Author Topic: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense  (Read 2887 times)

kcballer

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3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« on: August 20, 2010, 12:49:07 PM »
This is from a comedy site Cracked.com.  I'm sure some of you have read various articles from them.  Here is one that is unusual for this site but highly entertaining -

I don’t usually write about politics. It’s important, but something I want no part of – kind of like a raw sewage treatment facility. But frankly, I haven’t been this upset in a long time. And it’s due to the logic-hating, herd-mentality rhetoric that some have been flinging in opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque.” For the uninitiated, there are plans to construct an Islamic Community center in lower Manhattan. And, of course, lower Manhattan is where the World Trade Center stood before terrorists destroyed it, thereby murdering 3,000 Americans. I was working in New York City at the time. As was my father. As was my pregnant wife. I remember the day well. And the days that followed. I think most of all, I remember standing on the Staten Island Ferry, coming home with 200 other silent, reverent New Yorkers of every age, race, and religion, as we watched our city still smoldering a full week later. And it is with this backdrop that I can say to every politician spouting off and opposing the construction of this Islamic community center: “Shut up. Go away. You hate America.”

I’m talking about people like professional political tumor, Newt Gingrich, and future worst President ever, Sarah Palin, who have both slammed supporters of the Islamic community center with rhetoric so flawed, I’m afraid even linking to it might impair your computer’s higher functioning circuits. But it’s not just them. Due to the wave of misinformation being spread, apparently 68% of Americans also oppose the mosque.

How did this happen? Well, basically a complacent or a complicit media helped perpetuate three ideas that are either outright lies or intellectually dishonest arguments designed to bring out the very worst in all of us. And as you continue to hear them–and you will–take out this column which you will have already printed and laminated, and recite thusly:

#1 It's Not At Ground Zero

The proposed structure is not on the hallowed ground of the former World Trade Center. It’s at an abandoned and private building blocks away that used to be the Burlington Coat Factory. That means that if every one of the “g’s” that Sarah Palin drops when she’s talkin’ folksy were 10 by10 feet large, you could still stack over 120 of them from Ground Zero to this community center. Easy.

That sort of makes all the difference, doesn’t it? I know, when I first heard they were building a mosque at Ground Zero, I literally said, “What the fuck.” Like out loud and everything. I didn’t even pull a “WTF” despite years of writing for the Internet. That’s because for the last nine years, we New Yorkers have listened to countless proposals and plans and ideas of how to best rebuild the area while honoring the memories of those who died. And suddenly it seemed we were being told, “Yep, it’s all decided. Mosque. We want a mosque here. Just feels right.”

So yeah, of course, no one was on board. That just made no sense. What happened to that proposed waterfall and wall of names? Nothing happened. Because no one was ever building a mosque on that site. It’s just a lie that was told to you by people who wanted you to be afraid, upset, and hurt. People who wanted to manipulate your tender emotions to inspire contempt for the government. It’s about as intellectually dishonest as manipulating debate footage to make it appear that “Drill, baby, drill” is Sarah Palin’s stance on partial birth abortions. It’s just wrong.

And to those who say that any location in lower Manhattan is too close for a Muslim structure, let me remind you that right now, in the shadow of what would be the former World Trade Center, there’s a Halal Meat Hot Truck with a multi-denominational line that wraps around my building every day at lunch time. And I’m positive that’s owned by a Muslim. And I’ve even suffered at his hands. (Spoiler alert: avoid the goat rhoti). Should he move a few more blocks away too? Of course, not. That would just be silly, right? Is it different? Why? Because mosques are religious and the 911 terrorists perverted Islam into something violent and hateful? Guess what? Those knights did the same thing to Christianity for the 300 years of the Crusades, and no one’s saying that churches shouldn’t be built anywhere in … Europe.

#2 It's Not Strictly A Mosque

A mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it, do you? Well, maybe you do. You read about politics on the Internet from a guy who claims not to write about politics, so maybe you’re functionally illiterate. But the point is, you shouldn’t.

But “Islamic Community Center open to the public” doesn’t have the same ability to scare people the way “mosque” does. I mean, you hear “mosque” you think mosquito, you think STING! You hear “mosque” you think “mask,” you think DECEPTION! You hear “community center” you think “OK. One more place I’ll never go.” So, yeah, clearly the decision was made by those who hate you to call this the “Ground Zero Mosque” even though it’s not at Ground Zero and not technically a mosque. Why are we still discussing this? Why haven’t you already asked Sarah Palin if she’s the devil on her Twitter account? Oh, that’s right. Because the devil is supposed to be good at lying.

#3 You Can't Simultaneously Acknowledge A Right And Insist That Your Government Suppress It

But the real reason I’m writing is not just because of people like Sarah Palin, but because of shameful, spineless panderers like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Here’s a statement from each of them designed to give the appearance of being tolerant while adhering to good old-fashioned common sense values:

From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:

“We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”

And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:

While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid “thinks this mosque should be built some place else,” his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.

Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.

You can’t legally stop people from obeying the law.

The Burlington Coat factory is private property. Those who want to build on it are private citizens. They are violating no law in wanting to build a community center. Under what authority do you propose we stop them? There is no “unless you’re a Muslim within X yards of a national tragedy exception” to the free exercise of religion. Do the Gingrichs and Palins and Reids want to start a precedent where you can compel people not to exercise the freedoms guaranteed under our Constitution provided enough people don’t like you?

And what are we saying to Muslims? That if they were good Americans they would willingly give up their rights? I can’t think of anything less American than that? This is America. We do what we want. And all you have to do to have that right is be a citizen here. And if you’re a traitor, well then we will prosecute you for treason and penalize you for taking up arms against the greatest country in the world, but we will NOT start curtailing your freedoms based on mere speculation fueled by lies about what you’re building and where you’re building it.

In the days following 911 it was very popular to say that we couldn’t do anything differently in America or “the terrorists would win.” We can’t stop driving gas guzzling cars. We can’t stop supporting dictators in other parts of the world for financial or political gain. We can’t vote for a Democrat. Most of that was rhetoric. Some of it was probably true. But one thing is definitely true: if we ask our leaders to start dishonoring the freedoms that make this country great, the terrorists surely will have won. And I don’t want to see that. Because unlike those with power and influence who would lie to you, I love America.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/



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Soul Crusher

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 01:15:17 PM »
1.  The landing gear of the plane hit threw two stories of this building, so yes it is ground zero. 

2.  No one is insisting the govt violent their rights.  People are asking them to voluntarily move it.


What a nonsensical article full of strawman bs. 

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 01:23:26 PM »
i bet the dust from the buildings went a 1/2 mile so is that all ground zero ???

kcballer

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 01:24:45 PM »
1.  The landing gear of the plane hit threw two stories of this building, so yes it is ground zero. 

2.  No one is insisting the govt violent their rights.  People are asking them to voluntarily move it.


What a nonsensical article full of strawman bs. 

And why should they give up their right to exercise their freedom?  Is freedom not what we went to war over?  If we can't have freedom for our own citizens then what good are we as a beacon of freedom to the world?
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Soul Crusher

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 01:28:27 PM »
And why should they give up their right to exercise their freedom?  Is freedom not what we went to war over?  If we can't have freedom for our own citizens then what good are we as a beacon of freedom to the world?

Fine, I hope you join my in the exercise of my first amendment right to walk up to obama in front of his kids and call him a lazy N%^& who is a failure and will go down as one of the worst potus ever.   

kcballer

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 01:49:47 PM »
Fine, I hope you join my in the exercise of my first amendment right to walk up to obama in front of his kids and call him a lazy N%^& who is a failure and will go down as one of the worst potus ever.   

Go right ahead.  It would be quite funny to see you get shot cause you're dumb enough to carry while in the president's personal space.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 01:55:56 PM »
Go right ahead.  It would be quite funny to see you get shot cause you're dumb enough to carry while in the president's personal space.

Using your anaolgy - it will be funny when this stupid disgrace gets blown to smitherines by a McVeigh copycat because this imam is dumb enough to knowingly provoke and piss on the graves and burial site of more than 3,000 dead at the hands of muslim terrorists who committed their act in the name of islam and were funded by radical muslim clerics in SA.   

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 02:06:17 PM »
Cliffs notes please...that shit is way too long (no homo)


by the way...remember some asshole was like "Clips Notes"...hahahahah ok that was random

kcballer

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 03:10:23 PM »
Using your anaolgy - it will be funny when this stupid disgrace gets blown to smitherines by a McVeigh copycat because this imam is dumb enough to knowingly provoke and piss on the graves and burial site of more than 3,000 dead at the hands of muslim terrorists who committed their act in the name of islam and were funded by radical muslim clerics in SA.   

Sounds to me like you want to be that guy.  So go ahead hero.  You have more in common with fundamentalists than with those who love freedom. 
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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 03:25:39 PM »
1.  The landing gear of the plane hit threw two stories of this building, so yes it is ground zero. 

2.  No one is insisting the govt violent their rights.  People are asking them to voluntarily move it.


What a nonsensical article full of strawman bs. 

It's not ground zero  ::)

Many who are against it wishes the government would violate their rights. 

The builders of this Muslin CC aren't going to move it.

Arnold jr

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 03:38:44 PM »
The things 333 said are correct, other things to remember:

*There's not a Muslim population living in Lower Manhattan significant enough to even build a mosque hut

*They refuse to show where funding is coming from, guess what, that is a violation of the law and beyond suspicious. If they are peace loving, hand holding, give me a hug and a kiss Muslims, then they should have no problem talking about the funding.

*From the article, the author talks about how the 911 hijackers perverted and twisted a peaceful religion...no they didn't, they carried out their religion in the exact way they are supposed to, Islamic law to the fullest extent, the violence and killing, that is true Islam, it's the so called "Peaceful" Muslims who have perverted their religion and most of them are only lying about the peace part any way.

I swear, it blows my mind, I mean that, it literally blows my mind how so many people live in a fantasy world...I seriously think many people think we're all living in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood of Make Believe. 

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 04:03:38 PM »
I disagree, the Mosque is NOT being built on Ground Zero.  (but it's close enough)

When does a religious population in a given area become prerequisite for building a church?

If showing where the funding is coming from a violation of law why hasn't something been filed by a lawyer to find out where its coming from?  Until then the against the law thing is BS.

Quote
*From the article, the author talks about how the 911 hijackers perverted and twisted a peaceful religion...no they didn't, they carried out their religion in the exact way they are supposed to, Islamic law to the fullest extent, the violence and killing, that is true Islam, it's the so called "Peaceful" Muslims who have perverted their religion and most of them are only lying about the peace part any way.

Any and all religions can be twisted and used to manipulate people.  It has gone on since the beginning of time and is nothing new.  The difference is whether of not a person chooses to allow themselves to be manipulated by it or are intelligent enough to see it.

The 9/11 hijackers were nut jobs. No doubt.  And many of the Muslims in the rural areas of the ME are products of religious manipulation to the extend of creating a near 13th century fanatical culture.  What's been going on since then is a campaign to manipulate people into believing that "most" Muslims are lying about wanting peace and other incorrect stereotypes.   This is want happens in a cultural war.  The worst stories, examples of what happens in large populations of groups of people.  Most of what I've been hearing sounds like Nazi propaganda in the 1930's.  Frankly, its disappointing.  

The Mosque shouldn't be built there for the simple reason that 3000 people died in its name as a result of a cowardly terrorist act(s).  

The people who are to blame are people in NYC who have given the ok.  

Start with Bloomberg.

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 07:47:12 PM »
It's apparently 500 feet from GZ?  That's essentially at GZ, particularly with a 13 story building.

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 08:58:10 PM »
It's apparently 500 feet from GZ?  That's essentially at GZ, particularly with a 13 story building.

Essentially I agree, but its not GZ.  GZ is where the buildings stood.   For me, the distinction is clear.  If they were building it directly on the site where the WTC's stood it would far far far more an outrage and blatant symbolism than where's its being proposed.    Because of this distinction to say it's being built on GZ is very inaccurate.  What it is, (to say its being built on GZ) is blatant propaganda and lots of people are falling for it.  Disappointing. 

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 10:18:55 PM »
Essentially I agree, but its not GZ.  GZ is where the buildings stood.   For me, the distinction is clear.  If they were building it directly on the site where the WTC's stood it would far far far more an outrage and blatant symbolism than where's its being proposed.    Because of this distinction to say it's being built on GZ is very inaccurate.  What it is, (to say its being built on GZ) is blatant propaganda and lots of people are falling for it.  Disappointing. 

It's a distinction without much of a difference.  GZ is where the buildings stood, where they collapsed, other buildings that were affected, not just where the planes hit. 

I don't really consider it propaganda.  Calling it GZ, or 500 feet from GZ, doesn't change the analysis.  At least not for me. 

I agree the outrage would be greater if the mosque was right on top of the old WTC.   

240 is Back

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2010, 11:15:51 PM »
how many feet is the cutoff?.  501?

slippery slope...

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 06:47:34 AM »
Essentially I agree, but its not GZ.  GZ is where the buildings stood.   For me, the distinction is clear.  If they were building it directly on the site where the WTC's stood it would far far far more an outrage and blatant symbolism than where's its being proposed.    Because of this distinction to say it's being built on GZ is very inaccurate.  What it is, (to say its being built on GZ) is blatant propaganda and lots of people are falling for it.  Disappointing.  

See, that's just not possible as NO ONE CAN BUILD THERE. That's the spinster bullshit and you know it. It's not an open field where anyone can pop in and build something. The other buildings around there are already owned. What they are doing is building as close to GZ as they possible can get it.

A piece of landing gear from one of the planes damaged 3 floors of the building they want to build it in so yes, I'd say that it's directly linked to 9/11 and Ground Zero. And no, it's not inaccurate to say that it's being built on GZ. In-fact, the Muslim leading the fucking project has been calling it the "Ground Zero mosque" for MONTHS.

how many feet is the cutoff?.  501?

slippery slope...

Ahh, more 240 spin. The cut off is that a piece of landing gear fell through 3 floors of that building.

And can someone tell me why Imam Rauf, the man helping to lead the charge on this mosque, has spent the last 6 months calling it the Ground Zero mosque?  ::)

But hey, I suppose you guys are more in the know than the man in charge of building this mosque (just kidding, 240 is brain-dead on this issue and nothing more than a spinster shill).

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 08:08:45 AM »
so seriously, if it was 30 feet from the WTC tower, but no wheel hit it, then it would be cool?

Or if it was 2000 feet and some debrits hit it, it's not cool?


This is what I'm talking about.  It's pretty tricky when trying to legislate what is right/wrong.  Don't get me wrong - if they're breaking the law or training bad guys, put them in prison for life, i'm not defending anything that works against the USA. 

But once we give the govt to start playing these technical games, it's only a few years until it's affecting us too

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2010, 08:22:01 AM »
so seriously, if it was 30 feet from the WTC tower, but no wheel hit it, then it would be cool?

Or if it was 2000 feet and some debrits hit it, it's not cool?


This is what I'm talking about.  It's pretty tricky when trying to legislate what is right/wrong.  Don't get me wrong - if they're breaking the law or training bad guys, put them in prison for life, i'm not defending anything that works against the USA.  

But once we give the govt to start playing these technical games, it's only a few years until it's affecting us too

We shouldnt even have to have this discussion if the pofs TAXPAYER FUNDED Imam who claims to want to build bridges and heal , etc etc, would move the damn thing or at least make a few decent gestures towards the families such as possibly include some of their ideas in this thing.  

But no, this vile scumbag and his hag of wife are forcing the issue because of their insistence of stamping on peoples' sensibilities of the fact that 3,000 people share that very area as a grave site and burial place by devotees of islama weho committed the asct in its name along with the funding and approval by many muslims.  

So stop the nonsense 240, its getting very stale.  

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2010, 08:43:51 AM »
It's a distinction without much of a difference.  GZ is where the buildings stood, where they collapsed, other buildings that were affected, not just where the planes hit. 

I don't really consider it propaganda.  Calling it GZ, or 500 feet from GZ, doesn't change the analysis.  At least not for me. 

I agree the outrage would be greater if the mosque was right on top of the old WTC.   

that's the distinction. 

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2010, 08:45:47 AM »
We shouldnt even have to have this discussion if the pofs TAXPAYER FUNDED Imam who claims to want to build bridges and heal , etc etc, would move the damn thing or at least make a few decent gestures towards the families such as possibly include some of their ideas in this thing.  

But no, this vile scumbag and his hag of wife are forcing the issue because of their insistence of stamping on peoples' sensibilities of the fact that 3,000 people share that very area as a grave site and burial place by devotees of islama weho committed the asct in its name along with the funding and approval by many muslims.  

So stop the nonsense 240, its getting very stale.  

These people are clueless to how NYC is. They think that it's possible to get closer than 500 feet on building this mosque. Shows how utterly clueless they are.

Even arguing that because it's not right on top of the WTC (Hint: nothing is getting built there) is beyond the realm of stupidity.

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2010, 08:48:09 AM »
that's the distinction. 

Did you see my photo? ? ? ? ? ?   

This entire area is literally a burial ground for 3000 people at the hands of muslim slime who committed the act in the name of Islam. 


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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2010, 08:49:05 AM »
See, that's just not possible as NO ONE CAN BUILD THERE. That's the spinster bullshit and you know it. It's not an open field where anyone can pop in and build something. The other buildings around there are already owned. What they are doing is building as close to GZ as they possible can get it.

A piece of landing gear from one of the planes damaged 3 floors of the building they want to build it in so yes, I'd say that it's directly linked to 9/11 and Ground Zero. And no, it's not inaccurate to say that it's being built on GZ. In-fact, the Muslim leading the fucking project has been calling it the "Ground Zero mosque" for MONTHS.

What's not possible?  What's spinster bullshit?  I'll tell ya what spinster BS is, saying it's being built on GZ when its clearly not.  

However, saying it's being built on one of the buildings damaged in 9/11 as a result of the attack is accurate.

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2010, 08:50:41 AM »
how many buildings were damaged by debris on 911?

I'm assuming hundreds... that pyroclastic shit cloud went 1/2 mile, didn't it?

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Re: 3 reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate makes no sense
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2010, 08:51:52 AM »
Did you see my photo? ? ? ? ? ?  

This entire area is literally a burial ground for 3000 people at the hands of muslim slime who committed the act in the name of Islam.  




Then shut down the whole island and make it memorial.  

Sorry dude, I try and deal in real terms not blatant spinster propaganda crap.  It's not GZ, get over it already.

What it is, is a building that was damaged as a result of 9/11, not GZ.