Who here trains to failure and who does not?

[benchmstr]

lmao @ how much im in your head..  what exactly are you bitching about anyways??  muscles respond to increased workload, that means more reps with the same weight or equal reps with more weight. nothing complicated about that.

your mind will be the reason you are never able to compete....sad really...

bench

[tbombz]

your mind will be the reason you are never able to compete....sad really...

bench

i think ill be just fine, thanks for the encouragement tho 

[JP_RC]

i disagree - and so does science.

does high volume, high intensity work - yes certainly.

it works even better with steroid users.

however is it optimal or efficient - no

Actually science agrees and supports the efficiency of high volume training.

[Fatpanda]

Actually science agrees and supports the efficiency of high volume training.

well there are studies - meta analysis too - 4 spring to mind. 2 on strength and 2 on hypertrophy.

however they exclude a vast amount of studies that just so happen to disagree with their claims - either by choice or poor research by the authors.

i can also think of many many studies that claim 1 set is just as effective as 2 or more, for both hypertrophy and strength 

so i guess i should have said 'good science disagrees ' 

you are still wrong however as even the bad studies say moderate volume is more effective than high volume 

[JP_RC]

well there are studies - meta analysis too - 4 spring to mind. 2 on strength and 2 on hypertrophy.

however they exclude a vast amount of studies that just so happen to disagree with their claims - either by choice or poor research by the authors.

i can also think of many many studies that claim 1 set is just as effective as 2 or more, for both hypertrophy and strength 

so i guess i should have said 'good science disagrees ' 

you are still wrong however as even the bad studies say moderate volume is more effective than high volume 

You're right about studies always contradicting each other, but experience also showed me that volume training is the way to go. If low volume works for you, that's fine.

About the studie that showed moderate volume being better than high volume is a tricky one. I mean, what is moderate volume? What is high volume?
The thing is more volume is what's needed for optimal muscle growth, protein synthesis and increased workload capacity. What that may be depends on each individual, but the thing is that those studies show that low volume is not optimal for hypertrophy.

[Fatpanda]

You're right about studies always contradicting each other, but experience also showed me that volume training is the way to go. If low volume works for you, that's fine.

About the studie that showed moderate volume being better than high volume is a tricky one. I mean, what is moderate volume? What is high volume?
The thing is more volume is what's needed for optimal muscle growth, protein synthesis and increased workload capacity. What that may be depends on each individual, but the thing is that those studies show that low volume is not optimal for hypertrophy.

i disagree.

list of importance for hypertrophy/strength:
1. load - the most important aspect to building strength and hypertrophy.
2. frequency - never work same muscle group more than 3 x a week - with numerous studies showing no/little difference between twice and three times per week.
3. volume - only do enough to stimulate the muscle to grow - any more and you are breaking down too much muscle, making it more metabolically costly to rebuild damage, burning excess calories, increasing cortisol, etc etc.


also what is optimal in your eyes ? to me if 1 set provides say 75% of potential strength and mass gains, with a 2nd set providing another 20% and a 3rd providing the last 5 %.

i'd personally only do 1 set, fuck doing 100% more work for a measly extra 20% of the reward, or 200% more work for and extra 25% .

these are made  up numbers - however i have come across 2 studies that discuss numbers regarding how much extra strength/mass gains are obtained by more than 1 set.

[benchmstr]

i think ill be just fine, thanks for the encouragement tho 

trust me bro...i have seen your pics after over a year of AAS use......i wouldnt even call you big for a natural...

bench

[Cleanest Natural]

trust me bro...i have seen your pics after over a year of AAS use......i wouldnt even call you big for a natural...

bench

I'm sure you could post your pics and show us what beasts grace the front line in the law enforcement 

[JP_RC]

i disagree.

list of importance for hypertrophy/strength:
1. load - the most important aspect to building strength and hypertrophy.
2. frequency - never work same muscle group more than 3 x a week - with numerous studies showing no/little difference between twice and three times per week.
3. volume - only do enough to stimulate the muscle to grow - any more and you are breaking down too much muscle, making it more metabolically costly to rebuild damage, burning excess calories, increasing cortisol, etc etc.


also what is optimal in your eyes ? to me if 1 set provides say 75% of potential strength and mass gains, with a 2nd set providing another 20% and a 3rd providing the last 5 %.

i'd personally only do 1 set, fuck doing 100% more work for a measly extra 20% of the reward, or 200% more work for and extra 25% .

these are made  up numbers - however i have come across 2 studies that discuss numbers regarding how much extra strength/mass gains are obtained by more than 1 set.

list of importance for hypertrophy/strength:
1. load - the most important aspect to building strength and hypertrophy.
2. frequency - never work same muscle group more than 3 x a week - with numerous studies showing no/little difference between twice and three times per week.
3. volume - only do enough to stimulate the muscle to grow - any more and you are breaking down too much muscle, making it more metabolically costly to rebuild damage, burning excess calories, increasing cortisol, etc etc.

1. I agree that progressive overload is the most important aspect to muscle growth, but the thing is doing more volume is another form of overload as you know strength gains will have a ceiling.
2. I pretty much agree with the frequency here, I personally like to train each muscle twice a week or twice every 8-10 days.
3. What is also important to know is that volume is another form of increasing overload on the muscle, so in my opinion its not a matter of doing just enough. Overtraining is a big myth in my opinion too.
Doing more volume also increases workload capacity which is important for growth.

also what is optimal in your eyes ? to me if 1 set provides say 75% of potential strength and mass gains, with a 2nd set providing another 20% and a 3rd providing the last 5 %.

i'd personally only do 1 set, fuck doing 100% more work for a measly extra 20% of the reward, or 200% more work for and extra 25% .

these are made  up numbers - however i have come across 2 studies that discuss numbers regarding how much extra strength/mass gains are obtained by more than 1 set.

For me its optimal to do more than 1 work set per exercise/muscle. I tried low volume training in the past and got no results, I just ended with a very poor work capacity and no muscle gains. Then I learned about some studies made that showed that a high volume of work is needed to produce critical concetration of amino acids and subsequent protein synthesis to produce hypertrophy and started increasing my volume of training and the muscle growth gains were noticeable.
I like doing at least 10 work sets per bodypart going as high as 18, how many sets I do per exercise will depened on how many of them I do.

[benchmstr]

I'm sure you could post your pics and show us what beasts grace the front line in the law enforcement 

still stalking me all over the internet, i see.......i am so deep in your head its not even funny...

bench

[Cleanest Natural]

still stalking me all over the internet, i see.......i am so deep in your head its not even funny...

bench

oh yeah... I lose sleep over an annonymous police officer who calls himself "benchmaster" o getbig

[benchmstr]

oh yeah... I lose sleep over an annonymous police officer who calls himself "benchmaster" o getbig

uh hum....."benchmstr"

 

bench

[Cleanest Natural]

uh hum....."benchmstr"

 

bench

[Fatpanda]

3. What is also important to know is that volume is another form of increasing overload on the muscle, so in my opinion its not a matter of doing just enough. Overtraining is a big myth in my opinion too.
Doing more volume also increases workload capacity which is important for growth.

 i disagree - as i stated there is a definite ceiling when it comes to volume - think of the bell curve - very applicable here. (tons of studies back me up here)

For me its optimal to do more than 1 work set per exercise/muscle. I tried low volume training in the past and got no results, I just ended with a very poor work capacity and no muscle gains.
do you realise how ridiculous you sound - you got no results from lifting heavy weight progressively because you only did 1 set    if this is true you must really have fucked up your frequency, caloric intake, intensity,  ( load )


Then I learned about some studies made that showed that a high volume of work is needed to produce critical concentration of amino acids and subsequent protein synthesis to produce hypertrophy and started increasing my volume of training and the muscle growth gains were noticeable.
no, you did not find any such study. working out does not produce critical concentrations of amino acids, you are either lying or very very confused about this topic


I like doing at least 10 work sets per bodypart going as high as 18, how many sets I do per exercise will depened on how many of them I do.
good for you, i'm glad you have found a workout routine you enjoy. however is that routine optimal is another matter. you say you workout twice every 7-10 days - that alone suggests you are overtraining if it is taking you that long to recover between workouts. We clearly have vastly different ideas on frequency as i work the entire body every 48-96 hours max  

[tbombz]

trust me bro...i have seen your pics after over a year of AAS use......i wouldnt even call you big for a natural...

bench

your right.. im tiny.. show me how its done, bench   

[SF1900]

your right.. im tiny.. show me how its done, bench   

Looks like the crystal meth is really helping out 

[Cleanest Natural]

your right.. im tiny.. show me how its done, bench   

looking good tbombz

so tel us ..how do you strech your fascias ? 

[CalvinH]

Not all the time but yes.

[Tito24]

your right.. im tiny.. show me how its done, bench   

from that angle even a concentration camp survivor looks healthy.

[Ursus]

Here are my thoughts.

I think that planned progressive overload is a fantastic thing. E.g I started off on bench 275x5x5 and each time I benched I added one rep. The next day it was 1x6 and 4x5, the next it was 2x6 3x5 etc etc until I got 5x10.

This however took an age. I also found I did not get particularly big on this principle. I often found that planning things too much was almsot negating my gains. There were some exercises where I could pile on the weighta dn I grew very quickly. I was hoever always pretty well rested on this and even the days I felt tired and/or weak I still managed to pull through.

One day I tried teh second biggest DB's in my gym. I only got like 4, 4, 3 with them. However the next day I got 5, 4, 4 etc I almost always gota  rep or 2 on a set or two each week for pretty much half a year. It was great. I could however had microloaded using tiny plates and adjustable DB's. Had I done this I do not think I would be in the strength position I am in now. 2 weeks ago I tried teh biggest DB's in my gym as my primary exercise on shoulders. I got a 2x5 i was fried. Last week I got 7, 7, 6, 5. Today I got 8, 7, 7, 6. Clear progress. This was pretty much taking most sets near or two failure.

I also find that one way to progress when you do not think you can adda  rep anymore on your heaviest set is to do a drop set. E.g I adopty this principle on bench press to great effect. Say i do 220x12 253x10 275x10 297x10 305x8 I may then drop down to a weight such as 286 and rep oyut. The first week I may only get 8. Then I will repeat this drop set each day until I get up to 10 reps. I then find I have increased my strength so I can go a little heavier on my top set.....

[Ursus]

Had to continue here as my text was jumping all over the show.

I do find that this cannot be used too much. I did it on my shoulder press today and done a few unchallenging drop sets after my main BB pressing also. By getting stronger on the big lifts I find that this increases strength in the smaller lifts.

I rarely do drop sets on squats or deads simply as I feel it is dangerous. Espec high rep deadlifts.

Today barbell pressing my 3 heaviest sets were 230lbs x 5 reps. The last day i done 3x6x220. I will add a rep to each set over the coming weeks or sooner if I can until I am at 6-8 reps. This is a way of progressing without feeling like it is too regimented. Sometimes I will keep my heavy sets teh same weight but go slightly heavier on the warm up sets.

As a nattuie I feel that training to failure all the time is counter productive. I do not eat well enough or rest well enough to do it. MAYBE it would work well for me but i am a laid back person who enjoys training and I do not want it to become a chore. I am happy with it beinga  pasttime. My hours of work are not suited to this training either.

Ultimatley I find that since I have adopted training with a few sets to near failure on a few major exercises my gains have been excellent and I have not been overtrianing (I trian 4x week)


I do believe that training in a totally and strictly regimented routine can work for size quite well, no doubt about it. However I feel that the approach works best on strength based objectives. For me I use a little intuition and try to lift heavier for more reps when I can. I hold back when I feel tired (Like I did on Wednesday doing back - chased a pump rather than heavy weights)

1-2 sets of failure and a drop set really improved my training. I think you should give it a ago sometime.

[tbombz]

so goudy, what your saying is, "small and gradual progressive overload is good, but everyonce in a while you should make a big leap up in weight and force yourself to get a few sets" ?? right?

[240 is Back]

Failure trains to 240.

[JP_RC]

i disagree - as i stated there is a definite ceiling when it comes to volume - think of the bell curve - very applicable here. (tons of studies back me up here)

Fair enough, we can disagree here.

do you realise how ridiculous you sound - you got no results from lifting heavy weight progressively because you only did 1 set    if this is true you must really have fucked up your frequency, caloric intake, intensity,  ( load )

I'm just writing about my personal experience with low volume training and the thing is I got no results from it. I just ended up with a very poor work capacity and no gains.
And yes, I got no muscle growth from just 1 set, even when I was getting "stronger". This is why I think volume is important.

no, you did not find any such study. working out does not produce critical concentrations of amino acids, you are either lying or very very confused about this topic

I'm not lying. I think a guy named Behms did this study in 1995 called “Neuromuscular Implications and Applications of Resistance Training”. I don't have the entire study with me right now, but I remember I read it. This is a quote from it:

"Maximum strength training methods with their high intensity resistance but low volume of work do NOT elicit substantial muscle hypertrophy. Therefore a higher volume of work, (greater than 6 reps, with multiple sets) [emphasis and references are his] is needed to ensure a critical concentration of intracellular amino acids to stimulate protein synthesis” (Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 1995: p271)

good for you, i'm glad you have found a workout routine you enjoy. however is that routine optimal is another matter. you say you workout twice every 7-10 days - that alone suggests you are overtraining if it is taking you that long to recover between workouts. We clearly have vastly different ideas on frequency as i work the entire body every 48-96 hours max 

This is the routine that gives me the best results and I don't think I'm overtraining. I can see you do whole body workouts with much higher frequency, I can tell you I tried the Arthur Jones style of low volume whole body workouts three times per week, but they did nothing for me. Not enough volume per bodypart.

[Ursus]

so goudy, what your saying is, "small and gradual progressive overload is good, but everyonce in a while you should make a big leap up in weight and force yourself to get a few sets" ?? right?

Yea something along those lines.

Unless you have a strict %age routine for an upcoming comp/goal then I don't see why you can diverge and have some fun now and again. Small and gradual overload is good but we also sometimes can surprise ourselves by trying something we are not sure of and smoking it. Gives you confidence to keep going on and motivation also.

I think teh big leap up in weight(providing it is not absurdly large) can really stimulate new growth.

Just my $0.02