Panel Clears Way For Mosque Near Ground Zero

[Soul Crusher]

240 buys into any moronic argument in these cases. 

[drkaje]

A mosque there was probably a part of their ultimate plan.

[Agnostic007]

Here is what the 1st Amendment says

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So what does this mean? It means the government cannot create a religion (i.e. Church of America) and force you to worship there, and/or stop you from worshiping the oak tree in your back yard if you so choose. No where does it say the constitution has to let you build a church, mosque, shrine or anything else for that matter.  There is no constitutional right to build a place of worship, it does not exist, period end of story.

Separation of church and state? Where does it say that?

Maybe if people would actually read the constitution, and not just go by all the rhetoric that passes as fact these days.

Fair enough.. but barring any zoning restrictions already in place, what would be the legal position if they were denied the right to build a church, or a McDonalds, or a Blimpies on that site? Would it delve into the realm of descrimination based on religion?

Secondly, the article said (I have no first hand knowledge) that the mosque would be 2 blocks away and not visible from ground zero. Would 3 blocks be okay? 4?

and finally, almost 10 yrs later and ground zero is still nothing.. where is all the concern about that?

" And now? Now Ground Zero remains virtually empty after almost nine years. "I describe it as a national disgrace," Larry Silverstein, the 78-year-old New York City real estate developer who owns the lease on the property, told Pelley

Pelley wrote in a companion article to the "60 Minutes" segment: "Silverstein and I should have been craning our necks at five skyscrapers, including America's tallest tower. We should have been jostled by commuters surging in and out of a spectacular, $2,000,000,000 train station. And, all around us, there should have been a gentle, cascading sound from the 9/11 memorial, two waterfalls laid out in the footprints of the Twin Towers, a whispering reminder of 2,752 people murdered here.

"But as we stood near the center of the seven-story pit, none of that was here. Nearly nine years after the attack on Manhattan, not one project was finished."

I see both sides of the issue, those against it aren't bad people, those for it aren't bad people. My opinion holds no more value or weight than anyone elses on this board (besides Goodrum). In my opinion, I don't have a problem with it. 

 

[Kazan]

I am simply pointing out that this has nothing to do with "upholding the constitution" or "separation of church and state". If it is not an enumerated power of the federal government then it is up to the state to decide ( the 10th amendment). So lets just say 80% of the people of New York are against it, then should the government of New York be able to say hey fuck the will of the people we will do what we want?

[Agnostic007]

I am simply pointing out that this has nothing to do with "upholding the constitution" or "separation of church and state". If it is not an enumerated power of the federal government then it is up to the state to decide ( the 10th amendment). So lets just say 80% of the people of New York are against it, then should the government of New York be able to say hey fuck the will of the people we will do what we want?

If 51% of New Yorkers said you can't show R rated movies in New York, would that be ok?

If 51% of New Yorkers said you cannot be a Muslim and live in New York, would that be ok?

If 51% of New Yorkers said Hondas are banned in New York  would that be ok?

If 51% of New Yorkers said you have to wear a uniform when outside would that be ok?

I'm not a big fan of the majority wins in every case.. I appreciate we have a system that protects the rights of the minority, and keeps the majority in check ..

[Kazan]

If 51% of New Yorkers said you can't show R rated movies in New York, would that be ok?

If 51% of New Yorkers said you cannot be a Muslim and live in New York, would that be ok?

If 51% of New Yorkers said Hondas are banned in New York  would that be ok?

If 51% of New Yorkers said you have to wear a uniform when outside would that be ok?

I'm not a big fan of the majority wins in every case.. I appreciate we have a system that protects the rights of the minority, and keeps the majority in check ..

I don't know the specifics of the New York state constitution, so sure it maybe "OK" for New York to do the above. The beauty of having a republic is if you don't like the laws of the state you live in there are 49 others that may be more to your liking.

[Dos Equis]

I don't know the specifics of the New York state constitution, so sure it maybe "OK" for New York to do the above. The beauty of having a republic is if you don't like the laws of the state you live in there are 49 others that may be more to your liking.

Agree.  If you disagree with the things are done, work to change the law.  If you can't change the law, move. 

[Agnostic007]

Agree.  If you disagree with the things are done, work to change the law.  If you can't change the law, move. 

Ironically, the law allows for federal judges to step in and change voters wishes.. where do you move to then?

[Dos Equis]

Ironically, the law allows for federal judges to step in and change voters wishes.. where do you move to then?

To another state.  The ruling only applies to California.

They can also amend their state constitution to get around whatever the judge ruled.  Very hard to do, but it still leaves the ultimate decision in the hands of the people.  From a practical standpoint, however, the men and women in black often have the final say.   

[SAMSON123]

To another state.  The ruling only applies to California.

They can also amend their state constitution to get around whatever the judge ruled.  Very hard to do, but it still leaves the ultimate decision in the hands of the people.  From a practical standpoint, however, the men and women in black often have the final say.   

Yeah right! It is the men with the dollar bills in their hand that have the final say.

Had this been a synagogue would there have been a complaint? Of course not... why? because those so called jews would have greased the palms of those necessary to make building the structure no problem. Instead we have LIARS talking about a building being landmarked (why was there no concern about that building or any other being landmarked before the mosque) or the greater lie of landing gears supposedly hitting or landing on the building...LIE LIE LIE... shameful..

Nonetheless the mosque will rise like all other structures and the opinion of the masses will mean nothing.

[Fury]

Muslims are the only group that has the audacity to even try something like this, and it has everything to do with the fact that they're the most intolerant and bigoted demographic on the planet.

This mosque is nothing more than a sign of Islamic supremacy over that area. A slap in the faces of the 3,000 people that died that day.

The Japanese wouldn't dare ask that a shrine to Hirohito be built at Pearl Harbor but, then again, they're not assholes. 

[Soul Crusher]

240 doesnt care that he is being played for a useful idiot for the muslims. 

This is not a con law issue since no one is denying them their right to pray or worship.  nowhere in the constitution does it say you hzve a right to pray whereever whenever and however you want. 

[BayGBM]

This is deeply disappointing!  This is not about religious tolerance.  In fact tolerating religious fanaticism is what gave us 9/11. I have no tolerance for that!  If the builders of this mosque feel slighted by my attitude so be it.  If they want someone to be mad at let them go be mad at their brethren in their faith who authored or supported 9/11.  The symbolism of erecting this mosque on the graves of the victims of 9/11 is unacceptable!  

This is more disturbing than Obama's failure to support gay marriage!  Shame!



Obama supports plan for mosque near ground zero
At a Ramadan dinner at the White House, the president breaks his silence on the issue, framing it as one of religious freedom.
By Peter Nicholas and Julia Love, Tribune Washington Bureau

President Obama on Friday took a strong stand in favor of building a mosque near the site where Muslim terrorists flew airplanes into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001, breaking his silence on a political tempest that has left the country divided.

Speaking at a White House dinner celebrating Ramadan, Obama framed the issue as one of religious freedom.

Muslims "have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama said, according to a White House transcript. "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."

The uproar over the proposed mosque has rekindled a debate over religious tolerance in a post-Sept. 11 society. Some relatives of Sept. 11 victims have come out against the mosque, as have prominent politicians.

Republican Rep. Peter T. King of New York said Friday that Obama was wrong.

"It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero," King said in a statement. "While the Muslim community has the right to build the mosque, they are abusing that right by needlessly offending so many people who have suffered so much.…Unfortunately the president caved into political correctness."

A majority doesn't want to see the mosque built, national surveys show. A CNN/Opinion Research poll earlier this month showed 68% opposed plans to build the mosque, with 29% in favor. Count as part of the minority New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who recently gave a speech defending the planned Islamic center...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-mosque-20100814,0,7153887.story

[Eyeball Chambers]

I'm not familiar with New York City, but it looks like the Mosque is about two blocks from the World Trade Center Location.

[Eyeball Chambers]

this is a weird issue.

the people who are saying govt should stay the hell out of our religion and other business - are the same people saying the govt should put a limit as to how many blocks from ground zero a certain religious group should be able to put up a church of their choosing.

Either you love the constitution, or you don't.  You defend it, even when you disagree with those employing it vehemently.  You support the right of any religious group - catholic, muslim, protestant, or satanic, or whatever - to put up a church anywhere they please.


For those who say the govt has too much power and should stay out of my life - but should be able to pick and choose which churches can go where based upon the religious beliefs of the founders - wow...

You've got a real knack for outing hypocrisy.

[powerpack]

Yeah right! It is the men with the dollar bills in their hand that have the final say.

Had this been a synagogue would there have been a complaint? Of course not... why? because those so called jews would have greased the palms of those necessary to make building the structure no problem. Instead we have LIARS talking about a building being landmarked (why was there no concern about that building or any other being landmarked before the mosque) or the greater lie of landing gears supposedly hitting or landing on the building...LIE LIE LIE... shameful..

Nonetheless the mosque will rise like all other structures and the opinion of the masses will mean nothing.

Jews never created Ground zero, Islamic extremists did.
No matter what the law says pyschocologically this is a terrible slap in the face of the USA.

[Eyeball Chambers]

Let them build, and make them as uncomfortable as possible?

I can't see how they'll even be able to use their mosque day to day if as many people are really as angry about this as I've heard.

[Kazan]

You've got a real knack for outing hypocrisy.

Please I already showed his argument of constitutionality is moot. You should actually know what the constitution says before you try to use it to justify something.

[SAMSON123]

Jews never created Ground zero, Islamic extremists did.
No matter what the law says pyschocologically this is a terrible slap in the face of the USA.

Of course the jew created GZ...by orchestrating the whole 9/11 DOMESTIC TERRORIST EVENT. Everyone of the participants was handsomely paid from Cheney to Silverstein and YOU became the fodder (soldiers of war) who have been slated fro death to insure that the ZIONIST who orchestrated all of this are paid again still byway of stealing Iraq's OIL, Afghanistan Opium, Heroin, Gas, Oil, and the newly found 3 TRILLION dollars in Gold, silver, Copper etc.

By the way are you at all concerned about the 1.7 Million innocent Iraqis killed based upon the AlQaida/Osama LIE even though your president admitted Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

America slaps its own self in the face

[Fury]

Do you care about the 270 million+ non-Muslims of varying faiths and ethnicities that have been murdered by Muslim hands over the course of their 1400 year jihad?

[George Whorewell]

Of course the jew created GZ...by orchestrating the whole 9/11 DOMESTIC TERRORIST EVENT. Everyone of the participants was handsomely paid from Cheney to Silverstein and YOU became the fodder (soldiers of war) who have been slated fro death to insure that the ZIONIST who orchestrated all of this are paid again still byway of stealing Iraq's OIL, Afghanistan Opium, Heroin, Gas, Oil, and the newly found 3 TRILLION dollars in Gold, silver, Copper etc.

By the way are you at all concerned about the 1.7 Million innocent Iraqis killed based upon the AlQaida/Osama LIE even though your president admitted Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

America slaps its own self in the face

One more outburst like this, and you will lose your bannana priveliges for one week.

[SAMSON123]

Do you care about the 270 million+ non-Muslims of varying faiths and ethnicities that have been murdered by Muslim hands over the course of their 1400 year jihad?

How about the 600 million slaughtered by those calling themselves Christians Catholics

[powerpack]

Of course the jew created GZ...by orchestrating the whole 9/11 DOMESTIC TERRORIST EVENT. Everyone of the participants was handsomely paid from Cheney to Silverstein and YOU became the fodder (soldiers of war) who have been slated fro death to insure that the ZIONIST who orchestrated all of this are paid again still byway of stealing Iraq's OIL, Afghanistan Opium, Heroin, Gas, Oil, and the newly found 3 TRILLION dollars in Gold, silver, Copper etc.

By the way are you at all concerned about the 1.7 Million innocent Iraqis killed based upon the AlQaida/Osama LIE even though your president admitted Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

America slaps its own self in the face

I dont know what your smoking but it must be good stuff

[240 is Back]

I dont care about any organized "religion", or business designed to brainwash and make profits.

I believe in a higher power which I worship, but I'm pretty sure out primitive minds couldn't comprehend a creator, no matter how over-confident we might be.  man-made documents prove nothing, as we're just evolved monkeys to begin with.  We don't teach the paper airplane or garden tomato to "understand" us, so our creator sure as heck didn't design us to be able to understand him/her.  Heck, we'd probably try to destroy him, let's admit, man is fcked up in that way.  We're self-destructive that way.


And really... the moment we evaluate any "religion" - saying one can build and the other cannot - that's a huge problem.  If this particular group is evil and aren't citizens, deport them!  If they are legal citizens and they don't follow regs/specs, don't let them build.  If they are just pricks but not breaking any laws... hey, what can you do?  It's america, and the constitution applies to pricks just as much as nice guys.

[24KT]

Jews never created Ground zero, Islamic extremists did.
No matter what the law says pyschocologically this is a terrible slap in the face of the USA.

No, they just flew in guys to film it.
Guys who incidently were cheering & high 5'ing each other as the buildings collapsed.

I really don't think Americans should worry about a slap in the face,
when it's so bloody obvious they've been horsekicked in the head!