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Author Topic: The Case for KB Gold aka Karatbars  (Read 20098 times)
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« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2010, 01:30:53 AM »

Just like last year, the metal prices are going to continue higher.  It really doesn’t surprise me that both of the metals are in the process of taking out their previous highs, both gold and silver remain relatively undervalued.  Gold and silver are the pinnacle of money and this is becoming increasingly apparent to investors around the world.

There are really two factors that are driving the precious metals markets higher:

First, quantitative easing is having its expected effect.  QE is debasing the purchasing power of the dollar, and that is causing gold and metals prices to rise.  The second factor is the ongoing demand for physical metals in preference to any paper substitutes.  I think what is likely to unfold in the first half of 2011 is another Lehman type of event, but the net effect will be somewhat different.  Instead of a rush for liquidity, the primary objective will be a rush to safety and that means avoiding counter-party risk.  The best way to do that is to own physical metal.

I think the key point is that the serial bailouts of banks and governments that we have been seeing for the past couple of years is going to come to a head in the first half of 2011.  To me that means serious financial repercussions, and people should be focusing on safety.  Therefore we need gold and silver now more than ever.

Whether gold breaks out this week or next is irrelevant, it will happen soon enough.  Silver has already achieved the $30 target.  The $1,500 target on gold should be achieved in short order.

This breakout was inevitable, the fact that it is taking place before the end of the year just illustrates the strength of both the gold and silver markets.  Remember, bull markets always surprise on the upside.  The fact that end of the year strength has taken some market participants by surprise, this is just textbook action inside of a secular bull market.  For those of you who have exchanged fiat for precious metals...enjoy the ride!
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« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2010, 03:43:22 AM »

Everything gold is new again
By Shayne McGuire
Newsweek, New York
Wednesday, December 29, 2010

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/12/29/everything-gold-is-new-again.html

Gold used to be regarded as an investment for losers -- for the crazies forever expecting the financial apocalypse.

To the great economist John Maynard Keynes, it was a "barbarous relic" of a primeval economic past. Many people have abandoned that lousy stereotype, now that the debt-driven bubbles in stocks and real estate have burst.

Following the collapse of the world's largest bank, the Royal Bank of Scotland, and the largest insurer, American Insurance Group, among many other notable institutions now owned and directed by Western governments, people have come to understand the need for time-proven financial insurance that can insulate their wealth from government and financial firms. And there's only one viable and liquid investment that enables people to pull their wealth out of the financial system: gold.

Buying gold has been the best method for shorting the government. Betting against government -- that is, on a sudden, sharp rise in inflation -- has strong odds in the midst of surging government deficits.

Hyperinflation is fortunately a rare event, and it is unlikely to emerge at present. But consider that all 30 documented cases of hyperinflation -- that is, a situation where prices rise by at least 50 percent per month -- have been caused by deficits that got out of control. Hyperinflation invariably emerges in a deflationary environment of weak economic activity, such as the one that now threatens the United States, European nations, and Japan. It can erupt when the public grows wary of the money being printed in growing quantities by monetary authorities, which are forced to buy -- to "monetize," in the financial vernacular -- a surging supply of government bonds that the markets no longer all want to buy.

Every currency in history has eventually fallen against gold—most dramatically in times like these, times of surging liabilities and an increasing inability to meet them. Gold is the only credible currency whose quantity cannot be expanded at will to meet the spending needs of governments in distress. By its very nature it remains scarce and rises in value as the supply of paper money grows. And I think it's safe to say that following the most dramatic credit crisis since the Great Depression -- one that is continuing to produce ripple effects, like events in Greece that are broadening into Europe itself -- we are likely to see historic investment shifts that will provide great opportunities.

One major beneficiary will be gold. I strongly believe that present financial conditions are about to transform the investment strategies of the world's largest investment funds in a way that will cause gold to surge substantially higher.

To understand why, consider present asset allocation at some of the world's largest investment funds. Pension funds, like the one I work for, have a significant effect on the world's markets, since they collectively manage $24 trillion. But gold plays a negligible role in their asset allocations.

Teacher Retirement System of Texas, whose GBI Gold Fund I manage, probably holds a larger percentage of assets in gold than any other large ($10 billion and higher) pension fund in the world, but our holdings in the precious metal are modest in comparison with any major type of asset like stocks and bonds. And so it is with other pension funds.

Since commodities typically represent around 3 percent of a typical fund's total assets, and the precious metal makes up less than 5 percent of commodity allocation, that makes gold only 0.15 percent of a fund's total assets. Add in the value of gold-mining stocks and precious-metals exchange-traded funds (maybe another 0.15 percent of total assets, at most), and a typical pension fund holds less than a third of 1 percent in gold -- that is to say, virtually nothing.

This is remarkable considering the tremendous diversification benefits the metal can provide for an investment portfolio.

Over the past decade, stocks were down 24 percent while gold rose 280 percent, a fact that would have benefited any fund with a significant gold investment. Gold was beating stocks even during the 2002–07 stock-market rally. But most financial professionals today have never considered gold seriously as a major investment. Since it performed so poorly during the equities and bonds boom of the 1980s and 1990s -- when most financial leaders today were moving up the ladder -- many nurse a lingering sense that gold will never make sense as an investment.

But suddenly the financial industry is being forced to think long and hard about gold. Surging public debt in many of the world's largest economies may be about to push the global government-bond market into a period of significant turmoil. If some part of the world's $30 trillion in sovereign debt could be dumped by the world's pension funds, insurance companies, banks, and individual investors, then where will that money flow to? Stocks? Real estate?

Since pension funds already have high exposure to stocks and other assets like real estate and private equity, it seems reasonable to expect that some fraction of that capital -- perhaps as much as $500 billion or more -- could eventually flow into a time-tested real asset: gold. Most funds would practically be starting from zero, considering the low percentage of total assets the metal represents today.

The effect of suddenly moving a substantial amount of investment money into precious metals was best described in a telephone conversation I had with an industry expert. He said it would be like shoving an elephant into a mailbox.

At $1,300 an ounce, all the gold in the world -- all the jewelry, coins, bars, molars, and church art -- is worth an estimated $6.5 trillion. But the vast majority of global gold, like the ring on my finger, is not freely traded. In fact, perhaps only 5 percent of all physical gold actually trades each year, which would make the investment gold market around $320 billion. The mining industry produced around 2,500 metric tons of gold in 2009, worth around $80 billion at the average price for the year. A little over half of every year's gold production is used for jewelry and industry, so less than $40 billion was available to the global investment community. That's equivalent to about 20 days of trading in shares of Google -- a single stock on the American market.

With these numbers, a large shift of funds into gold would cause it to rise sharply and fast. If it rose from the minuscule part it represents in the world's largest portfolios today to just 1 or 2 percent of global assets under management, the price increase would be substantial. A rise to $10,000 an ounce is not out of the question. It wouldn't be the first time gold has risen in such a way: The price of gold jumped 23-fold in the nine years ending in 1980. And at that time there was no question about the solvency of the U.S. government nor about the health of the banking system.

Buying gold -- that is, speculating that a rock will rise in value -- is a somewhat unsettling proposition for a 21st-century investor. But we've been here before. Many times throughout history, governments across the world have driven their countries to the brink of ruin in the name of "saving the economy" by printing money to cover climbing public expenditures. In times like these, decisions regarding what percentage of wealth to hold in stocks versus bonds should be considered alongside the questions "How much money do I want to have in the financial system itself?" and "Am I adequately protected from government errors that could harm my wealth?"

Today's situation is singularly dire, but it won't last. Gold will never outperform stocks and bonds over the long run, because it does not grow or produce a cash flow. But in light of the challenges facing most other investment classes at present, investors should think carefully about gold.

There are no reliable models to determine if it is "overvalued." What if the world's investors decided to transfer 3 to 5 percent of their wealth out of cash and into hard money? Considering that only 0.6 percent of global financial assets is currently held in the metal, such a movement could push gold prices into the tens of thousands of dollars per ounce. But if we reached that point, would it finally mean that gold had become insanely expensive—or simply that the world had less faith in the printed paper debentures of profligate governments? Which currency is more trustworthy? Which one is the real money?

-----

Shayne McGuire is the head of global research for and manages the $500 million GBI Gold Fund for Teacher Retirement System of Texas, one of the world's largest pension funds. This essay was adapted from his latest book, "Hard Money: Taking Gold to a Higher Investment Level."

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« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2010, 09:59:59 AM »

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« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2010, 10:04:59 AM »

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« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2010, 10:03:21 AM »

Phew! That's a relief! I thought you were going to ask me to name them.  Smiley

I use KB not so much as a vehicle for making money, but rather as a vehicle for preserving the value of the money I already have. For me it's not about speculating about an increase in the value of GOLD. The value of gold remains constant. The real fluctuating factor is the value of FIAT currencies. I'm using precious metals as a store of value, because every country on the planet appears to be in a race to devalue their currencies. So, when we see an increase in the price of gold, ...it is not the value of gold increasing, ...but rather a reflection of the decrease in the value of the FIAT currency relative to gold.

As for how I make money with KB, I earn a referral fee of up to $900 USD for anyone I refer to KB who opens and funds a FREE savings account, plus up to 5.5% of all subsequent deposits  

Yes.

I hope that was concise enough.  Cheesy

the question i wanted a concise answer to was how you make money off of this.  and it was, thanks.

what expenses you have in doing business with this company?



can you also address this post from the talkgold website that says that kb gold is a poor investment?  his figures are from april



 Re: KB Gold - Goldfromkb.com: Very poor "investment"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are today's prices for puchase/sell back price of gold at KB Gold ( http:/www.gold-kb.com/ ):

Quote:
Purchase price for 1g: 41,13 EUR/g*
Sell back price for 1g: 31,80 EUR/g*
.....
* Purchase price of KB gold over 3.000 EUR or when the savings in gold achive the value of 3.000 EUR. Purchase price for 1g of KB gold is 42,40 EUR and sale back price for other type of gold is 28,35 EUR.
.....  

If you purchase 3000 EUR worth of gold from this company, and want at some time to convert the gold back to money, you have at once lost 22.7% of the money you used to purchase gold.
If you have puchased gold for less than 3000 EUR from the company, your immediate loss is 33.1% of your invested money.

For comparison:

Spot price of gold on the world market: Approx. 847 EUR per troy ounce (31.1 gram) => 27.2 EUR/gram

For ordinary people who want to invest in gold, the most practical option is probably to buy gold coins, like e.g. Krugerrands or Canadian Maple Leaf. These coins are sold by numerous vendors, and contain 1 troy ounce (31.1 gram) of pure gold.
Yesterday's price of Krugerrands or Maple Leaf gold coins ( http://www.usagold.com/gold/price.html ):
1200.96 USD or 882.09 EUR, i.e. 28.36 EUR/gram.


To sum up:
If you purchase gold for more than 3000 EUR from KB Gold, you will pay the following excess prices:
- 29.3% above the sell-back price to the company.
- 51% above the world market gold price.
- 45% above the gold price for coins like e.g. Krugerrands.

If you purchase gold for less than 3000 EUR from KB Gold, you will pay the following excess prices:
- 49.5% above the sell-back price to the company.
- 55.9% above the world market gold price.
- 49.5% above the gold price for coins like e.g. Krugerrands.


In addition you have the uncertainty of leaving your gold in the custody of a company with unknown credibility, which does not provide its business address on its web pages, and which tries to give the impression that it is a German or Swiss company, while in reality it is located in Slovenia.
If this company should go ad undas for some reason, what is then the probability of recovering your gold puchased at excess price?

No, if you want to invest in gold, it is much better to buy gold coins like e.g. Krugerrand or Maple Leaf, and to store them in a safe at home or in a safe deposit box at your bank!

_____

if these figures were accurate and that is the way kb does business wouldn't it be much better for the individual to just purchase gold and hold it themselves?
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« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2010, 05:33:03 PM »

Boo-nasty i posted how this was a scam a few months back. 30%+ spread on the bid/ask which is highway robbery...


Best case you only lose the spread (30%+_ currently) However, it's a bucket shop and the firm can move buy back price when they want to.

Worst case you lose everything...
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« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2011, 07:14:05 AM »

the question i wanted a concise answer to was how you make money off of this.  and it was, thanks.

Glad I could help clarify.

Quote
what expenses you have in doing business with this company?

Any expenses involved with regards to using KB as a business vehicle would be completely discretionary.
Unlike other programs which are essentially 'pay-to-play' there are no costs associated with becoming a KB partner or setting up an account with KB. There are no enrollment fees or website fees etc. It is FREE.

Quote
can you also address this post from the talkgold website that says that kb gold is a poor investment?  his figures are from april

 Re: KB Gold - Goldfromkb.com: Very poor "investment"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are today's prices for puchase/sell back price of gold at KB Gold ( http:/www.gold-kb.com/ ):

Quote:
Purchase price for 1g: 41,13 EUR/g*
Sell back price for 1g: 31,80 EUR/g*
.....
* Purchase price of KB gold over 3.000 EUR or when the savings in gold achive the value of 3.000 EUR. Purchase price for 1g of KB gold is 42,40 EUR and sale back price for other type of gold is 28,35 EUR.
.....  

If you purchase 3000 EUR worth of gold from this company, and want at some time to convert the gold back to money, you have at once lost 22.7% of the money you used to purchase gold.
If you have puchased gold for less than 3000 EUR from the company, your immediate loss is 33.1% of your invested money.

For comparison:

Spot price of gold on the world market: Approx. 847 EUR per troy ounce (31.1 gram) => 27.2 EUR/gram

For ordinary people who want to invest in gold, the most practical option is probably to buy gold coins, like e.g. Krugerrands or Canadian Maple Leaf. These coins are sold by numerous vendors, and contain 1 troy ounce (31.1 gram) of pure gold.
Yesterday's price of Krugerrands or Maple Leaf gold coins ( http://www.usagold.com/gold/price.html ):
1200.96 USD or 882.09 EUR, i.e. 28.36 EUR/gram.


To sum up:
If you purchase gold for more than 3000 EUR from KB Gold, you will pay the following excess prices:
- 29.3% above the sell-back price to the company.
- 51% above the world market gold price.
- 45% above the gold price for coins like e.g. Krugerrands.

If you purchase gold for less than 3000 EUR from KB Gold, you will pay the following excess prices:
- 49.5% above the sell-back price to the company.
- 55.9% above the world market gold price.
- 49.5% above the gold price for coins like e.g. Krugerrands.


In addition you have the uncertainty of leaving your gold in the custody of a company with unknown credibility, which does not provide its business address on its web pages, and which tries to give the impression that it is a German or Swiss company, while in reality it is located in Slovenia.
If this company should go ad undas for some reason, what is then the probability of recovering your gold puchased at excess price?

No, if you want to invest in gold, it is much better to buy gold coins like e.g. Krugerrand or Maple Leaf, and to store them in a safe at home or in a safe deposit box at your bank!

_____

if these figures were accurate and that is the way kb does business wouldn't it be much better for the individual to just purchase gold and hold it themselves?

While I appreciate the concern, I cannot possibly account for some anonymous poster's opinion.
Opinions are like belly buttons... everybody has one.  Smiley That would be like me asking you to account for a post to this forum made by Samson or anyone else.

It appears to me, based on some glaring inaccuracies that the poster has very little if any credibility. I do not know his agenda or motives for saying what he has, and I find his figures highly dubious. For one thing, the corporate offices are in fact located in Munich, Germany, with a larger customer service office located in Stuttgart, Germany. They are not located in Slovenia, infact, they only recently started doing business in Slovenia. While the link he cites may be registered to someone in Slovenia, it is not the website for KB. That would be like me registering the domain http://www.disney-walter-disney.com and some anonymous idiot trying to use that as proof that the Disney resorts and animation studios are actually a Canadian empire. It's absolutely ludicrous at best. And potentially tragic for those who listen to those who would read it and believe it, {cough} 225for70 {cough} because it is nothing more than the ignorant and blind leading the ignorant and blind.

KB Edelmetall is a very successful DEBT-FREE 16 year old German company. Due to their credibility and influence they applied for and received a license from the Swiss authorities to produce Swiss certified monetary gold. This means KB is subject to very strict regulations and random audits. The gold KB produces is certified by the Swiss government. 99.9% pure 24kt gold is a universal global currency without any counter party risk.

If I were to rely on the opinion of another, I would prefer NOT to rely on that of an anonymous poster with inaccurate information, but would rather defer to the opinion of Bund der Sparer, an independent German Consumer Watchdog organization that not only endorses KB, but also highly recommends KB to it's members as a very good investment.

As far as buying larger coins over smaller weighted bars, that is a personal decision based on both means and preference. At todays and tomorrows prices, not everyone has or will have the ability to pull together $1500+ at once to acquire a 1 oz coin. When the price moves to $3,000 per oz and beyond, the market for 1 oz coins will be even more limited.

Many who use KB do so, in order to access the smaller weights for various pragmatic reasons. In the event of a financial crisis where FIAT currency has no value, a 1 oz or larger weight coin or bar would not prove a practical solution for day to day transactions. The premiums paid for these coins would prove wasteful, as they would lose all numismatic value, and in some cases would only be legal tender in a few countries. However, privately issued smaller weights allow for practical flexibility anywhere in the world. KB produces gold bars in 5 gram, 2.5 gram, and 1 gram sizes. KB also has plans to produce 0.5 gram and 0.25 gram bars in the future, as the price of gold continues to rise further.

Some points to consider when purchasing gold is that you cannot take the price of an oz of gold, divide it into 31.1, and come up with a price per gram. Gold is priced differently based on the weight. Unlike sugar or grains where all are priced on a universal code, precious metals are determined by the various weighted bars. The labour involved and refining process vary greatly between the different weighted bars. If you refined/melted down a 1 troy oz bar of gold, you will not end up with 31.1 gram bars. It takes more gold to produce the smaller units due to evaporation and of course more labour goes into assaying, certificating, stamping, serial numbers....etc.. It is a very tedious process as you go down in size.  There is always a premium on gold based on the bars final weight. The larger the bar, ...the lower the premium, ...when you purchase gold bars with a premium, ...you will sell back at the same premium based on the bar size/weight.   KB's prices are located on their website and change daily according to the markets.  

You may find gram weight bars for less, however, if you compare 1 gram kinebar gold bars, you will find it very difficult for anyone to match the price that KB offers especially being a preferred customer. The key is really in the buy back price, what will they give you when you sell back? KB guarantees the best buy back price or lowest spread on the market for their gold.

If one wants to purchase KB gold and take physical delivery to their home or office, that option is available to them FREE of charge. As is FREE storage in the vaults in Germany. Storage is also available in Switzerland and Singapore. You decide. Some people choose to keep all their gold in the vault, others choose to take delivery, while others choose to take delivery of some to have on hand, while keeping the rest in the vault. It is completely up to you. Just like your cash, some keep all or a portion in the bank, while keeping all or a portion within arm's reach. Similar to any other savings account, all deposits and/or withdrawals, are discretionary. You own manage and control the account.

Hope That Clarifies
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« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2011, 09:51:51 AM »

Boo-nasty i posted how this was a scam a few months back. 30%+ spread on the bid/ask which is highway robbery...


Best case you only lose the spread (30%+_ currently) However, it's a bucket shop and the firm can move buy back price when they want to.

Worst case you lose everything...


jaguar can you address 225's post here?




. KB Edelmetall is a very successful DEBT-FREE 16 year old German company.


how long in the gold business?  what other businesses have they been involved in?




As far as buying coins over smaller weighted kinebars, that is a personal decision based on both means and preference. At todays and tomorrows prices, not everyone has or will have the ability to pull together $1500+ at once to acquire a 1 oz coin. When the price moves to $3,000 per oz and beyond, the market for 1 oz coins will be even more limited.

Many who use KB do so, in order to access the smaller weights for various pragmatic reasons. In the event of a financial crisis where FIAT currency has no value, a 1 oz or larger weight coin or bar would not prove a practical solution for day to day transactions. The premiums paid for these coins would prove wasteful, as they would lose all numismatic value, and in some cases would only be legal tender in a few countries. However, smaller weights allow for practical flexibility anywhere in the world. KB produces gold bars in 5 gram, 2.5 gram, 1 gram, and 0.5 gram sizes. KB also has plans to produce 0.25 gram bars in the future, as the price of gold continues to rise further.

Some points to consider when purchasing gold is that you cannot take the price of an oz of gold, divide it into 31.1, and come up with a price per gram. Gold is priced differently based on the weight. Unlike sugar or grains where all are priced on a universal code, precious metals are determined by the various weighted bars. The labour involved and refining process vary greatly between the different weighted bars. If you refined/melted down a 1 troy oz bar of gold, you will not end up with 31.1 gram bars. It takes more gold to produce the smaller units due to evaporation and of course more labour goes into assaying, certificating, stamping, serial numbers....etc.. It is a very tedious process as you go down in size.  There is always a premium on gold based on the bars final weight. The larger the bar, ...the lower the premium, ...when you purchase gold bars with a premium, ...you will sell back at the same premium based on the bar size/weight.   KB's prices are located on their website and change daily according to the markets. 

You may find gram weight bars for less, however, if you compare 1 gram kinebar gold bars, you will find it very difficult for anyone to match the price that KB offers especially being a preferred customer. The key is really in the buy back price, what will they give you when you sell back? KB guarantees the best buy back price or lowest spread on the market for kinebar gold.



jaguar, are you aware that you can buy tenth of an ounce american eagle gold coins?
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« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2011, 08:36:37 PM »


jaguar can you address 225's post here?

Sorry, have neither the desire nor inclination to invest time answering troll attacks.
225for70 has made it clear to me he is interested in troll attacks and flinging feces for shits n' giggles. Pass.

Quote
how long in the gold business?  what other businesses have they been involved in?

They've been in business for 16 years dealing with financial products, pensions plans, and other financial investment products. Their customers kept asking for gold products. A few years ago, a gold mine in Istanbul Turkey, came up for sale, and KB bought it. Shortly thereafter, a refinery near the gold mine, also came up for sale, and KB bought that too. Suddenly KB had two very impressive assets that would allow them to always meet the demands of their clients even in times of market shortfalls.

As a result of their overwhelming success in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and central Europe, KB decided to make the program available worldwide.

Of the 95 Tier one refineries in the world, 89 are government owned & controlled, ...only 6 are privately held.
KB is one of those six.


Quote
jaguar, are you aware that you can buy tenth of an ounce american eagle gold coins?

Boonasty, I'm not sure how to say this delicately, but the truth is "American made" products especially financial products don't really enjoy the trust they once did outside of America. Even prior to the financial crisis of 2008, or the revelations of gold-plated tungsten bars coming from the US mint, American eagles were less prized than the Canadian Maple Leaf.
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« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2011, 07:21:25 PM »

NUMISMATICS ARE FOOL'S GOLD
by Peter Schiff
Jan. 4, 2011


           Peter Schiff

Last month, I addressed the hype around gold confiscation, and debunked the myth that collectible or numismatic coins would offer effective protection. But there is another sales pitch that many dealers will use while trying to "up sell" you to numismatics. They may argue that on investment merits alone, numismatics are a better bet. While this may be a more rational line of thinking than the typical confiscation con, it is bad advice for investors hoping to protect their assets in an economic slump.

THINK LIKE A PRO, NOT A SCHMO

I have long urged investors to keep 5-10% of their portfolios in physical precious metals, and add even more exposure when appropriate through the Perth Mint certificate program and mining stocks. This advice, far outside of the Wall Street mainstream, stems from my view of the kind of crisis we are approaching.

Many people assume that the crash I wrote about in the original "Crash Proof" was the credit crunch of October '08. They are mistaken. Though I did accurately forecast the economic events of 2008, my ultimate prediction was that these events would set into motion a larger crash to follow. That crash, the one I have been warning about for a decade, is a collapse of the international dollar standard.

This is the crisis for which the smart money is already preparing. The People's Bank of China, Reserve Bank of India, Goldman Sachs, Barclays Capital, John Paulson, Jim Rogers, and countless other big names are all protecting themselves from a global monetary breakdown by buying gold. But are they doing it with numismatics? Among the big players, the answer is universally no.

NUMISMATICS ARE LIKE STAMPS, NOT STOCKS

The reason a numismatic coin can sell for double, triple, or even many multiples of the value of the metal it contains is that a collector values the rarity and/or beauty of the coin. As an investment, it is on par with a stamp or a baseball card. Some people do make money flipping these items, but it is usually an experienced broker who can buy at a steep discount and sell at a large markup - either to a collector who takes pleasure in owning the item but does not expect to profit from it, or to a naive investor who thinks he can make money selling it on to a collector (or a greater fool).

If you are buying numismatic coins, chances are you're making a fast-talking salesman very rich at your expense.

LIES, DAMNED LIES, AND STATISTICS

This salesman might have a chart showing the performance of "rare/collectible/numismatic coins" against "regular/bullion coins." Of course, the chart shows the numismatics performing much better. But these graphs inevitably track particular rare coins which are cherry-picked with the benefit of hindsight. For every one rare coin that outperforms, there could be ten that severely underperform. Only afterward would you know which coin you should have bought.

In addition, these comparisons typically measure times of relative affluence, when coin collectors are flush. The chart is likely to reverse during a recession, not to mention the inflationary depression we are likely to experience. When times are tough, coin collectors are just as broke as everyone else.

Finally, the comparisons often omit the dealer's high markups and markdowns that would more than wipe out the alleged profits for retail investors.

BULLION GOLD IS MONEY

By contrast, bullion gold is more than an investment. It something you own so you can trade locally for the stuff you need - food, clothes, a roof over your head - even if the other guy isn't a coin enthusiast. In other words, it is money. One of the characteristics that makes gold money is its uniformity - meaning each coin is the same as every other coin of the same weight. Diamonds, which are not uniform because they vary in clarity, color, etc., are not money. Numismatic coins, which vary in rarity, condition, date of issue, etc., are also not money.

Bullion gold coins will always have value to your fellow Americans, while paper dollars have less and less. As the dollar declines, the "price" of gold will continue to rise, reflecting the stable purchasing power of the yellow metal. What's more, in a volatile environment, bullion gold will carry a premium for being reliable and widely accepted money - just as the US dollar does now.

THE WORST TIME FOR NUMISMATICS IS NOW

If we enter into depression conditions, numismatics may actually drop in value while the gold price rises. As I mentioned above, numismatic coins depend on the demand of collectors. Collectors are folks with plenty of discretionary income. When inflation is eating away savings and the economy is contracting, who are these mystery millionaires that are going to buy your stash of St. Gaudens Double Eagles? Chances are any collectors will also be liquidating their collections as they lose their jobs and their investments go south.

Sure, the coins' gold content will provide a 'floor' to their value that stamps and baseball cards don't have, but the gold value is typically only a fraction of the retail price of a numismatic coin. If you pay twice the bullion value to buy a rare coin, bullion could double in value and you still might not be able to sell your coin for a profit. If you buy a regular bullion coin, the gold price only has to rise the amount of the markup above spot before you profit.

DON'T BUY FOOL'S GOLD

In short: the idea of numismatic coins as investments should be put to rest, once and for all.

Gold is a commodity. Bullion coins are pre-measured units of this commodity, stamped with a design as a quick signal of authenticity. Gold is also history's most reliable form of money, which makes it a good commodity to own when the world's paper money system is in upheaval.

But just like buying an Armani suit is not an investment in wool, numismatics are not an investment in gold. The only people who should be buying numismatics are those who appreciate the coins for their aesthetic value and take pleasure in owning them, not those hoping to preserve their wealth.

Gold still has a long bull market ahead of it. It's not too late for Americans to dump their dollar for a real store of value. The key is to find a trustworthy dealer with fair markups - and avoid dealers with teaser prices on the bullion coins you want and aggressive pitches for numismatics you should avoid.

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« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2011, 06:08:27 AM »

Central Banks are Acquiring Gold, Dumping US Dollars
by Michel Chossudovsky

Global Research, January 6, 2011



There is evidence that central banks in several regions of the World are building up their gold reserves. What is published are the official purchases. A large part of these Central Bank purchases of gold bullion are not disclosed. They are undertaken through third party contracting companies, with utmost discretion.

US dollar holdings and US dollar denominated debt instruments are in effect being traded in for gold, which in turn puts pressure on the US dollar.  

In turn, both China and Russia have boosted domestic production of gold, a large share of  which is being purchased by their central banks:

It has long been assumed that China is surreptitiously building up its gold reserves through buying local production. Russia is another major gold miner where the Central bank has been purchasing gold from another state entity, Gokhran, which is the marketing arm and central repository for the country's mined gold production. Now it has been reported by Bloomberg that the Venezuelan Central Bank director, Jose Khan, has said that country will boost its gold reserves through purchasing more than half the gold produced from its rapidly growing domestic gold mining industry.

In Russia, for example, Gokhran sold some 30 tonnes of gold to the Central Bank in an internal accounting exercise late last year. In part, so it was said at the time, the direct sale was made rather than placing the metal on the open market and perhaps adversely affecting the gold price.

China is currently the world's largest gold producer and last year it confirmed it had raised its own Central Bank gold holdings by more than 450 tones over the previous six years. Mineweb.com - The world's premier mining and mining investment website Venezuela taking own gold production into Central Bank reserves - GOLD NEWS | Mineweb

The 450 tons figure corresponds to an increase in the gold reserves of the central bank from 600 tons in 2003 to 1054 tons in 2009. If we go by official statements, China's gold reserves are increasing by approximately 10 percent per annum:

China has risen to now be the largest gold producing nation in the world at around 270 tonnes. The amount bought in by the government initially looks like 90 tonnes per annum or just under, 2 tonnes a week. Before 2003 the announcement by the Chinese central bank that gold reserves had been doubled to 600 tonnes, accounted for similar purchases before that date. Why so small an amount you may well ask? We think local and national issues clouded the central bank’s view as it was the government that bought the gold since 2003 and have now placed it on the central bank’s Balance Sheet. So we would conclude that the government has ensured central bank gold purchasing must continue. "How will Chinese Central Bank Gold Buying affect the Gold Price short & Long-Term?" by Julian Phillips. FSO Editorial 05/07/2009

Russia

Russia's Central bank holdings are in excess of 20 million troy ounces (January 2010)



Russia’s Central Bank reserves have increased markedly in recent years. The RCB reported in May 2010 purchasing 34.2 tons of gold in a single month. Russian Central Bank Gold Purchases Soar In May – China Too? | The Daily Gold

The diagram below shows a significant increase in monthly purchases by the the RCB since June 2009.



Central Banks in the Middle East are also building up their gold reserves, while reducing their dollar forex holding.

Gold reserves of GCC states is less than 5 percent:

Dubai International Financial Centre Authority economists released a report yesterday calling for local countries to build gold reserves, according to The National.

Despite a high interest in gold, GCC states maintain less than 5 percent of their total reserves in gold. Compared to the ECB, which holds 25 percent of reserves in gold, that leaves a lot of room for growth. http://www.businessinsider.com/gcc-boost-gold-holdings-2010-12#ixzz18FEqpTy3

GCC states should boost their foreign reserve holdings of gold to help shield their billions of dollars of assets from turbulence in global currency markets, say economists at the Dubai International Financial Centre Authority (DIFCA).

Diversifying more of their reserves from US dollars to the yellow metal would help to offer central banks in the region higher investment returns, said Dr Nasser Saidi, the chief economist of DIFCA, and Dr Fabio Scacciavillani, the director of macroeconomics and statistics at the authority.

"When you have a great deal of economic uncertainty, going into paper assets, whatever they may be - stocks, bonds, other types of equity - is not attractive," said Dr Saidi. "That makes gold more attractive."

Declines in the dollar during recent months have dented the value of GCC oil revenues, which are predominantly weighted in the greenback. GCC urged to boost gold reserves

According to a report in People`s Daily;

The latest rankings of gold reserves show that, as of mid-December, the United States remains the top country and the Chinese mainland is ranked sixth with 1,054 tons of reserves, the World Gold Council announced recently.

Russia climbed to eighth place because its gold reserves increased by 167.5 tons since December 2009. The top ten in 2010 remains the same compared to the rankings of the same period of last year. And Saudi Arabia squeezed to the top 20.

Developing countries and regions, including Saudi Arabia and South Africa, have become the main force driving the gold reserve increase. ... .

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the European central bank are the major gold sellers, and the IMF's gold reserves decreased by 158.6 tons. (China's gold reserves rank 6th worldwide - People's Daily Online

It should be understood that actual purchases of physical gold are not the only factor in explaining the movement of gold prices. The gold market is marked by organized speculation by large scale financial institutions.

The gold market is characterised by numerous paper instruments, gold index funds, gold certificates, OTC gold derivatives (including options, swaps and forwards), which play a strong role, particularly in short-term movement of gold prices. The recent increase and subsequent decline of gold prices are the result of manipulation by powerful financial actors.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22672
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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2011, 02:44:35 AM »

Not owning gold is insane, Cazenove's Griffiths tells CNBC
 
Section: Daily Dispatches
8:10p ET Monday, January 10, 2011

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Interviewed today by CNBC, Cazenove Capital's technical strategist, Robin Griffiths, remarked that gold is still in a "linear trend" but eventually will "go exponential" as fiat currencies are "printed into oblivion," and so not owning gold is "a form of insanity." Of course this doesn't mean that all gold owners are sane, just that even the crazy ones may end up able to pay for their own institutionalization. You can read a summary of the interview with Griffiths and watch its video, about 4 minutes long, at the CNBC Internet site here:

http://www.cnbc.com//id/40997445

"Gold will eventually rally exponentially and investors who don't own the precious metal are 'insane,' and may be showing 'masochistic tendencies.' " --Robin Griffiths, technical strategist at Cazenove Capital
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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2011, 03:05:20 AM »

Judge orders Fed to deliver gold records for her review

Section: Daily Dispatches
2:18p ET Monday, January 10, 2011

GATA today scored a small but perhaps auspicious victory over the Federal Reserve in our lawsuit seeking access to the Fed's secret gold files. The judge presiding over GATA's federal freedom-of-information lawsuit in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, Ellen Segal Huvelle, granted GATA's motion to order the Fed to produce in complete form for the judge's private review 20 gold-related documents the Fed has sought to keep secret. The judge ordered the Fed to deliver the documents by Friday.

Through its lawyers, William J. Olson P.C. of Vienna, Virginia -- www.LawAndFreedom.com -- GATA has argued that the Fed's production of gold-related documents has been so inadequate and the Fed's arguments for keeping them secret so weak that the court should review the documents acknowledged by the Fed and order the Fed to answer 25 questions from GATA about the Fed's search for relevant information.

While Judge Huvelle still could grant at any time the Fed's motion to dismiss GATA's lawsuit, her ruling today at least implies a little skepticism about the Fed and its tactics. Combined with today's statement by U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, the new chairman of the House Financial Services Committee's Subcommittee on Monetary Policy (http://www.gata.org/node/9495), Judge Huvelle's ruling gives hope that the Fed's enormous secret power to rig markets and bestow the most fantastic patronage on a parasitic financial elite can be brought to account eventually.

The judge's order to the Fed to produce documents for her private review can be found at GATA's Internet site here:

http://www.gata.org/files/GATAFedLawsuitCourtOrder-01-10-2011.pdf

Those who are skeptical of GATA's complaint that the Federal Reserve is part of an interntional gold-price rigging scheme should reflect on the meaning of the Fed's refusal to disclose all its gold-related records, records that include gold swap arrangements with foreign banks:

http://www.gata.org/node/8192

If the U.S. gold reserves are just sitting somewhere, inert, unencumbered, and unused for surreptitious market intervention, what's the problem with full disclosure?

Financial journalists unafraid of aggravating the world's financial powers should start putting gold-related questions to the Fed and other central banks and stop simply assuming that secrecy should be the normal order of things with central banks and gold.

And people everywhere who believe in free markets in the monetary metals and who have not already supported GATA financially can join our struggle here:

http://www.gata.org/node/16

This struggle could have been undertaken easily and likely more effectively by the World Gold Council, which aims to represent gold mining companies and gold investors. But the council's indifference to questions of surreptitious central bank intervention in the gold market has left the struggle to GATA. We need your help to pursue this struggle to victory for free markets, limited government, and a better, fairer world.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
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« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2011, 04:49:43 PM »

Scam.  Why can't anyone explain the price?  Huh

Not even on this forum can people who live in munich explain the scam

http://www.investingideas.biz/forum/thread-kb-gold-and-a-free-gold-franchise?page=2

Rights Guys

Thanks for the invite but can you explain why I would come to a webinar or whatever to to told that I'm paying 33.17% above the London Fix for your 1g bars? If I resold them back I would still only get back around 8% ? So in actual fact I'm still -25.18% from where I started from one day to the next.
When I buy from you I'm 33.17% out of pocket straight away and would need gold to increase in value at just under 5% per month for seven months just to break even on my original purchase.

http://www.obtainer-online.com/kb_gold_once_again_critized_by_publically_governed_television_3_479_EN.html

They are profiling themselves as franchisor and not as a... franchisee, so what ARE they!

KB also owns NO Goldmine and not even one ounce of gold as... They Say !
They are pure franchisee.

Only the franchisor itself has property rights and contracts with Turkey.

KB has NOTHING and is in fact nothing more then an organization that is in nothing more than providing services on behalf of the franchisor. KB does not even posses 1 gram of gold, but claims that they have, again the franchisor has. People are getting even strongly adviced to close contracts of 3000 euros, while everyone knows that the gold price at its peak. You should SELL gold right now. Buying Gold now is very unwise, not to mentioning... Stupid. Mike Koschine tells stories, and all independent Agents do also who are far from the truth, just trying to close these contracts. Investing is creating money with money, but this is destroying your hard earned money. Nobody is also buying shares when they are are the top... they sell ! Wise investors never get approached by them, because they will not fall for it and that is why they are approaching mainly private households, because they do know that there are still many people outthere who is believing such a crap and blufcompany. IT IS A SCANDAL !
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« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2011, 05:40:03 AM »

Why can't anyone explain the price?  Huh

KC, you need to back up a few posts in this thread to see my response to Boonasty.

Quote
http://www.obtainer-online.com/kb_gold_once_again_critized_by_publically_governed_television_3_479_EN.html

They are profiling themselves as franchisor and not as a... franchisee, so what ARE they!

Bear in mind we are referring to cross jurisdictional definitions. What can be considered a franchise in Europe, may not be considered a franchise in North America. As well, keep in mind, you are asking me to address other people's "opinions". Opinions are not facts, as evidenced by the following comment...

Quote
KB also owns NO Goldmine and not even one ounce of gold as... They Say !

Only the franchisor itself has property rights and contracts with Turkey.

KB has NOTHING and is in fact nothing more then an organization that is in nothing more than providing services on behalf of the franchisor. KB does not even posses 1 gram of gold, but claims that they have, again the franchisor has.

The above statement is completely false. The allegations have been previously made by a competitor. After audits of the vault in Switzerland, all customer monies and gold was indeed verified and accounted for.


Quote
People are getting even strongly adviced to close contracts of 3000 euros, while everyone knows that the gold price at its peak. You should SELL gold right now. Buying Gold now is very unwise, not to mentioning... Stupid. Mike Koschine tells stories, and all independent Agents do also who are far from the truth, just trying to close these contracts. Investing is creating money with money, but this is destroying your hard earned money. Nobody is also buying shares when they are are the top... they sell ! Wise investors never get approached by them, because they will not fall for it and that is why they are approaching mainly private households, because they do know that there are still many people outthere who is believing such a crap and blufcompany. IT IS A SCANDAL !

Selling Gold right now is in my opinion what one should NOT be doing. Just because it is currently at all time highs doesn't mean it does not yet have a ways to go. I believe gold is just entering the initial phase of a bull market, and will be quite some time before the price comes down to where people buying gold today would lose any money. The very proliferation of business establishments looking to buy gold from the public should be proof enough.
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« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2011, 06:08:56 AM »


Commentary

There Is No Getting Around Gold
Jeffrey Bell and Rich Danker
01.10.11, 12:00 PM ET

Earlier this week Thomas Hoenig, president of the Kansas City Federal Reserve, went out of his way to call the gold standard a "very legitimate monetary system." In November, World Bank President Robert Zoellick and Indiana Republican Congressman Mike Pence both called for a serious look at using gold as the centerpiece of international monetary reform.

The fact that a Fed leader, the highest-ranking American official in international economics, and a potential presidential candidate are talking up the gold standard indicates that floating money is running out of political cover, and that the obstacles to gold replacing it are narrowing.

The first confirmation of this was the reaction of certain economic elites who, instead of responding with a straightforward defense of the status quo, lobbed ad hominem attacks on those who dared to mention gold. "I think [Zoellick] is living in the past," Edwin Truman of the Peterson Institute for International Economics told the Financial Times. Gold is "minor and really irrelevant," echoed Peterson Institute Director Fred Bergsten in the same article.

The most common practical objection to the international gold standard is political: that the slight deflationary bias it gives off would not be tolerated by people today. Yet this conclusion overlooks the serial price crashes that the economy has endured since gold was demonetized in 1971.

At different times and most recently all at once, the values of homes, stocks and other investment assets have collapsed and traumatized the lives of ordinary Americans. Think upheaval over monetary policy was a thing of the 19th century? In 1982 a mob of tractor-driving farmers blockaded the Fed headquarters in Washington in protest over high interest rates, leading Chairman Paul Volcker to hold public forums around the country to try and explain his prolonged and painful effort to squeeze inflation out of the economy.

The busts of the post-Bretton Woods era have been the downsides of the bubbles. Taken together they represent the chronic problem of modern capitalism: the excess credit that at its high point decouples capitalist virtues from prosperity and at its low point pins ordinary people under acute economic distress. This is the distinguishing feature of the debt-based monetary system the world inherited by going off gold.

U.S. dollars, the world's main reserve money supply, are pieces of paper with no independent value. It is no wonder that government, corporate, and household debt levels have soared under this arrangement and muddled the difference between the genuine article of economic ingenuity and the next conduit for hot money.

The international gold standard worked as well as it did because it automated domestic monetary decisions according to the ability of citizens and foreign trading partners to convert currencies into gold. The price-specie-flow mechanism, devised by David Hume to discredit mercantilism in the 18th century, guaranteed that countries with international payments deficits lost buying power and were brought back into balance with the world economy through competitive price adjustments initiated by redemptions for gold. This system, which the U.S. was wedded to from 1879 to 1914, outperformed all other American monetary regimes in terms of overall price stability according to John Mueller's statistical analysis in his new book Redeeming Economics.

Various proposals to repair the paper dollar system have been fashioned to avoid using gold, ranging from an inflation target rule as employed by the European Central Bank, to Ben Bernanke's "constrained discretion" approach, to recent legislation by Pence and Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., that reduces the Fed's mandate to the sole task of assuring price stability. But attempting to transmit the gold standard's results without gold is wishful thinking.

No central bank can manage a currency well enough to replicate the benefits of an independent value behind it whose convertibility conveys a clear signal about the demand for money. There are compelling reasons that gold is this ideal monetary anchor: Its supply grows at a steady rate that over time mirrors long-run economic growth, it cannot be destroyed or easily lost, and it is historically identifiable as money.

Yet most sympathetic politicians, policymakers and academics shy away from embracing gold. A common refrain is lack of voter knowledge, and there is some truth to this. In focus groups of Democrats and Republicans that we observed over the summer in Cincinnati, most participants had come of age after Bretton Woods and therefore had no living memory of gold playing a central role in monetary policy. But they did comprehend the gold standard when it was explained to them (a third session in Cincinnati with Tea Party activists elicited surprising levels of historical knowledge and support).

Even if they have never heard of the price-specie-flow mechanism, voters have an increasing sense of how the gold standard works because there is an intuitive association of gold with money. A system that last fully operated before World War I is more transparent and understandable than the monetary regime we live under today, dictated by central bankers making policy according to their macroeconomic preoccupations. The monetary authorities themselves do not understand the impact of their decisions on the wider world, where foreign central banks recycle excess reserves into U.S. dollar-denominated debt that artificially boosts asset prices and generates recurring bubbles below the radar of inflation.

Floating money was supposed to be an experiment in alleviating the international payments deficit when President Richard Nixon closed the gold window in 1971. What started as something of a desperation measure took on a life of its own and became an entrenched system with the requisite pro-status quo establishment and line of defense.

Despite its well-documented failings, it has been bailed out time and time again by the resilience of the American economy. Even an optimist like Ronald Reagan would have had a hard time believing in 1971 that the U.S. could survive a monetary crisis of the kind that would occur on his watch.

But the tight money fix that he saw through proved to be a reprieve, rather than an antidote, for the dysfunctionality of debt-based managed money. Would-be reformers have tried to devise solutions designed in large part to avoid including gold, but none have caught fire or shown themselves to be as transparent and simple as the gold standard. The only real debate is between paper money and gold-backed money, and it is already getting under way at the highest levels.

Jeffrey Bell and Rich Danker are policy director and project director for economics, respectively, at American Principles Project, a Washington, D.C.-based advocacy group.
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« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2011, 11:33:21 AM »



Boonasty, I'm not sure how to say this delicately, but the truth is "American made" products especially financial products don't really enjoy the trust they once did outside of America. Even prior to the financial crisis of 2008, or the revelations of gold-plated tungsten bars coming from the US mint, American eagles were less prized than the Canadian Maple Leaf.


are you claiming that gold mined in the united states is worth less than gold mined elsewhere?



Selling Gold right now is in my opinion what one should NOT be doing. Just because it is currently at all time highs doesn't mean it does not yet have a ways to go. I believe gold is just entering the initial phase of a bull market, and will be quite some time before the price comes down to where people buying gold today would lose any money. The very proliferation of business establishments looking to buy gold from the public should be proof enough.


i don't think people should be selling their gold at this time also but jaguar don't you agree that an individual gets much less gold for their money if they buy from your company?


also does your company plan to do business in the united states or do the laws make it illegal for that company to do business in the u.s.?
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« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2011, 10:40:39 PM »


are you claiming that gold mined in the united states is worth less than gold mined elsewhere?

Not at all. Aside from purity issues of the various coins, I'm simply saying that trust & faith in things "American made" is not as strong as in years past. That might not be something that YOU as an American may enjoy hearing, or even relate to, but America's reputation has taken quite a tremendous beating over the last decade. Recent revelations of American made US Mint produced gold plated tungsten bars does little to alleviate that.

Quote
i don't think people should be selling their gold at this time also but jaguar don't you agree that an individual gets much less gold for their money if they buy from your company?

Boonasty, not if you're comparing apples to apples. KB sells smaller weighted hologrammed bars, and while they may be priced higher per gram than 1 oz or 1 kilo bars, they are the best priced 1 gram hologrammed bars on the market. KB didn't pioneer the production of gold bars with holograms, UBS did, and already KB has surpassed UBS as the world's largest seller of 1 gram bars. Remember too, the KB savings plan is not designed for market speculators looking for a quick buck, ie: buy today, sell tomorrow, buy again on Tuesday morning, sell again Friday afternoon etc., The KB savings plan is designed for those who want to buy today, buy next week / month, buy again next week/month, buy again next week/month as their budget allows. It is for those who see and understand the value of gold, as well as where the price of gold is going, and want to protect the value of their purchasing power by exchanging increasingly worth-less fiat currency for something with real appreciation.

Quote
also does your company plan to do business in the united states or do the laws make it illegal for that company to do business in the u.s.?

KB most definitely plans to do business in the USA. Infact, the i's are being dotted, and the t's are being crossed as I type.
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« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2011, 12:00:29 PM »

KC, you need to back up a few posts in this thread to see my response to Boonasty.

Bear in mind we are referring to cross jurisdictional definitions. What can be considered a franchise in Europe, may not be considered a franchise in North America. As well, keep in mind, you are asking me to address other people's "opinions". Opinions are not facts, as evidenced by the following comment...

The above statement is completely false. The allegations have been previously made by a competitor. After audits of the vault in Switzerland, all customer monies and gold was indeed verified and accounted for.


Selling Gold right now is in my opinion what one should NOT be doing. Just because it is currently at all time highs doesn't mean it does not yet have a ways to go. I believe gold is just entering the initial phase of a bull market, and will be quite some time before the price comes down to where people buying gold today would lose any money. The very proliferation of business establishments looking to buy gold from the public should be proof enough.

So let me get this straight.  This 'company' is a franchise which somehow means something different when anyone can see it doesn't.  They don't own the mine at all because if they did they wouldn't be selling sh*tty little debit cards with gold on them, they would be either a multi million dollar a year private company  in which you would never be involved with it or a publicly listed mining company.  Fact is they are neither. 

They are selling get rich quick to fools overseas to sell their poorly priced product on the back of a bearish gold market.  Then they tie in snake oil peddlers like yourself to get sell it to the public dumb enough to believe gold will forever rise and no one has any use for paper money anymore.   Roll Eyes

Yeah Schiff and all the fund managers are telling you to buy gold so they can dump it before it comes crashing back down.  They don't give out 'advice' for free when people pay hundreds of thousands for it.   
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« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2011, 10:28:50 PM »

So let me get this straight.  This 'company' is a franchise which somehow means something different when anyone can see it doesn't.  They don't own the mine at all because if they did they wouldn't be selling sh*tty little debit cards with gold on them, they would be either a multi million dollar a year private company  in which you would never be involved with it or a publicly listed mining company.  Fact is they are neither.  

They are selling get rich quick to fools overseas to sell their poorly priced product on the back of a bearish gold market.  Then they tie in snake oil peddlers like yourself to get sell it to the public dumb enough to believe gold will forever rise and no one has any use for paper money anymore.   Roll Eyes

Yeah Schiff and all the fund managers are telling you to buy gold so they can dump it before it comes crashing back down.  They don't give out 'advice' for free when people pay hundreds of thousands for it.  

Are you asking a question, ...or making a statement? No, you don't have it straight at all.
You really should understand the difference between facts, and opinions based on false information.

No one is selling a get rich quick scheme of any kind. KB is selling hologrammed gold bullion in smaller weights, thereby making gold ownership accessible to the masses, as a hedge against inflation, and the increasing trend of currency devaluation. It's NOT a 'get rich quick scheme'. It empowers the consumer to maintain the value of their wealth and purchasing power through precious metals. If anything, it is an 'avoid poverty program.'
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« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2011, 08:13:02 PM »


i don't think people should be selling their gold at this time also but jaguar don't you agree that an individual gets much less gold for their money if they buy from your company?



Boonasty, not if you're comparing apples to apples. KB sells smaller weighted kinebars, and while they may be priced higher per gram than 1 oz or 1 kilo bars, they are the best priced 1 gram kinebars on the market. KB didn't pioneer the production of kinebars, UBS did, and already KB has surpassed UBS as the world's largest seller of 1 gram kinebars. Remember too, the KB savings plan is not designed for market speculators looking for a quick buck, ie: buy today, sell tomorrow, buy again on Tuesday morning, sell again Friday afternoon etc., The KB savings plan is designed for those who want to buy today, buy next week / month, buy again next week/month, buy again next week/month as their budget allows. It is for those who see and understand where the value of gold is going, and want to protect the value of their purchasing power by exchanging increasingly worth-less fiat currency for something with real appreciation.



Some points to consider when purchasing gold is that you cannot take the price of an oz of gold, divide it into 31.1, and come up with a price per gram. Gold is priced differently based on the weight. Unlike sugar or grains where all are priced on a universal code, precious metals are determined by the various weighted bars. The labour involved and refining process vary greatly between the different weighted bars. If you refined/melted down a 1 troy oz bar of gold, you will not end up with 31.1 gram bars. It takes more gold to produce the smaller units due to evaporation and of course more labour goes into assaying, certificating, stamping, serial numbers....etc.. It is a very tedious process as you go down in size.  There is always a premium on gold based on the bars final weight. The larger the bar, ...the lower the premium, ...when you purchase gold bars with a premium, ...you will sell back at the same premium based on the bar size/weight.   KB's prices are located on their website and change daily according to the markets.  

You may find gram weight bars for less, however, if you compare 1 gram kinebar gold bars, you will find it very difficult for anyone to match the price that KB offers especially being a preferred customer.



jaguar don't you agree that an individual gets much less gold for their money if they buy from your company?


Attached is a linked pdf where you will find an actual price list from big german bank the "Kreissparkasse".
There you can see that their selling price for 1 g is 47,90 EURO.
Our price for the same day is 47,80 EURO and with the preferred customer discount 46,37 EURO.
Now the question is, who is too expensive? And theirs isn't even kinebar grade.
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« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2011, 08:18:28 PM »

Only gold will hold its own among currencies,
Hinde study concludes


Monday, January 17, 2011.
Section: Daily Dispatches 11:58a ET

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Hinde Capital in London, whose CEO, Ben Davies, has become a gold advocate of worldwide renown over the past year, has published a comprehensive study of the world's financial situation as it relates to gold. As currencies race to devalue, the study finds, gold is the only currency likely to hold its own, and Hinde more or less advises people to get all the metal they can and then find a safe planet to keep it on. The study is titled "Nessun Dorma" -- opera talk for "None Shall Sleep" -- and credits GATA's work exposing the central bank gold price suppression scheme. You can find the study at GATA's Internet site here:

http://www.gata.org/files/HindeCapital-NessunDorma-01-17-2011.pdf
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« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2011, 09:41:24 AM »

MAD Rush For Physical Silver At The Comex, $50 Silver in February 2011?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktJjqOcZA4w" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktJjqOcZA4w</a>

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« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2011, 09:58:47 AM »

The failure of derivatives regulation of precious metals

The regulatory failure of precious metal contracts in US derivative markets will have important systemic consequences, and nowhere is the problem becoming more obvious today than in silver.  Several banks have been running a substantial short position for a considerable time. This position has been permitted to continue because of weak management by both Comex as the principal dealing exchange and by poor oversight from the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission as regulator.

Between them Comex and the CFTC have ignored two fundamental truths about the market. The first truth is that the continual rolling of short or long positions is fundamentally unhealthy, and is indicative of a growing risk of trader default over time.  The second is that no market participant in an open outcry system has any commitment to deal or provide liquidity, unlike a market where there are licensed market-makers who have to make two-way prices at all times. There is therefore no reason why such a long-running speculative position should be permitted even for the Commercials (the banks), and their long-term presence, for which there must be a reason, may be evidence of price manipulation.

The weakness in market control stems partly from the separation of overall market functions into management and regulation by two different bodies. The result, put simply, is there is no one in charge. If the Comex’s management had regulatory responsibility it would have been forced to stand up to the Commercials from the outset, because it would almost certainly see the continual rolling of excessively large positions as leading to potential difficulties in time. It would have a duty to investigate price manipulation, because there would be no third party regulator for a large trader to hide behind. Regulation is an integral component of this management function, and a properly constituted market authority is the most effective way to enforce the spirit of regulation as well as the letter.

However, the CFTC is the regulator and it has to satisfy not only its regulatory mandate, but the agendas of those that appoint its senior officers.  This politicisation of the role, while perhaps justifiable on grounds of a concept of public accountability, actually provides a channel for the financial establishment to achieve their own undeclared objectives.

It is this suspicion that has helped convince an increasing number of observers that the regulatory system is inherently biased.  Only now, after much prompting by GATA and others has the possibility of price-rigging begun to be grudgingly acknowledged. But the critics are up against powerful banks, which know how to tick boxes and so are rarely caught out on compliance and legal issues.  They understand the politics of regulation and are well positioned to lobby accordingly.  And they know how to play off the exchange against the regulator.

We have theorised over the inadequacies of the regulatory system and must now turn to the facts. The deficiencies of the system have led to the silver market becoming completely polarised.  There is a divorce between derivatives, where there is inadequate control over large long-running positions, and the physical market, where there is now virtually no metal for delivery.  It has become a dangerous reversal of functions that is now complete: paper silver is no longer priced on the back of physical metal; it is the physical that is notionally priced on the back of paper. The tail is wagging the dog to the point that the free supply of derivatives has led to the metal being driven from circulation. [1]

While the market for silver derivatives may interest only a minority, the same problem occurs for gold, which is a far more serious systemic issue.  The separation of functions between market and regulator has facilitated a similar price suppression scheme, totally negating the principal function of derivative markets, which is to provide liquidity by harnessing speculative demand for the benefit of prudent hedging activities.

This simply does not happen for precious metals.  The Commercials on Comex are mostly banks that also provide unallocated gold accounts, which they manage on a fractional reserve basis.  Their basic risk requirement is for a hedge to offset the effect of a rise in the gold price on these unallocated accounts, so they should be holding long, and not short gold contracts.  Unfortunately, the size of unallocated account business is too large to hedge on Comex anyway. Furthermore, the majority of the speculating public are and always will be net buyers when they have any interest at all, so both non-Commercial and Commercials are fundamentally buyers. For this reason the concept of an effective public derivatives market for precious metals is flawed from the outset, and must not be confused with those commodity derivatives where there is a healthy deal flow provided by product suppliers and industrial demand.

For any bank running unallocated bullion accounts on a fractional reserve basis, markets that allow the public to buy gold and silver only increase the price risk to its own position. The temptation to use these markets to manipulate prices downwards, or at least to try to stop them rising is therefore very great, and this is exactly what has happened. There is now an accumulated short position by the Commercials of about 700 tonnes of gold.  To this must be added the far larger short position on the bullion banks’ unallocated accounts, and the uncovered sight accounts run by the central banks in the major dealing centres.  No one knows for sure how much the total short position amounts to, but we can be certain that the Commercial shorts on Comex are by far the smallest component.

It is the inevitable unwinding of these massive short positions that will have adverse systemic consequences.  The unallocated accounts, probably the largest element of the problem, can be closed out for cash under the standard LBMA account terms, probably with a multi-government bail-out. The resolution of uncovered sight accounts at the central banks will be kept a close secret.  It is Comex which will probably bear the most visible manifestation of the crisis.

18 January 2011
 

[1] For statistical evidence of the relationship between contract volumes, the silver price and the unavailability of bullion, see a recent article by Adrian Douglas of Market Force Analysis at https://marketforceanalysis.com/article/latest_article_011511.html.
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« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2011, 12:57:42 AM »

Why We Should All Own GOLD

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inaM4IRWuI0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inaM4IRWuI0</a>
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