High court struggles with funeral protest case

[Dos Equis]

I hope they do the right thing.

High court struggles with funeral protest case
By MARK SHERMAN
Associated Press
POSTED: 06:40 a.m. HST, Oct 06, 2010

WASHINGTON >> Supreme Court justices on Wednesday pondered the vexing question of whether the father of a dead Marine should win his lawsuit against a fundamentalist church group that picketed his son's funeral.

The complexity and weightiness of the First Amendment issue were palpable in the courtroom as justices heard arguments in the case of Albert Snyder. His son died in Iraq in 2006, and members of the Westboro Baptist Church protested the funeral to make their point that U.S. deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq are punishment for Americans' immorality, including tolerance of homosexuality and abortion.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the question is whether the First Amendment must tolerate "exploiting this bereaved family."

There was no clear answer from the court.

Snyder is asking the court to reinstate a $5 million verdict against the Westboro members who held signs outside the funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, including ones that read "Thank God for Dead Soldiers, "You're Going to Hell" and "God Hates the USA." The Marine was killed in a Humvee accident in 2006.

The church also posted a poem on its website that attacked Snyder and his ex-wife for the way they brought up Matthew.

Justice Stephen Breyer said the Internet aspect of the case troubled him because the church was saying something "very obnoxious" about private individuals.

"To what extent can they put that on the Internet?" Breyer asked. "I don't know what the rules ought to be."

The case pits Snyder's right to grieve privately against the church members' right to say what they want, no matter how offensive.

Westboro members, led by the Rev. Fred Phelps, have picketed many military funerals.

They welcome the attention the protests have brought, mocking their critics and vowing not to change their ways whatever the outcome at the Supreme Court.

"No American should ever be required to apologize for following his or her conscience," said Margie Phelps, a daughter of Fred Phelps and the lawyer who argued the case for the church.

Fundamentalist church members turned out in advance of the argument Wednesday morning, to march in front of the court with placards of the type they've been carrying to military funerals. One young boy held up a sign that reads, "God Hates You."

A line of people trying to get into the court stretched around the corner of the majestic building perched atop Capitol Hill.

Snyder won an $11 million verdict against the church for intentional infliction of emotional distress, among other claims. A judge reduced the award to $5 million before the federal appeals court in Richmond, Va., threw out the verdict altogether, citing the church's First Amendment rights.

For Snyder, the case is not about free speech but harassment. "I had one chance to bury my son and it was taken from me," Snyder said.

Forty-eight states, 42 U.S. senators and veterans groups have sided with Snyder, asking the court to shield funerals from the Phelpses' "psychological terrorism."

While distancing themselves from the church's message, media organizations, including The Associated Press, have called on the court to side with the Phelpses because of concerns that a victory for Snyder could erode speech rights.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/104422719.html

[Kazan]

Fred Phelps is a charlatan, any resemblance between him and a Christian is purely coincidental. That worthless son of a bitch makes a living off suing people, hell he sued Sears once because they delivered his TV late.
Maybe we will get lucky and during one of their protests a toyota prius's accelerator will get stuck and the whole family will get mowed down.

[BM OUT]

The bad thing about this is someone will die eventually.You get a father who lost his son in the war and he hears protests at the funeral,its only a matter of time before people die.

[Soul Crusher]

The bad thing about this is someone will die eventually.You get a father who lost his son in the war and he hears protests at the funeral,its only a matter of time before people die.

If it were my kid - I would have ZERO hesitation about taking him out.  i would not lose a second of sleep over taking these vermin out. 

[Dos Equis]

Not sure exactly how I would react, but I would find it very difficult to restrain myself.  

I think this kind of protest has the primary effect of inciting people.  Hard to distinguish this from things like the "fighting words" exception to protected speech/expression.  

[George Whorewell]

The fighting words exception is pretty much dead in constitutional jurisprudence. The best way to restrict this kind of harassment is a time/ place/ manner restriction over certain kinds of speech. Hopefully someone made that argument or brought up the possibility.

[Dos Equis]

The fighting words exception is pretty much dead in constitutional jurisprudence. The best way to restrict this kind of harassment is a time/ place/ manner restriction over certain kinds of speech. Hopefully someone made that argument or brought up the possibility.

Makes sense.

[Arnold jr]

This is a tough case, no question. No sane person can defend the Westboro church...the "God Hates You" chants are grossly amusing and contradictory. However, that type of speech has time and time again been deemed protected.

Take the Klan or Black Panthers, both groups spew very similar rhetoric to every person in ear shot at numerous places around the country. Klan members in the south still hold rallies and protest on public property for all to see and hear...Panthers still protest at the polls with as much hate and gusto as their counterparts and both are deemed "protected speech" so as long as no one persons physical safety or property is damaged.

I think the Westboro bunch is despicable and on one hand I'd love to see the court rule against them but I am always cautious of decisions that have potential to open the door to infringements on other areas that they would not have otherwise. This can be very dangerous ground, when the court started ruling by means of precedent more often at the turn of the 18th century, instead of taking the constitutionality of each case to consideration first, this opened a dangerous door for several different instances. My concern is that it might open one of those doors here.

George, I understand what you're saying about the "time & place" argument, but the view of what's proper can vary greatly from individual to individual...most people would agree that Klan and Panther rallies and protest are improper at any time and any place but their right is still protected so as long as civil order is kept.

Take a look at abortion protest in front of clinics, to me this law makes sense...regardless of your views on abortion, as I am someone who is pro-life, from a legal standpoint the protest laws make sense. There is a rule about how close you can be to the clinic when you protest for the reason of keeping protesters from interfering with clinic employees but the law does not prohibit the protesters from hurting the feelings of the clinic workers.

With all of that in mind, I think the court should consider, did the Westboro protest interfere with the funeral? No question it was beyond distasteful and I'd just assume see the Westboro church burn to the ground but was their interference? If so, that should make the answer to the question a lot easier for the court.

[George Whorewell]

A solemn, private ceremony that is quasi religious in nature ( a funeral/ burial) has the right to proceed in peace without being bombarded and harassed by a bunch of disruptive nut jobs that are disrespecting the memory of the deceased. Case closed.

To hold a march, or an organized protest, you are required to receive a permit from the municipality. The time/place and manner should be just out of earshot of the funeral procession and ceremony so as not to interfere or disrupt the burial. There are similar rules in place for numerous other forms of speech. This seems like a perfectly logical and reasonable situation to apply the same set of standards.

A reasonable society can place restrains on speech so as not to restrict it unnecessarily or silence it completely. These freaks can have their little protest before or after the funeral, or during the funeral as long as it doesn't interfere with the ceremony or harass those paying their respects to the dead.

[Dos Equis]

Yeah.  I agree with George.  Let them protest.  Just do it someplace else. 

[Arnold jr]

A solemn, private ceremony that is quasi religious in nature ( a funeral/ burial) has the right to proceed in peace without being bombarded and harassed by a bunch of disruptive nut jobs that are disrespecting the memory of the deceased. Case closed.

To hold a march, or an organized protest, you are required to receive a permit from the municipality. The time/place and manner should be just out of earshot of the funeral procession and ceremony so as not to interfere or disrupt the burial. There are similar rules in place for numerous other forms of speech. This seems like a perfectly logical and reasonable situation to apply the same set of standards.

A reasonable society can place restrains on speech so as not to restrict it unnecessarily or silence it completely. These freaks can have their little protest before or after the funeral, or during the funeral as long as it doesn't interfere with the ceremony or harass those paying their respects to the dead.

Very well said...hopefully the court will agree.

[240 is Back]

charge em with disturbing the peace.

or, better yet, give the cops an hour off work.  Let's see who comes out on top... the enraged family/friends of the deceased, or the pompous sign-holding protesters.

[outby43]

I do not see how someone can be charged with a hate crime by calling someone a black but these protesters go unscathed.  I hope someone mans up and starts blasting all of them.

[240 is Back]

super soakers filled with piss.  works every time.

[BM OUT]

super soakers filled with piss.  works every time.

I  DOUBT IT,THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE INTO GOLDEN SHOWERS.

[Kazan]

Its going to be interesting to see what happens when old Fred finally kicks the bucket, I bet we have military traveling 1000's of miles to piss on his grave

[Skeletor]

Its going to be interesting to see what happens when old Fred finally kicks the bucket, I bet we have military traveling 1000's of miles to piss on his grave

They'll probably ask people to respect their mourning and his memory and allow them to have a dignified funeral...    (like the ones they didn't let US soldiers have)

I think the Supreme Court will side with Westboro though but it would be interesting to see the votes and most importantly, the reasoning.
This is probably one of the most difficult issues for the SCOTUS.

[The Showstoppa]

Has always surprised me that this guy is still alive. 

[Cy Tolliver]

im not defending these guys

but i wonder if god could be very happy with us after what we done to the innocent citizens of iraq

[Kazan]

So you randomly grabbed some pictures from the net and assume it was US military? Here's an idea go to michaelyon-online.com if you really want to know what goes on in Iraq/Afghanistan. He is an independent journalist who supports his imbed  status with private donations.

[Cy Tolliver]

So you randomly grabbed some pictures from the net and assume it was US military? Here's an idea go to michaelyon-online.com if you really want to know what goes on in Iraq/Afghanistan. He is an independent journalist who supports his imbed  status with private donations.

your denying that innocent people, children (thousand of them, hundreds of thousands? have been killed and were (american citizens) have their blood on our hands for allowing this immoral unjust war to have taken place

[Soul Crusher]

your denying that innocent people, children (thousand of them, hundreds of thousands? have been killed and were (american citizens) have their blood on our hands for allowing this immoral unjust war to have taken place

  

Do you want me to start submitting beheading and stoning pics? 

[Skeletor]

im not defending these guys

but i wonder if god could be very happy with us after what we done to the innocent citizens of iraq

The Westboro christians assert that due to homosexuality which they consider a sin that justifies death, "god" is punishing the US by killing US soldiers. Essentially they rejoice in the death of Americans because of their religion and their god. Not much different than muslims who cheer when an American dies.

Civilian casualties, on any side, are always horrendous and inexcusable but this case doesn't have to do with civilian casualties, as the Westboro christians care not for civilian casualties but only for homosexuality as a sin and they rejoice in American deaths. Demanding accountability for civilian deaths and atrocities is one thing, applauding the death of US citizens (like the Westboro christians do) is despicable and traitorous. Now, whether "god" would be happy with civilian casualties, probably, given the amount of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

[Cy Tolliver]

 

Do you want me to start submitting beheading and stoning pics? 

so because they kill innocents we should too?

 

[Cy Tolliver]

The Westboro christians assert that due to homosexuality which they consider a sin that justifies death, "god" is punishing the US by killing US soldiers. Essentially they rejoice in the death of Americans because of their religion and their god. Not much different than muslims who cheer when an American dies.

Civilian casualties, on any side, are always horrendous and inexcusable but this case doesn't have to do with civilian casualties, as the Westboro christians care not for civilian casualties but only for homosexuality as a sin and they rejoice in American deaths. Demanding accountability for civilian deaths and atrocities is one thing, applauding the death of US citizens (like the Westboro christians do) is despicable and traitorous. Now, whether "god" would be happy with civilian casualties, probably, given the amount of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

I see