Arnoldjr - in regards to Keto dieting?

[Meso_z]

lately ive been searching the boards for "keto" related thread and ive found that you like dieting this way.

im thinking of doing a keto for 2 - 2.5 months to shed some bloat and fat and then swith to carbs..

whats your take on keto?

[Arnold jr]

I think it's a great way to diet, especially if you're trying to get into contest shape.

Did you have a specific question?

[Meso_z]

I think it's a great way to diet, especially if you're trying to get into contest shape.

Did you have a specific question?

i was wondering can you switch for example a source of fat for another?

for instance in the first meal 5 whole eggs and 4 whites..

can i eat 9 whites and add some peanuts for example? since i cant find any omega3 eggs here.

also..i dont like shakes, can i drink liquid eggwhites instead?

thanks.

[Arnold jr]

i was wondering can you switch for example a source of fat for another?

for instance in the first meal 5 whole eggs and 4 whites..

can i eat 9 whites and add some peanuts for example? since i cant find any omega3 eggs here.

also..i dont like shakes, can i drink liquid eggwhites instead?

thanks.

You could add in nuts with egg whites but I'd stick with almonds and cashews instead of peanuts. Also, if you're going by the meal that is 5 whole eggs and 4 egg whites, if you're going to drop the yokes and add in nuts instead, you'll need to add in extra egg whites. For example:

5 whole egg + 4 egg whites = appx 50g of protein
to get the same amount of protein from egg whites you'd need to eat about 15 egg whites or 2 cups of liquid egg whites.

You don't have to drink shakes, you can substitute in other meals, you can drink egg whites or simply eat another meal of chicken and nuts or steak and salad, etc.

Omega-3 eggs, pretty much every store carries these, Kroger, Publix, and Wal-Mart all carry them. They may not be called "Omega-3 eggs" but just look on the box to see if the omega-3 fat is added in, it may not be listed in the name of the egg on the top of the box.

[tbombz]

meso- whats the purpouse of eating fat beyond a small amount of essential fats, extra fats dont do anything positive for you. now, throwing in one tablespoon of extra vrgin olive oil can be beneficial. or any other healthy fat. but there is no reason to eat a bunch of fat every meal, all that does is take the place of bodyfat. (instead of burnign bodyfat, your burning dietary fat).

the point of dieting is get yoru body to use body fat. before your body will use bodyfat, its going to burn off fat from your diet.  elminate the fats from your diet and your body will be forced to use body fat- unless your eating a bunch of carbs or an excessive amount of protein.
 

low carb diets work great for burning fat. reduce yoru carbs, and your body has to use body fat for fuel. it makes no sense to replace the carbs you remove with fat. that defeats the purpouse of going low carb.


instead of doing the keto diet, go low carb AND low fat- this way your body has to burn body fat.  just make sur eyour eating sufficient protien (1 gram per pound lean bodyweight-no more, no less)...   and dont let glycogen levels fall to zero. when glycogen falls to zero, you cant go low fat and low carb because youll start to eat muscle, even with sufficient protein. (you could go excessive protein and avoid the musle loss but that is not optimal).

theres a couple options- low fat/low carb all day long except for pre/post workout carbs. or you can go low fat/low carb for a few days at a time, then throw in one high carb day. both methods force your body to burn body fat without ever experiencing zero glycogen (which is harmful for many reasons)


i can go into more detail about the theory behind dieting/fat loss is necessary.

[Meso_z]

meso- whats the purpouse of eating fat beyond a small amount of essential fats, extra fats dont do anything positive for you. now, throwing in one tablespoon of extra vrgin olive oil can be beneficial. or any other healthy fat. but there is no reason to eat a bunch of fat every meal, all that does is take the place of bodyfat. (instead of burnign bodyfat, your burning dietary fat).

the point of dieting is get yoru body to use body fat. before your body will use bodyfat, its going to burn off fat from your diet.  elminate the fats from your diet and your body will be forced to use body fat- unless your eating a bunch of carbs or an excessive amount of protein.
 

low carb diets work great for burning fat. reduce yoru carbs, and your body has to use body fat for fuel. it makes no sense to replace the carbs you remove with fat. that defeats the purpouse of going low carb.


instead of doing the keto diet, go low carb AND low fat- this way your body has to burn body fat.  just make sur eyour eating sufficient protien (1 gram per pound lean bodyweight-no more, no less)...   and dont let glycogen levels fall to zero. when glycogen falls to zero, you cant go low fat and low carb because youll start to eat muscle, even with sufficient protein. (you could go excessive protein and avoid the musle loss but that is not optimal).

theres a couple options- low fat/low carb all day long except for pre/post workout carbs. or you can go low fat/low carb for a few days at a time, then throw in one high carb day. both methods force your body to burn body fat without ever experiencing zero glycogen (which is harmful for many reasons)


i can go into more detail about the theory behind dieting/fat loss is necessary.

thanks tbombz but i would like to try a keto diet for maybe 2 months....experiment with it to shed some fat fast and then i would switch back to a carb diet..

[Meso_z]

You could add in nuts with egg whites but I'd stick with almonds and cashews instead of peanuts. Also, if you're going by the meal that is 5 whole eggs and 4 egg whites, if you're going to drop the yokes and add in nuts instead, you'll need to add in extra egg whites. For example:

5 whole egg + 4 egg whites = appx 50g of protein
to get the same amount of protein from egg whites you'd need to eat about 15 egg whites or 2 cups of liquid egg whites.

You don't have to drink shakes, you can substitute in other meals, you can drink egg whites or simply eat another meal of chicken and nuts or steak and salad, etc.

Omega-3 eggs, pretty much every store carries these, Kroger, Publix, and Wal-Mart all carry them. They may not be called "Omega-3 eggs" but just look on the box to see if the omega-3 fat is added in, it may not be listed in the name of the egg on the top of the box.

how about training, is it nessesary to go low volume as dave suggests?

i like high volume training and i was thinking if i could AVOID cardio at all costs but keep the high volume in my workouts.

[Arnold jr]

how about training, is it nessesary to go low volume as dave suggests?

i like high volume training and i was thinking if i could AVOID cardio at all costs but keep the high volume in my workouts.

You can try it and you might be able to pull it off for a wk or so but that'll probably be it. IMO, you're going to risk burning a lot of muscle if you do it for an extended amount of time. If you're following a keto diet, if you're following the Dave version, you'll have a limited amount of glycogen in your system each workout and you're not going to be able to blast through any marathon sessions, yes you can force yourself through them but your body is going to pull glycogen from somewhere...somewhere being from your muscle tissue.


Tbombz: The idea behind Keto dieting is to get your body used to relying on fat for fuel instead of glycogen. No carbs to pull from for energy and your body is forced to pull energy from fats. Now, if you're eating too much fat, then yes, your body will use the energy of that fat in those foods and you won't burn as much body fat. But if you take in enough, the right amounts, your body will get used to burning fats for fuel and will tap into your body fat stores for more energy.

[dustin]

You can try it and you might be able to pull it off for a wk or so but that'll probably be it. IMO, you're going to risk burning a lot of muscle if you do it for an extended amount of time. If you're following a keto diet, if you're following the Dave version, you'll have a limited amount of glycogen in your system each workout and you're not going to be able to blast through any marathon sessions, yes you can force yourself through them but your body is going to pull glycogen from somewhere...somewhere being from your muscle tissue.


Tbombz: The idea behind Keto dieting is to get your body used to relying on fat for fuel instead of glycogen. No carbs to pull from for energy and your body is forced to pull energy from fats. Now, if you're eating too much fat, then yes, your body will use the energy of that fat in those foods and you won't burn as much body fat. But if you take in enough, the right amounts, your body will get used to burning fats for fuel and will tap into your body fat stores for more energy.

Yup. Stoke the fire without smothering it. I think the fats mentioned are a little high as well and would probably lower them a bit. Otherwise agree in full.

[tbombz]

Tbombz: The idea behind Keto dieting is to get your body used to relying on fat for fuel instead of glycogen. No carbs to pull from for energy and your body is forced to pull energy from fats. Now, if you're eating too much fat, then yes, your body will use the energy of that fat in those foods and you won't burn as much body fat. But if you take in enough, the right amounts, your body will get used to burning fats for fuel and will tap into your body fat stores for more energy.

  read the bolded section. read it again. read it once more.

eating fat doesnt do anything to speed up fat burning, it only slows it down.

[flinstones1]

Tbombz if someone only eats one gram of protein per pound of bw, and is only eating carbs pre and post workout, without any fats, on a cutting diet the total calorie amount would be like 1500. and they would be a disaster as far as muscle loss.

Here is what frank mcgrath's pre contest diet was for example. Obviously hes huge but still it doesnt have 2000 cals...

Meal One:
- 2-3 cups oatmeal
- 12-16 large egg whites
 
Meal Two:
- 16-20 oz. ground eye round
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Three:
- 12 oz. chicken breast
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Four:
- 12 oz. chicken breast
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Five:
- 16-20 oz. ground eye round
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Six:
- 12-16 egg whites
 

[Arnold jr]

  read the bolded section. read it again. read it once more.

eating fat doesnt do anything to speed up fat burning, it only slows it down.

So how is it that the best shape I've ever gotten into in my life was following a keto diet? And yes, I've done several diets prior that were along the lines of what you prefer.

How is it I've done contest prep for a few hundred competitors and they all stood on stage in the best shape possible?

How is it a guy like Dave P. has done contest prep for even more people and they've all stood on stage in the best shape possible?

If a keto diet slows down fat burning, how is it the lowest body fat I've ever reached with the most muscle left on my frame was through a keto diet? How come every time I've dieted, I had to go below 190lbs on a low carb diet if I wanted to get under 6%? How come I could stay right at or very close to 200lbs and be in the low 4% to high 3% if keto diets didn't work well?

[Meso_z]

So how is it that the best shape I've ever gotten into in my life was following a keto diet? And yes, I've done several diets prior that were along the lines of what you prefer.

How is it I've done contest prep for a few hundred competitors and they all stood on stage in the best shape possible?

How is it a guy like Dave P. has done contest prep for even more people and they've all stood on stage in the best shape possible?

If a keto diet slows down fat burning, how is it the lowest body fat I've ever reached with the most muscle left on my frame was through a keto diet? How come every time I've dieted, I had to go below 190lbs on a low carb diet if I wanted to get under 6%? How come I could stay right at or very close to 200lbs and be in the low 4% to high 3% if keto diets didn't work well?

Arnold, how about adding carbs back when finishing a keto?

should you add them slowly?

[Arnold jr]

Arnold, how about adding carbs back when finishing a keto?

should you add them slowly?

Yes, add them in slowly. What I've done in the past when adding carbs back in is I'll usually keep it at 25g-30g of carbs per meal in about 3-4 of my meals to start out and slowly add in more as my body gets used to it. The easiest thing to do is to simply throw in some oats throughout your day and a post workout shake with waxy maze and then go from there.

[Meso_z]

just too many q's lol 

i was wondering whats the difference between palumbos keto and the "anabolic diet" by pasquale? its a keto too, but instead of having a single cheat meal he takes the whole weekend to carbload.

Do you find for example "2 burgers" filling you in that cheat that palumbo reccommends? ive read many guys need more than 2 burgers or a small cheat. im talking about quantity in a sitting.

[Arnold jr]

just too many q's lol  

i was wondering whats the difference between palumbos keto and the "anabolic diet" by pasquale? its a keto too, but instead of having a single cheat meal he takes the whole weekend to carbload.

Do you find for example "2 burgers" filling you in that cheat that palumbo reccommends? ive read many guys need more than 2 burgers or a small cheat. im talking about quantity in a sitting.

I'm not all that familiar with the other diet you mentioned.

One thing to keep in mind, it takes a few days to get into ketosis, having one cheat meal will not throw you out of ketosis, carb loading all wkend will, so then after the wkend is over, you have to spend the next few days getting back into ketosis.

The general rule of thumb IMO should be to stick to one cheat meal but as always, there are exceptions. I have had a few guys over the yrs with insanely fast metabolisms and at certain points in the diet I'll have them eat two meals during the wk that are not part of the diet, their standard cheat meal, say on Friday or Saturday night and on Tues or Wed a "Clean Cheat" just a good meal, non-fried and no deserts/sugars...the standard weekly cheat meal though is whatever they want. I won't have them do it every wk but as needed. Impossible to say if you'd be one of the guys that benefits from this, the only way I could answer that is if you were one of my clients...not that I'm being a jerk, it's just not possible to answer without knowing how your body works and getting accustomed. I've heard Dave say this a million times, the diet itself, anyone can follow it, it's the manipulation of the diet for each person and that final stretch of the diet, that's what you're paying for...when you're following this kind of diet, learning how to mix in the days of no fats, yes this diet has days when you eat no fat, you eat nothing but protein and select green vegetables, knowing how to implement cardio correctly for your body with the diet, utilizing cheat meals correctly for your diet, knowing when to stop, etc.

As for how much food is enough...when I get into the keto diet, my stomach shrinks so fast in the beginning I really can't eat that much food before I'm full but as the diet goes on my metabolism gets going so fast that it's as if the food is burning up before it even hits my stomach. For most people, I tell them to simply have a good meal of whatever they want and a desert. Some guys I have them eat all they want for one hour once a wk...I don't mean they gorge for an hour but they have their meal and if a few minutes later they want some more, go for it.

Here's you a sample of an insane cheat meal I had once. I had been on a keto diet for roughly 14 or so wks, cardio 2x per day almost the entire time, weight training 5x/wk and I was working two jobs, one was outside in the dead heat of summer. By those last wks of the diet, during my cheat meal I couldn't get enough to eat to save my life, the last cheat meal I had on that diet was as follows:

IHOP
1 steak omelet
6 pancakes
6 pieces of bacon
6 cheese sticks
2 glasses of milk
About half of the strawberry crepes the girl I was with was eating
1 pint of ice cream

Ate all of that in about a 35-40min period. When I got done eating I started sweating like I was running sprints in 100 degree heat and my heart was racing. I checked my pulse sitting in the booth at IHOP, sitting still it was going almost 140bpm. I kind of freaked out, pulled out my phone and sent Dave a message. He laughed and said don't eat that much again but not to worry about it, he said "Your metabolism is just kicking into high gear" my body was burning the food so fast it was causing this reaction...he said that in 15 or 20 minutes it'd probably stop but that I'd be starving again but no more food for me...he was right, in less than a half an hour I was so hungry I felt like I hadn't eaten in two or three days. Moral of the story, I don't know if there is one but it's a good story

[Meso_z]

I'm not all that familiar with the other diet you mentioned.

One thing to keep in mind, it takes a few days to get into ketosis, having one cheat meal will not throw you out of ketosis, carb loading all wkend will, so then after the wkend is over, you have to spend the next few days getting back into ketosis.

The general rule of thumb IMO should be to stick to one cheat meal but as always, there are exceptions. I have had a few guys over the yrs with insanely fast metabolisms and at certain points in the diet I'll have them eat two meals during the wk that are not part of the diet, their standard cheat meal, say on Friday or Saturday night and on Tues or Wed a "Clean Cheat" just a good meal, non-fried and no deserts/sugars...the standard weekly cheat meal though is whatever they want. I won't have them do it every wk but as needed. Impossible to say if you'd be one of the guys that benefits from this, the only way I could answer that is if you were one of my clients...not that I'm being a jerk, it's just not possible to answer without knowing how your body works and getting accustomed. I've heard Dave say this a million times, the diet itself, anyone can follow it, it's the manipulation of the diet for each person and that final stretch of the diet, that's what you're paying for...when you're following this kind of diet, learning how to mix in the days of no fats, yes this diet has days when you eat no fat, you eat nothing but protein and select green vegetables, knowing how to implement cardio correctly for your body with the diet, utilizing cheat meals correctly for your diet, knowing when to stop, etc.

As for how much food is enough...when I get into the keto diet, my stomach shrinks so fast in the beginning I really can't eat that much food before I'm full but as the diet goes on my metabolism gets going so fast that it's as if the food is burning up before it even hits my stomach. For most people, I tell them to simply have a good meal of whatever they want and a desert. Some guys I have them eat all they want for one hour once a wk...I don't mean they gorge for an hour but they have their meal and if a few minutes later they want some more, go for it.

Here's you a sample of an insane cheat meal I had once. I had been on a keto diet for roughly 14 or so wks, cardio 2x per day almost the entire time, weight training 5x/wk and I was working two jobs, one was outside in the dead heat of summer. By those last wks of the diet, during my cheat meal I couldn't get enough to eat to save my life, the last cheat meal I had on that diet was as follows:

IHOP
1 steak omelet
6 pancakes
6 pieces of bacon
6 cheese sticks
2 glasses of milk
About half of the strawberry crepes the girl I was with was eating
1 pint of ice cream

Ate all of that in about a 35-40min period. When I got done eating I started sweating like I was running sprints in 100 degree heat and my heart was racing. I checked my pulse sitting in the booth at IHOP, sitting still it was going almost 140bpm. I kind of freaked out, pulled out my phone and sent Dave a message. He laughed and said don't eat that much again but not to worry about it, he said "Your metabolism is just kicking into high gear" my body was burning the food so fast it was causing this reaction...he said that in 15 or 20 minutes it'd probably stop but that I'd be starving again but no more food for me...he was right, in less than a half an hour I was so hungry I felt like I hadn't eaten in two or three days. Moral of the story, I don't know if there is one but it's a good story

the same EXACT thing has happened to me twice, and it lasted for a day each. scary thing for sure. my hr was 110-145 all those hours... it made me happy somehow thinking im burning the food like crazy but it was scary as hell too thinking "ok, enough fun, when will this shit stop?  " 

[tbombz]

your over estimating your calorie needs r underestimating your bodies ability to burn off bodyfat. your body has no problems with burning off body fat, as long as your eating 1g protein per lb lean bodyweight your not going to lose anymuscle. even with zero carbs and fats all day, you still would be eating more than enough protein to cover all gluconegensis needs. you just need to make sure that you never allow glycogen levels to get to zero.  frank mcgrath might eat that, alot of ros diet on more food than that, but they are already lean, and already massive, and are coming down slowly while trying to maintain 220-250lbs of pure muscle mass.. which is a completely different ball game than maintaining 180-200lbs of lean mass. but even stil, if the pro was to eat 1 gram per lb lean bodyweight, and made sure to rotate in carbs often enough to avoid glycogen levels 4reaching zero, they would never lose muscle.

Tbombz if someone only eats one gram of protein per pound of bw, and is only eating carbs pre and post workout, without any fats, on a cutting diet the total calorie amount would be like 1500. and they would be a disaster as far as muscle loss.

Here is what frank mcgrath's pre contest diet was for example. Obviously hes huge but still it doesnt have 2000 cals...

Meal One:
- 2-3 cups oatmeal
- 12-16 large egg whites
 
Meal Two:
- 16-20 oz. ground eye round
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Three:
- 12 oz. chicken breast
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Four:
- 12 oz. chicken breast
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Five:
- 16-20 oz. ground eye round
- 1 large yam
 
Meal Six:
- 12-16 egg whites
 

So how is it that the best shape I've ever gotten into in my life was following a keto diet? And yes, I've done several diets prior that were along the lines of what you prefer.

How is it I've done contest prep for a few hundred competitors and they all stood on stage in the best shape possible?

How is it a guy like Dave P. has done contest prep for even more people and they've all stood on stage in the best shape possible?

If a keto diet slows down fat burning, how is it the lowest body fat I've ever reached with the most muscle left on my frame was through a keto diet? How come every time I've dieted, I had to go below 190lbs on a low carb diet if I wanted to get under 6%? How come I could stay right at or very close to 200lbs and be in the low 4% to high 3% if keto diets didn't work well?

calorie defecit + sufficient protein= fat loss and muscle retention. regardless of fat/carb content. your fat loss is dictated by calorie levell. you needed to go low carb because you needed to go less calories.  dave p doesnt get anyone in the best shape of their life  keto doesnt "slow fat burning", eating calories does. whether fat or carbs. eating carbs at certain times makes sense- boost insulin (pre-post workout), refill glycogen (post workout and re-feed days.) eating fats, beyond a small amount, doesnt make any sense as they provide no benefit but a source of calories.

[delta9mda]

tbombz, i like you and all that (no homo) but you are a young buck and you need to realize you dont know everything but you can / will learn.