you want to penalize Ronnie for, then Dorian falls short in size and detail

stop comparing 03 Ronnie vs 98/01 Ronnie. He doesn't need to compete against himself in conditioning. This discussion is about Dorian vs Ronnie, and Ronnie's huge advantage in size and muscularity outweighs the difference in conditioning

you mean stop pointing out the glaring difference in when Ronnie is on and off , at his best Ronnie would be lucky to compare favorably in conditioning to Yates in 03 HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA not even close , the huge advantage in size is NOT dense muscle so therefore it's not a huge advantage , and Dorian's HUGE advantage in density & dryness and balance & proportion and posing ALL trump Ronnie's ' advantage ' in ' size '

please learn noob NO one part of the criteria supercedes all of it

Ronnie's calves were comparable in size to Jay's that year and if you want to argue they weren't balanced with his arms, then Dorian's arms weren't anywhere near the size or detail of Ronnie's arms. So whatever difference in balance you want to penalize Ronnie for, then Dorian falls short in size and detail

so you'd like to think if that was IT and it's NOT go reread the clear advantages in balance & proportion I typed , Ronnie's calves suck which is more of a liability than Dorian's biceps , this is how it works.

[NeoSeminole]

you mean stop pointing out the glaring difference in when Ronnie is on and off

no, I mean let's focus on what this discussion is about: Ronnie vs Dorian. You're the village idiot comparing Ronnie to Ronnie

at his best Ronnie would be lucky to compare favorably in conditioning to Yates in 03 HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA not even close , the huge advantage in size is NOT dense muscle so therefore it's not a huge advantage , and Dorian's HUGE advantage in density & dryness and balance & proportion and posing ALL trump Ronnie's ' advantage ' in ' size '

you must have me confused with someone else. Show me where I said 03 Ronnie is comparable in conditioning to Dorian. What I've been saying throughout this thread is Ronnie's advantage in size > Dorian's advantage in conditioning. Even if Ronnie's was carrying 12 lbs extra fat and water, the difference in muscle would still be greater

[NarcissisticDeity]

no, I mean let's focus on what this discussion is about: Ronnie vs Dorian. You're the village idiot comparing Ronnie to Ronnie

you must have me confused with someone else. Show me where I said 03 Ronnie is comparable in conditioning to Dorian. What I've been saying throughout this thread is Ronnie's advantage in size > Dorian's advantage in conditioning. Even if Ronnie's was carrying 12 lbs extra fat and water, the difference in muscle would still be greater

no, I mean let's focus on what this discussion is about: Ronnie vs Dorian. You're the village idiot comparing Ronnie to Ronnie

I have , I did , I will , Ronnie ANY year doesn't compare to Dorian in terms of conditioning it's a settled case and any size advantage doesn't trump this and the other criteria

you must have me confused with someone else. Show me where I said 03 Ronnie is comparable in conditioning to Dorian. What I've been saying throughout this thread is Ronnie's advantage in size > Dorian's advantage in conditioning. Even if Ronnie's was carrying 12 lbs extra fat and water, the difference in muscle would still be greater

You actually tried to say Ronnie was better conditioned although maybe not in this thread however I digress . I know what you've been saying and it's wrong

an extra 12lbs of fat & water? so you're saying if Ronnie was 275lbs he would have conditioning on par with Yates? or like his previous best showings? I think NOT

we've seen Ronnie with peak conditioning in 1998/2001 and he was 249/247lbs respectively , and he's no where near it , there was enough of a difference between 1998 and 1999 to warrant a commentary on it and that was with a just an 8lb difference and another commentary on it compared to 2000 with another 7lbs difference , which outright proves he was better at a lighter weight and his conditioning suffered for it even with just 8lbs now you would be very delusional if you don't think the discrepancy between 1998 and 2003 is much , much more than 12lbs

and this brings us back to Dorian who always had better conditioning than Ronnie , much more so than Ronnie 2003 with better balance & proportion and posing Dorian would trample Ronnie again , NO weight advantage can negate all of this it simply can't

then to quell all of this nonsense about a weight advantage we'll use Dorian precontest 1995 283lbs , harder & drier than Ronnie at that weight , better balance & proportion , more complete so like Ronnie YOU still lose  

[NeoSeminole]

I have , I did , I will , Ronnie ANY year doesn't compare to Dorian in terms of conditioning

sorry hun, but 01 ASC Ronnie surpassed Dorian's conditioning. This isn't even up for debate as much as you like you try

an extra 12lbs of fat & water? so you're saying if Ronnie was 275lbs he would have conditioning on par with Yates? or like his previous best showings? I think NOT

how is this any different than you saying Dorian was hiding 20 lbs of muscle before a contest?

if Ronnie was 287 lbs with shredded glutes and feathered lats, then why is it hard to believe he could have stepped onstage at 275 lbs with even better conditioning? He was in the high 260s or low 270s in the 02 BFTO and we all know he over-dieted for the Mr. Olympia that year. There is a quote out there by Kevin Horton saying his physique on that day was the freakiest he had seen. It's not far-fetched that he was a few lbs heavier the following year from training hard after his loss at the GNC

[Immortal_Technique]

I give up, you're right Ronnie was carrying too much subcutaneous fat in 2003....30lbs worth rendering his blatant and significant size advantage an illusion.

The difference between '98 and 2003 was Ronnie being 'on' and Ronnie being 'off', so Ronnie was 'off' in 2003 right?

Furthermore I now realise Dorian's glutes and hams are just as good as Ronnie's. There is no muscle Ronnie has developed more than Dorian....not even biceps, quads (look at the sartorius!)hams, glutes, chest or delts.........and recycling words like "density" from quotes in the mid-90s actually overrides all visual evidence, apart from grainy black and white pics of course, rendering it "no comparison".

Ronnie "doesn't compare" to Dorian, bwahaha, the king of superfluous hyperbole strikes again.

I hate lowering myself to this name calling rubbish at the expense of rational debate. I respect your intelligence but sometimes you are a complete joke.

then to quell all of this nonsense about a weight advantage we'll use Dorian precontest 1995 283lbs , harder & drier than Ronnie at that weight , better balance & proportion , more complete so like Ronnie YOU still lose  

= Sad desperate projection of a phantasy stage showing. Torn biceps, sorry "one biceps shorter than the other", only 1 witness whose statement you hang everything on, and 1 studio b/w pic. I really can't believe you made such a meal of the 99 darkened pics when your whole dream is based on a single b/w studio pic which only recently emerged, completely mental. At least Ronnie was on a stage. You don't even feel the need to see any back shots of Dorian from the 95 shoot, yet profess total knowledge of the judging criteria.

I feel I've more than shown myself to be your match when it comes to level-headed analysis but you too often exaggerate things. In 98 aparently all the Kevins and Shawn Rays and Nassers and Flexes ceased to be a decent standard of competition, the glory days ended for you, it became easy to win the Olympia, you didn't even need balance and proportion or condition, none of the same things Dorian needed in his era - which according to you is actually Ronnie's era too   Mental.