The judging is more fucked up now then ever....thanks

[Wiggs]

That was a poor explanation from Rockell....the explanation sucked and the rule sucks...50% of the show being judged on the second day but 7th place and lower can't move up into top six? YET 50% of the judging is done on the second day...If that isn't stupid, then I don't know what is...In addition, 50% of the show is judged in the last 1-2 min of the final posedown but there are no rules for this round....Just kinda walk around and "go to war" posing head to head? Sounds really fair

Oh yeah the "Ya gotta cut it off somewhere" comment?  Someone commented best, places 7-10 aka 7th-10th best bodybuilders in the world aren't worth moving up into a possible 6th place...

To put it in better terms, the seventh place winner is not worthy of being compared to the 6th place person on the second day where 50% of the judging takes place in the last 1-2 min....What kind of a fuckin' joke is this in the top show in the sport?

Look for this to be avoided to be talked about in the future...

[MORTALCOIL]

The rules sound stupid but the fact is the 7th-10th placings were actually pretty sound, non eof those guys deserved to be in the top 6. Kai, Vic, Freeman, Hide got exactly the right spots. It's wihtin the top 6 that the placing is more questionable.

[Vince B]

The IFBB isn't responsible to anyone and can do whatever they like. The Pro League ditto. They appoint the pro athletes rep. For life. There he was MCing the show. Talk about bullshit.

The bodybuilders go along with all that crap because anyone who speaks out gets placed down, etc. Judge the damn show on the Friday and that is that. No more judging. The judges get together and talk and this contaminates the whole damn process. The IFBB love this because they can help the judges who might be deviating too far from the others! A travesty for sure.

[Wiggs]

The rules sound stupid but the fact is the 7th-10th placings were actually pretty sound, non eof those guys deserved to be in the top 6. Kai, Vic, Freeman, Hide got exactly the right spots. It's wihtin the top 6 that the placing is more questionable.

I agree with this year but I'm talking about the rule in general...Although Kai should have placed behind Vic and Vic could have been ahead of Rockel.

[MORTALCOIL]

I agree with this year but I'm talking about the rule in general...Although Kai should have placed behind Vic and Vic could have been ahead of Rockel.

I agree those rules will create problems soon enough. Vic better than Kai? That's possible. But Rockel had a better overall combo. I actually would have placed him even a bit higher, probably 4th or 5th,  'cauuse him and Wolf were close. What I don't get is Branch 3rd. Ok, the guy has done some adjusments in the right direction and his conditioning and mass are crazy but the proportions, symmetry are still too poor and his back is still lacking in definition even with his conditioning. I have him 6th no higher.

[jwb]

Wiggs, they judge the final 6 comparisons at night just before the "posedown" as part of the "posedown."

The fact that 7 thru 10 get no chance to move up at night sucks dogs balls though.

Also, 6 of the 11 judges have their scores removed (3 highest and lowest). Are the IFBB saying they don't trust the judgement of the majority of their judges?

[Wiggs]

Here's what bothers me most about it...That half the show is judged on the second night....If that is so and posing routines are not judged...That means the only way you can move in placings is by being in the top 6....7th and lower cannot be changed period because the posing routines aren't judged and all the judging the second day happens ONLY during the posedown...Which makes the 2nd day pointless for 7th and up...

This is worse than it was before...


A fucking joke and these rules are much worse than what was in place before...Hard to believe.

[jwb]

Wiggs they judge the comparisons of the top 6 during the finals didn't you watch the replay? I doubt they judge the "posedown" at all.

Nice to see you angry though...

[Wiggs]

Wiggs they judge the comparisons of the top 6 during the finals didn't you watch the replay? I doubt they judge the "posedown" at all.

Nice to see you angry though...

Yeah, I got that...thanks...doesn't take care of the part that irks me the worse..for places 7th and worse.

[jwb]

Yeah, I got that...thanks...doesn't take care of the part that irks me the worse..for places 7th and worse.

Listening to the show now seems Jim is talking about having more judging.

I think they should judge the posing round for the top 10 from the prejudging but judge it as a physique round. In other words if you don't hit your best shots you don't score max points - the "entertainment " factor isn't judged.

The reason they need to judge the posing round as a physique round is the fact that it is basically where the guys get to do their signature poses that show their bodies at their best.... right now the whole show comes down to the mandatories pretty much.

[~UN_$ung~]

i agree there are a whole host of conflicts and things that make zero sense

* top bodybuilding contest in the world, but only 6 bodybuilders have a chance to ascend their placement.....
(so some guys can move up if they show up better the next day, but others cant)

* still dont know what to do with posing, or whether or not to score it

*  every year it changes how much of the score is weighted on prejudging compared to the night show

*  callouts are lazy, some guys get called out once, and dont get compred with others

*  and how the olympia is held over two days, making competitors have to peak twice, which day carries more weight?


and lets not even get into the more body-subjective things like how a guy like jay can be in first, then a guy like phil can be in second, then a guy like branch in third, then dex in fourth

........so what wins out, aesthetics or condition





its amazing after all this time, almost 50 years they have not been able to establish consistant rules and judging guidelines............ev ery year at the athletes meetings the scoring is revamped, only to be revamped again the following year








and what about non-white competitors, shouldnt they be assessed a numeric penalty based on the fact that they have no souls.....

[Vince B]

If the judges are qualified then all votes should count just like they do in the Olympic games. Why they delete top and bottom scores is a carry over from the days judges were recruited from all the local gym owners. That way everyone voted for the guys from their gyms and it evened out as long as all gyms were represented. I think the bodybuilders would rather have scores from all 11 judges instead of having the current system. If they are going to delete the top and bottom 3 then they should recruit another 6 judges so that 11 are counted in the final tally. 5 judges shouldn't be deciding who wins. That is another way of eliminating deviation. Can you see this, good people? It may well be that the judges putting people high or lower are doing the most valid judging. If you eliminate them then you introduce unfairness and that is what they are trying to avoid.

Once a judge shows bias he is never allowed to judge again. I have had experience setting up a judging system from criteria to assessing judges. I can tell you it is not easy finding intelligent, competent, unbiased and consistent judges.

[Wiggs]

i agree there are a whole host of conflicts and things that make zero sense

* top bodybuilding contest in the world, but only 6 bodybuilders have a chance to ascend their placement.....
(so some guys can move up if they show up better the next day, but others cant)

* still dont know what to do with posing, or whether or not to score it

*  every year it changes how much of the score is weighted on prejudging compared to the night show

*  callouts are lazy, some guys get called out once, and dont get compred with others

*  and how the olympia is held over two days, making competitors have to peak twice, which day carries more weight?


and lets not even get into the more body-subjective things like how a guy like jay can be in first, then a guy like phil can be in second, then a guy like branch in third, then dex in fourth

........so what wins out, aesthetics or condition





its amazing after all this time, almost 50 years they have not been able to establish consistant rules and judging guidelines............ev ery year at the athletes meetings the scoring is revamped, only to be revamped again the following year








and what about non-white competitors, shouldnt they be assessed a numeric penalty based on the fact that they have no souls.....

I thought you guys were the "white soulless devils"?

[MisterGX]

Here's what bothers me most about it...That half the show is judged on the second night....If that is so and posing routines are not judged...That means the only way you can move in placings is by being in the top 6....7th and lower cannot be changed period because the posing routines aren't judged and all the judging the second day happens ONLY during the posedown...Which makes the 2nd day pointless for 7th and up...

This is worse than it was before...


A fucking joke and these rules are much worse than what was in place before...Hard to believe.

Some way or another, the posing/third round was judged.  Because after the prejudging and the way the callouts went, Kai was lucky to make the top 10. 

[jwb]

If the judges are qualified then all votes should count just like they do in the Olympic games. Why they delete top and bottom scores is a carry over from the days judges were recruited from all the local gym owners. That way everyone voted for the guys from their gyms and it evened out as long as all gyms were represented. I think the bodybuilders would rather have scores from all 11 judges instead of having the current system. If they are going to delete the top and bottom 3 then they should recruit another 6 judges so that 11 are counted in the final tally. 5 judges shouldn't be deciding who wins. That is another way of eliminating deviation. Can you see this, good people? It may well be that the judges putting people high or lower are doing the most valid judging. If you eliminate them then you introduce unfairness and that is what they are trying to avoid.

Once a judge shows bias he is never allowed to judge again. I have had experience setting up a judging system from criteria to assessing judges. I can tell you it is not easy finding intelligent, competent, unbiased and consistent judges.

I agree they are actually increasing their error and for someone to move up they would need pretty much the entire panel to change their minds each round.

[jwb]

If they brought back judging for the posing round (of the body not the "posing/dancing/grapefruit skills") then what mix should the 3 rounds then take?

Maybe this:

Pre judging worth 40%.

Posing Round (top 15 guys) worth 20%

Final Comparisons/Posedown (top 6 guys) 40%

At least then the guys have small chance of moving up into the top 6 during the posing round but it isn't worth as much as the entire prejudging.

[Vince B]

Rounds should not be scored. Another way to introduce errors. Use whatever rounds to select the finalists and other placings. Those placings decide the outcome, not the round scores.

I honestly think Ben Weider was misguided when he selected the rounds system. He thought that would impress the Olympic committee. Ben died without seeing our sport in the Olympic games. Can anyone even imagine this could happen in the future? Only if they have a chemical Olympics!

Ben and Joe must have figured the bodybuilders were, collectively, knuckleheads so could not be entrusted to help with formulating rules, etc. The show goes on and the musclemen are almost omitted from the process. I can't see much happening by way of improvement if their athletes rep is typical of the calibre of person involved. Weinberger I do know and that guy shouldn't be anywhere around a contest. Bev is fine.

[garebear]

Wiggs, you're right. Bristol should have placed much higher.

[jwb]

Rounds should not be scored. Another way to introduce errors. Use whatever rounds to select the finalists and other placings. Those placings decide the outcome, not the round scores.

You've lost me Vince... Don't score rounds but still have rounds?

[G_Thang]

bob chick messed this up and is now avoiding it.  based on his logic...the judges are smart enough to score strength and tumbling in the high octane fitness individual rounds and use those scores to give adela another manion jr win...but they are too stupid to judge the slow pace men's individual posing whereas they just have to make sure each guy hits the mandatory poses, improves from day 1 to bump his score and gets a couple of extra % pts for a unique posing routine vs another guy who just stands and pts at the crowd.  Based on this…kai should have finished in the top 6.  

[jwb]

bob chick messed this up and is now avoiding it.  based on his logic...the judges are smart enough to score strength and tumbling in the high octane fitness individual rounds and use those scores to give adela another manion jr win...but they are too stupid to judge the slow pace men's individual posing whereas they just have to make sure each guy hits the mandatory poses, improves from day 1 to bump his score and gets a couple of extra % pts for a unique posing routine vs another guy who just stands and pts at the crowd.  Based on this…kai should have finished in the top 6.  

If you look back to when all the guys did standard routines (basically pre 1991 Vince Taylor Terminator routine - that changed everything) then the main focus of the round was for the individual to do poses that showed their physique off in it's best light doing poses that suited that particular person.

Think of Arnold in pumping iron... he did his best poses of which few were mandatories. His best shots were all those twisting 3/4 poses where he looked awesome.

Interesting to note that they let the bbers do their own poses during the prejudging back in 1975 why not allow that now somehow?

[Chick]

bob chick messed this up and is now avoiding it.  based on his logic...the judges are smart enough to score strength and tumbling in the high octane fitness individual rounds and use those scores to give adela another manion jr win...but they are too stupid to judge the slow pace men's individual posing whereas they just have to make sure each guy hits the mandatory poses, improves from day 1 to bump his score and gets a couple of extra % pts for a unique posing routine vs another guy who just stands and pts at the crowd.  Based on this…kai should have finished in the top 6.  

First, I dont make any decision single handed...anything I submit has to be approved by the IFBB Pro League and voted on. 

Second, scoring the actual posing round was dropped...because its impossible to score fairly. Dorian and Ronniw won posing round after posing round while arguably being the worst posers on the stage.

 That said, the POSING ROUND and POSEDOWN arent the big deal...the final round of COMPARISONS are.  THAT'S where the debate is, and whether it should be expanded....I personally believe ( and brought up at the time it was voted on) that anyone with a mathematical chance of moving up should be included....or just make it top 15, or whatever.  I dont like closing the door on judging at any point.  Of course you have to draw the line somewhere.....My call would be, once you make top 15,and perform a routine, then you are included in the final judging.

Understand what you're talking about before making comments, or putting words in my mouth.

[caseyviator]

i like the way the olympia was judged b4 with prejudging bein the most of the score.. then the posedown bein scored on the nite show, thats it thats all.........only thing different is i would let 10 guys go to the posedown then take ur time n move them around......the posing thing is a joke cause the guy who looks the best but is the worst poser is still gonna s win, obvously cause nothins changed he still looks the best dont matter how he moves it..u can still have a best poser trophy n check for best poser, but it should not be part of the score, its bodybuilding not dancing or ballet....the muscles still look about the same dont matter were or how you move them.

[Nasty Nate]

Here's what bothers me most about it...That half the show is judged on the second night....If that is so and posing routines are not judged...That means the only way you can move in placings is by being in the top 6....7th and lower cannot be changed period because the posing routines aren't judged and all the judging the second day happens ONLY during the posedown...Which makes the 2nd day pointless for 7th and up...

This is worse than it was before...


A fucking joke and these rules are much worse than what was in place before...Hard to believe.

I think you're misunderstanding a bit. The posing "routine" isn't judged, but they still judge the physique during the posing routines. In other words, Kai can do all the somersaults and headstands he wants, but they're only judging WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE while doing it.

[Vince B]

You've lost me Vince... Don't score rounds but still have rounds?

I don't like rounds. That one where they stand front side, etc., is bullshit and a waste of time. The NABBA system worked well for a decade and a half before the IFBB disaster with rounds. Whatever was Ben Weider thinking? Too bad he wasn't a bodybuilder. At least Joe competed in the old days.

The process is to find a winner. In contests where you have heaps of competitors you have to make groups smaller. Height and weight classes are two ways to go. However, the final Mr winner can be decided without regard to height or weight. With about 20 in the Mr Olympia you don't need classes or rounds. Except for the under 202 which is a separate contest.

Bring out the competitors in groups of 10 for the turns. Then compulsory poses. Then let everyone do his routine. Then bring out the finalists and compare until the cows come home. Places only and the lowest score wins. All votes to count. Bad judges booted out forever.

You need a process where the judges identify the top competitors. They need to see everyone do their routine and they need to see everyone do the compulsory poses. That way no one is overlooked. Then when you have the finalists you do comparisons until the winner and placegetters are picked.