Vince - post re muscle hypertrophy

[Lion666]

can u post up that write up you had on muscle hypertrophy, think u had ur own theories and old school methods mixd in the post as well... it was a thread u had years back...
i made this request in the arnie thread, about him beat sergio...
this

this is for mr canada not the other vince

[lovemonkey]

lol you better not be referring to Goodrum

[Vince B]

Hell, if you read these forums you know that Vince G CSN MFT PHD knows infinitely more than I do about bodybuilding and training. Hope this helps.

[Lion666]

Hell, if you read these forums you know that Vince G CSN MFT PHD knows infinitely more than I do about bodybuilding and training. Hope this helps.

of course thats why theres threads requesting he make post re training...

so when u find the time vince and if u remember the write ups, going back some years here, it'd be cool if u could make that post...

[StanZoLOL]

This would be interesting. Post it up, Vince.

[Vince B]

I would need a book to explain everything. Resident experts all know vastly more than I do. That is why they can criticize what I post.

There are some questions that most trainers don't factor into their theories.

Number 1. How do you avoid the repeated bout effect? In other words, if you train really hard your body will adapt but then you have to do something considerably harder the next time to keep that muscle growing. How much harder is unknown.

Number 2. Is it possible to keep a muscle constantly growing week by week?

Number 3. Is there any feedback mechanism to indicate rapid growth and therefore guide training?

Number 4. Are there any examples of rapid hypertrophy in the literature? What protocols were effective?

Number 5. Can animals studies be applied to humans?

[Tito24]

i rather hear this from goodrum basile.

[StanZoLOL]

I'll take a stab at this......

Number 1. How do you avoid the repeated bout effect? In other words, if you train really hard your body will adapt but then you have to do something considerably harder the next time to keep that muscle growing. How much harder is unknown.

The current ideas that make sense to me to avoid this would be along the lines of purposefully slightly detraining ('deloading' or DC's 'cruise') for 1-3 weeks. i.e. 2 steps forward, one step back. That has worked pretty well for me. Or something along the lines of what Poliquin suggests by making dramatic changes in the routine every 2-3 months. (3 months of Doggcrapp, 3 months of german volume, 3 months of 5x5, etc.)

Number 2. Is it possible to keep a muscle constantly growing week by week?

In my experience, no, muscle/strength gains aren't linear.

Number 3. Is there any feedback mechanism to indicate rapid growth and therefore guide training?

Soreness, progression in weights/reps, appetite increase, even the pump is a pretty good indicator of how well an exercise is targeting the area.

Number 4. Are there any examples of rapid hypertrophy in the literature? What protocols were effective?

Colorado Experiment? lol

Number 5. Can animals studies be applied to humans?[/color]

Probably to some women I have had.......

[Vince B]

The Colorado experiment didn't fool anyone. Not a fair dinkum experiment. Casey merely rapidly regained much of his lost size.

Btw, I am excluding all drugs from this discussion.

It is possible to grow rapidly and continuously for at least a month and perhaps longer per muscle. Gains should be linear and regular.

Typically changing routines won't avoid the RBE.

Two feedback mechanisms are measureable gains in size and DOMS. It is controversial how important DOMS is and even if it is related to hypertrophy.

[StanZoLOL]

The Colorado experiment didn't fool anyone. Not a fair dinkum experiment. Casey merely rapidly regained much of his lost size.

I agree.

It is possible to grow rapidly and continuously for at least a month and perhaps longer per muscle. Gains should be linear and regular.

"At least a month..." doesn't sound that linear. That is about the norm. Blast for 5-6 weeks, maybe even a couple of months, then deload. When I said gains aren't linear I mean that, generally, at least strength gains, can't be made weekly starting Jan 1 and increase reps/weight every time until the end of December. The body needs some kind of deload. Period.

Now maybe you could switch to some kind of volume/different kind of loading while you are cruising and keep muscle gains going more linearly. But... that requires a routine change.

[Vince B]

By linear I mean you will be able to measure the gains and they will be the same after each training day. If injury can be avoided I see no reason why growth can't continue. Vast changes in protocols and exercises are probably not required.

Consult Antonio's experiments with fowl and their anterior latissimus dorsi muscles.

[StanZoLOL]

. If injury can be avoided I see no reason why growth can't continue. Vast changes in protocols and exercises are probably not required.

Sounds good in theory, but in practice gains seem to stall. Can you write out what you think a good, typical weekly routine would look like?

Consult Antonio's experiments with fowl and their anterior latissimus dorsi muscles.

I'll look into that - thanks.

[Vince B]

Everyone thinks the routine is the important thing. Nope, but of course it is not unimportant. What I wanted to do was do a thought experiment about the possibility of rapid, sustained hypertrophy. If it were possible could we reverse engineer the gains and come up with a workout by workout strategy? Fowl managed to gain something like 200 to 300% larger muscles in 30 days. That obviously exceeds anything likely with humans but the experiment might have value re protocols and strategies.

The key to solving this problem is to avoid the RBE. If you have to deal with that like countless thousands fail daily at doing then you are not going to succeed. You literally have to rethink the very tenets of bodybuilding. We all were taught that you stressed a muscle then waited for it to over-compensate through recovery. Guys like Arthur Jones noticed that longer times between training sessions were required and just about everyone out there started resting longer between training days. Eventually I think the idea was that retraining should occur about twice a week. Bryan Haycock believes that you should retrain a muscle every 48 hours because it no longer is creating new muscle after that. It appears that Haycock is on the right track here, but only partly so.

[Voice of Doom]

screw the haters Vince...I'd like to hear your ideas!   I've been looking to change up my routine recently, post up a monthly training regime.

[Vince B]

Have a read of this article re animal hypertrophy experiments. 

http://www.jospt.org/members/getfile.asp?id=1447

[Fallsview]

Vince "Yoda" Goodrum is officially the mose knowledgeable man on this board.  Rejoice!

[tbombz]

you do seem to have some very good ideas on training vince. are you suggesting training every 48 hours or twice a week or were those just examples ? you are doing a very good job at explaining some of the reasoning you have behind your training theory(s), but you havent been specific at all as to what you think is the correct way to train... if you could go into some detail, id enjoy reading your thoughts and am open to trying them out. im particularly interested in what you have to say about training frequency and the repeated bout effect

[Cyttorak]

Yes vince make this post

can u post up that write up you had on muscle hypertrophy, think u had ur own theories and old school methods mixd in the post as well... it was a thread u had years back..

[dr.chimps]

Hell, if you read these forums you know that Vince G CSN MFT PHD knows infinitely more than I do about bodybuilding and training. Hope this helps.

Translation: 67.5% flotsam: 32.5% jetsam.    

[OneMoreRep]

Translation: 67.5% flotsam: 32.5% jetsam.    

"1"

[Vince B]

Look, if intellectual dickheads like Chimps is going to contribute sweet bugger all then I won't be posting anything further here.

[no one]

you do seem to have some very good ideas on training vince. are you suggesting training every 48 hours or twice a week or were those just examples ? you are doing a very good job at explaining some of the reasoning you have behind your training theory(s), but you havent been specific at all as to what you think is the correct way to train... if you could go into some detail, id enjoy reading your thoughts and am open to trying them out. im particularly interested in what you have to say about training frequency and the repeated bout effect

i'll bite.

im curious too.

[Vince B]

There are lots and lots of guys who want information. Vince Gironda said that wherever he went people wanted information. That hasn't changed. What I have to offer is a theory and a strategy that actually works. Of course it takes above average intelligence to actually be able to apply this theory. If you are a knucklehead then you will insist on sets and reps and that is clearly not going to be sufficient for these wannabes. It isn't about sets and reps. It isn't about frequency. Yet these factors are very important. How can that be?

No one can present a theory based on sets and reps and guarantee results. There are many reasons why most fail. Let us take a specific muscle as an example. Biceps. Now this is a muscle that we all love to show if we have any bulk there. Even women love to flex their biceps to show they have been in the gym. Okay, what does the biceps do. Well, according to anatomy and physiology texts biceps have three functions. The first everyone knows and that is flexion or rotation. Yes, doing various curls. The second function is supination. You use this function a bit when doing dumbbell curls while seated or on an incline. The third function is not that important and it is to slightly raise the arm at the end of curls. So when you finish a curl you can lift the arm higher and this further stresses the biceps.

So much for this anatomy lesson. Well, let us approach this from another direction. When is the last time you knew your biceps were growing? When was the last time you actually got those biceps sore after a hard workout? Since we use biceps and forearms in most upperbody training it is difficult to get these muscles sore. My point here is what would happen if we could easily get them sore? Would we witness rapid growth? Absolutely. If we could keep them sore then they should keep growing rapidly. No one knows the precise time to retrain but if Haycock is right then somewhere around two or maybe three days will be required. You never let the muscle recover because then the RBE pops up and you are never going to get bigger arms. That is why millions of guys are blasting away and not growing much at all.

[dr.chimps]

^^^ Hehe. Three large(ish) paragraphs and you've really never (definitively) said anything. And you wonder why you attract propwash!?    

[Vince B]

Let us discuss the technology of training. This is a subject overlooked by many people. If you have actually tried to get other people to grow you know there are practical problems in the gym. The plain, unvarnished truth is movement complicates matters immensely. Things may appear the same but that isn't easy to prove and know in the gym.

I think it takes perhaps an exceptional intelligence to build large muscles. This seems strange. Why do we need to be smart to get big? Well, you could be a natural and fluke it. However, you have to be lucky and actually do everything right in order to grow really big. This is not easy to do and that is why so few actually get big.

Let us get back to the biceps. You have to select an exercise that will actually put mechanical tension on your biceps. I can't tell you how many serious bodybuilders cheat in most of their exercises. Instead of putting mechanical tension on their muscles they try to lift heavy weights to impress others in the gym. That is natural and we all are guilty to some degree or other. However, you cannot cheat the hyerptrophy response. If you don't put the muscle under severe mechanical tension it cannot grow. It is as simple as that. If your biceps isn't very sore the next couple of days following a workout then you are simply not growing bigger biceps. It then makes a big difference how you train and what exercise you are using. If you have access to my biceps-supinator machine you should be able to have a brutal workout and involve all three functions of the biceps. You can do regular curls then do supination at the end to further exhaust the biceps. Then you can lift the arms at the end to recruit more fibres.