Objective critique about bikini, new WPD and the end of female BB

[Howard]

Like most men, I enjoy looking at a pretty, sexy girl in a skimpy bikini. The new bikini division and woman's figure comprised at least 2/3 of the entrants at the recent NPC nationals. These new divisions seem popular and have fit, attractive females featured on stage.

So what's the problem? Simple. It isn't BODYBUILING. It's a swimsuit contest. The majority of those on stage at this years NPC nationals were NOT bodybuilders.  Both male and female bodybuilders have used more extreme levels of drugs, starting in the 1960's with moderate usegage. With the top female pros this increase in androgenic compounds have caused the top place winners to look less female.

Despite this UN- natural* look, the judges kept picking the big freaky girls over more feminine ones. Bob Chick is right, this result has plenty of places to put the blame. The reality is that this UN-natural* look is the direct result of extreme drug use. ( *spelling intended for effect). If you stopped the extreme drug use, you wouldn't get the extreme androgenic look. The females could be on stage as flexing BODYBUILDERS and not some diluted down version of it.

[Wiggs]

Yeah Howie cause all the men have a natural look ....I see what you're saying though.

[G_Thang]

the bottom line howard is the ifbb and npc dont have a clue

bikini is pretty much defined.  the only judging problem is dealing with girls with big rear ends like melo.

fitness - it's all about the  routine.  there's nothing to think about vs the other categories.

figure vs wpd - these two are going to be fucked up.  there's no way around it.  chick told a female bber in the other thread that she should do a wpd show about 2 weeks.  then...chick says cheryl brown is a good fit for wpd.  do you see the problem?  cheryl brown cant be compared to a bber in off-season let alone 2 weeks.  

the lazy ass ifbb and npc needs to develop catalogs of physique types for these two division.

if the commadores are correct about figures...then cheryl brown is a brick house and her curves are template for a woman in figure.  how the f##k can you put her in wpd with tone down bbers i will never know? and i'll go back again and say erin is an excellent fit for figure.

so...who ends up in wpd?  



figure for sure


medina is the template for wpd, definitely a cut above erin and cheryl but not there as far as bbing goes.


i'd say you'd have to tone down this physique because she is pushing it more than medine but is for good wpd


2 wks out and she  could do a wpd show.  
no way...given she is pushing the envelope and would move the division  back to iris.  she would have to bring her physique in line with  an
ava cowan

monica brant could be a good fit for wpd...given the figure judges said she was too hard.

anyway...get off of your lazy asses and build physique catalogs based on the best structures and study those, look over those before each show.
?
shit...manion spends a million on printing for the npc  .  how the hell he cant get this done ?

[Howard]

Yeah Howie cause all the men have a natural look ....I see what you're saying though.

I agree tthe men are just as extreme with the drugged look, no question.
It just doesn't look as absurd on the men for whatever reason.
I say, stick with the actual rules and try to keep the drug use down to minimum levels and under some kind of control.

G-thang- They don't even display scores-placements, so obviously, they ae not going to have objective , standards and rules.
You are a St Aug man, so you can THINK, unlike some of those in BB.
Bob is a smart guy, but by avoiding the drug issue via another new category, just sweeps it under the rug

[Azure]

Back in the olden days didn't they have beauty pageants along with the bodybuilding shows?  I mean back in the 50's and 60's.

Bikini sells well and more people can do it unlike figure which has really evolved into lightweight female bodybuilding...when fitness first started in the late 80's early 90's, they looked more like the bikini girls now.

The problem is simply the judging Howard.  It seems with every single division within a few years the physiques evolve into an extreme and they come up with another gimmick to tone things down.  I was saying, "What is going to happen when they turn bikini back into figure?"  Where will they go from there?

This new men's division is silly as well.  Why don't they just face reality and stop scoring the men's division in favor of physiques that are blocky, ugly, and have guts. 

[MB]

The problem is simply the judging Howard.  It seems with every single division within a few years the physiques evolve into an extreme and they come up with another gimmick to tone things down.  I was saying, "What is going to happen when they turn bikini back into figure?"  Where will they go from there?

This new men's division is silly as well.  Why don't they just face reality and stop scoring the men's division in favor of physiques that are blocky, ugly, and have guts. 

Too late, they've already turned bikini back into figure.  By giving the Olympia title to Sonia Gonzales, a former figure competitor, the judges are already sending the message to girls like Amanda Latona to "step it up".  In a non-IFBB bikini contest, Gonzales would not have won that show. 

[Howard]

Back in the olden days didn't they have beauty pageants along with the bodybuilding shows?  I mean back in the 50's and 60's.

Bikini sells well and more people can do it unlike figure which has really evolved into lightweight female bodybuilding...when fitness first started in the late 80's early 90's, they looked more like the bikini girls now.

The problem is simply the judging Howard.  It seems with every single division within a few years the physiques evolve into an extreme and they come up with another gimmick to tone things down.  I was saying, "What is going to happen when they turn bikini back into figure?"  Where will they go from there?

This new men's division is silly as well.  Why don't they just face reality and stop scoring the men's division in favor of physiques that are blocky, ugly, and have guts. 

Bob already laid out the idea that we have plenty of blame to go around and obviously the judges were a part of that.
I can tell ya from personal experience that if you try to judge by the letter of the rules, your scores and placement might be the ones thrown out when they drop the high and low. ;-)
NOBODY seem to want to deal honestly with the drug issue or or even talk about it in a position of authority, THAT is the big problem.

[Chick]

the bottom line howard is the ifbb and npc dont have a clue


We have a clue, but we also have a lot of considerations when were looking at dealing with a problem head on, and a sport thats been around (and spiraled out of control) since 1980

bikini is pretty much defined.  the only judging problem is dealing with girls with big rear ends like melo.

Not a problem for me...just put them in FIRST!!

fitness - it's all about the  routine.  there's nothing to think about vs the other categories.

agreed

figure vs wpd - these two are going to be fucked up.  there's no way around it.

Sure there is...they will be two DIFFERENT sports with two sets of different criteria...not a problem at all. Problem was, there wasnt a bookend at the other sider of figure...except for FBB, which is (was) too extreme. 

 chick told a female bber in the other thread that she should do a wpd show about 2 weeks.  then...chick says cheryl brown is a good fit for wpd.  do you see the problem?  cheryl brown cant be compared to a bber in off-season let alone 2 weeks.

She shouldnt be able to be campared to a FBB...thats the whole point.  You're alo assuming that some of the girls mentioned as possible examples would look the exact same way as they do now competing in figure....they wouldnt.  If left to not have to scale it back for figure, they would be a bit more curvy/ fuller...enough to look nice, not enough to look masculine

the lazy ass ifbb and npc needs to develop catalogs of physique types for these two division.

We are

if the commadores are correct about figures...then cheryl brown is a brick house and her curves are template for a woman in figure.  how the f##k can you put her in wpd with tone down bbers i will never know? and i'll go back again and say erin is an excellent fit for figure.

so...who ends up in wpd?  

You're forgetting the one intricate part which sets them apart....posing. the art and display of the female physique will be what defines them....they not just doing quarter turns.  Who ends up in WP?  Women who want to enjoy training and competing, but not sacrifice looking feminine for the pursuit of muscle/ size/ conditioning...



figure for sure


medina is the template for wpd, definitely a cut above erin and cheryl but not there as far as bbing goes.


i'd say you'd have to tone down this physique because she is pushing it more than medine but is for good wpd


2 wks out and she  could do a wpd show.  
no way...given she is pushing the envelope and would move the division  back to iris.  she would have to bring her physique in line with  an
ava cowan

monica brant could be a good fit for wpd...given the figure judges said she was too hard.

anyway...get off of your lazy asses and build physique catalogs based on the best structures and study those, look over those before each show.
?
shit...manion spends a million on printing for the npc  .  how the hell he cant get this done ?

[Chick]

Like most men, I enjoy looking at a pretty, sexy girl in a skimpy bikini.
The new bikini division and woman's figure comprised at least 2/3 of the entrants at the recent NPC nationals.
These new divisions seem popular and have fit, attractive females featured on stage.
So what's the problem? Simple. It isn't BODYBUILING. It's a swimsuit contest.
The majority of those on stage at this years NPC nationals were NOT bodybuilders.

Both male and female bodybuilders have used more extreme levels of drugs, starting in the 1960's with moderate usegage.
With the top female pros this increase in androgenic compounds have caused the top place winners to look less female.
Despite this UN- natural* look, the judges kept picking the big freaky girls over more feminine ones.
Bob Chick is right, this result has plenty of places to put the blame.

The reality is that this UN-natural* look is the direct result of extreme drug use. ( *spelling intended for effect)
If you stopped the extreme drug use, you wouldn't get the extreme androgenic look.
The females could be on stage as flexing BODYBUILDERS and not some diluted down version of it.

Problem is, Howie...there is no way to put a cap on progress, and in BB (male or female) progress is getting bigger, more muscular, more conditioned, dryer, etc....

To hold back FBB to something no one will agree on as the "ideal look", is defeating at best and impossible at the least...this is like penalizing a runner because he was "too fast"..."well, you can be fast, just not THAT fast, so we decided to place you in 3rd..."??

As far back as 1982...within the first YEAR or two of modern WBB...there was already discussion as to how the women were becoming "too muscular" and how they could deal with that, and hjow they didnt want it to go in "that" direction....ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO...!  There have been no less than 7 official attempts since that time,  to "tone it down", scale it back, reduce it, make it more feminine, etc....

Bottom line is this:  It doesnt work for the obvious reason that it CANT WORK. 

[Tito24]

[MB]

Problem is, Howie...there is no way to put a cap on progress, and in BB (male or female) progress is getting bigger, more muscular, more conditioned, dryer, etc....

Drug testing.  That caps progress and stops it in it's tracks. 

[Chick]

Drug testing.  That caps progress and stops it in it's tracks. 

That has its own assortmnt of problems, issues, etc...

No need to test if the criteria dictates the result....if it's not BB, then it doiesnt follow the same criteria.

Translation:  we can achieve the same result without having to open that can of worms

[Azure]

Too late, they've already turned bikini back into figure.  By giving the Olympia title to Sonia Gonzales, a former figure competitor, the judges are already sending the message to girls like Amanda Latona to "step it up".  In a non-IFBB bikini contest, Gonzales would not have won that show. 

Then what will they come up with next 

[MB]

Then what will they come up with next 

A pasties division?  Pretty much anything to up the numbers and whore themselves out for more income.

[Howard]

That has its own assortmnt of problems, issues, etc...

No need to test if the criteria dictates the result....if it's not BB, then it doiesnt follow the same criteria.

Translation:  we can achieve the same result without having to open that can of worms

I understand on a very personal level how drug testing can be a nightmare.
I was an AAU official when they got sued by drug test failures in the Mr A 15 years ago.
They went bankrupt and the show ended. No more Mr America.
I would think that the IFBB  could do drug testing properly,if they had to.

My main issue isn't that the NPC/IFBB has some extra classes of bikini or fitness, etc
It is the vast majority of the show at the NPC Nationals now .
It is going to be about 15% male bodybuilding and the rest some form of bathing suit contest. C'mon, don't piss on my leg and tell me its' raining here Bob hehehehe.
Oh well at least you provide some intelligent rationale for the new changes. I am just going to do my own thing and support what I enjoy.

[Chick]

Then what will they come up with next 

Sonia looks much different than when she won in the figure div....

Personally, I thought Amanda looked great and could have been higher...

[Wiggs]

Problem is, Howie...there is no way to put a cap on progress, and in BB (male or female) progress is getting bigger, more muscular, more conditioned, dryer, etc....

To hold back FBB to something no one will agree on as the "ideal look", is defeating at best and impossible at the least...this is like penalizing a runner because he was "too fast"..."well, you can be fast, just not THAT fast, so we decided to place you in 3rd..."??

As far back as 1982...within the first YEAR or two of modern WBB...there was already discussion as to how the women were becoming "too muscular" and how they could deal with that, and hjow they didnt want it to go in "that" direction....ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO...!  There have been no less than 7 official attempts since that time,  to "tone it down", scale it back, reduce it, make it more feminine, etc....

Bottom line is this:  It doesnt work for the obvious reason that it CANT WORK. 

Well Bobert, in terms of men, when you describe progress as only more muscularity, conditioning, and the ability to get dry (two of which aren't even the result of gym time as much as it is who has the best guru) and leave out proportions, tie-ins, POSING and other things that have now become small details, well you get guys like Kai drugging it up and looking like a mess on stage...I know I give you a hard time on this stuff that's only because you are the only rep we (fans) can complain to and I'd like to see the sport return to it's glory day in the mid 90s...The funny thing is you guys have the power to do so but apparently don't believe there's much of  problem...The difference between someone having a Hany Rambod or George Farrah in their corner and doing everything themselves can be the difference between 1st and 10th place...that's kind of sad when you think about it...Put in 12-16 weeks of prep and it's all down the tube cause Hany or George did or didn't dry you out...

As far as female bodybuilding goes, I remember the memo that came out in the last feeble attempt to  tell women to tone it down...To sum it up it said, tone it down 20%....Fucking brilliant.  Please show me a picture of 20% vs 19% or 21%....They really put a lot thought into that one. ...How about showing these broads an example so they can see it...Example a picture of Corey Everson in all mandatory shots or whomever they have in mind...Then anyone who shows up looking like the crypt keeper place them last or dq....it may take a couple shows or maybe the whole year but the message will be sent and these broads will comply...

[G_Thang]

Sonia looks much different than when she won in the figure div....

Personally, I thought Amanda looked great and could have been higher...

instead of these apple and orange posts...go get the ifbb and the npc to build catalogs.  that's the only way you will get this right.  latona, anderson,  and melo are your apex bikini.  i havent paid much attention to gonzales or made comparisons...so i cant comment on her winning the bikini.  i thought it was melo's show.  btw the complaint on melo is her rear end and hard midsection...so how does a former figure with a hard midsection beat her  ?
 
again with figure...why the hell is figure a shoulder contest when it's about a woman's FIGURE?  two different generations and you get the same thing with anja langer vs cheryl brown...the brick house dimensions.  you have to revamp figure before you are start talking about who goes in which area.   and you can ONLY do that will a photo catalog...not some stupid ass book with 500 pages of instructions.




get the damn structures correct first than worry about jan tana, and other BS criterias.   

[Howard]

Well Bobert, in terms of men, when you describe progress as only more muscularity, conditioning, and the ability to get dry (two of which aren't even the result of gym time as much as it is who has the best guru) and leave out proportions, tie-ins, POSING and other things that have now become small details, well you get guys like Kai drugging it up and looking like a mess on stage...I know I give you a hard time on this stuff that's only because you are the only rep we (fans) can complain to and I'd like to see the sport return to it's glory day in the mid 90s...The funny thing is you guys have the power to do so but apparently don't believe there's much of  problem...The difference between someone having a Hany Rambod or George Farrah in their corner and doing everything themselves can be the difference between 1st and 10th place...that's kind of sad when you think about it...Put in 12-16 weeks of prep and it's all down the tube cause Hany or George did or didn't dry you out...

As far as female bodybuilding goes, I remember the memo that came out in the last feeble attempt to  tell women to tone it down...To sum it up it said, tone it down 20%....Fucking brilliant.  Please show me a picture of 20% vs 19% or 21%....They really put a lot thought into that one. ...How about showing these broads an example so they can see it...Example a picture of Corey Everson in all mandatory shots or whomever they have in mind...Then anyone who shows up looking like the crypt keeper place them last or dq....it may take a couple shows or maybe the whole year but the message will be sent and these broads will comply...

Great post!
If a girl who is ripped and has decent size and looks feminine (like this yrs national NPC champ), shows up , are they going to mark her last? If not the new WPD is back to square one.

[G_Thang]

Well Bobert, in terms of men, when you describe progress as only more muscularity, conditioning, and the ability to get dry (two of which aren't even the result of gym time as much as it is who has the best guru) and leave out proportions, tie-ins, POSING and other things that have now become small details, well you get guys like Kai drugging it up and looking like a mess on stage...I know I give you a hard time on this stuff that's only because you are the only rep we (fans) can complain to and I'd like to see the sport return to it's glory day in the mid 90s...The funny thing is you guys have the power to do so but apparently don't believe there's much of  problem...The difference between someone having a Hany Rambod or George Farrah in their corner and doing everything themselves can be the difference between 1st and 10th place...that's kind of sad when you think about it...Put in 12-16 weeks of prep and it's all down the tube cause Hany or George did or didn't dry you out...

As far as female bodybuilding goes, I remember the memo that came out in the last feeble attempt to  tell women to tone it down...To sum it up it said, tone it down 20%....Fucking brilliant.  Please show me a picture of 20% vs 19% or 21%....They really put a lot thought into that one. ...How about showing these broads an example so they can see it...Example a picture of Corey Everson in all mandatory shots or whomever they have in mind...Then anyone who shows up looking like the crypt keeper place them last or dq....it may take a couple shows or maybe the whole year but the message will be sent and these broads will comply...

i've already said this with women.  THEY NEED PHOTO CATALOGS especially for the judges to study before every contest even at the neighborhood amateur level.   

[Wiggs]

i've already said this with women.  THEY NEED PHOTO CATALOGS especially for the judges to study before every contest even at the neighborhood amateur level.    

Look at the order of the postings...I said it first, ricky retardo...but yes, we agree.

BTW as long as you refer to me as" toby", I'll keep coming up with these little names for you.

[Chick]

Great post!
If a girl who is ripped and has decent size and looks feminine (like this yrs national NPC champ), shows up , are they going to mark her last? If not the new WPD is back to square one.

Words like "ripped", dry, hard, diced, etc...will not be of any use in the WPD. Thats not the criteria thats being drawn up.

Key words would be feminine, athletic, tone, beautiful, graceful, etc...

[Wiggs]

Words like "ripped", dry, hard, diced, etc...will not be of any use in the WPD. Thats not the criteria thats being drawn up.

Key words would be feminine, athletic, tone, beautiful, graceful, etc...

So Bob, are you going to respond or does the truth hurt that much?

[Chick]

Well Bobert, in terms of men, when you describe progress as only more muscularity, conditioning, and the ability to get dry (two of which aren't even the result of gym time as much as it is who has the best guru) and leave out proportions, tie-ins, POSING and other things that have now become small details, well you get guys like Kai drugging it up and looking like a mess on stage...I know I give you a hard time on this stuff that's only because you are the only rep we (fans) can complain to and I'd like to see the sport return to it's glory day in the mid 90s...

As would I, my friend...it's a tough road to keep the guys in check, imagine it now for the federation to keep a handle on the girls!  Same problem we have applies to both genders....it's tough to put a governor on progress, and in BB, that means those words you describe

The funny thing is you guys have the power to do so but apparently don't believe there's much of  problem...The difference between someone having a Hany Rambod or George Farrah in their corner and doing everything themselves can be the difference between 1st and 10th place...that's kind of sad when you think about it...Put in 12-16 weeks of prep and it's all down the tube cause Hany or George did or didn't dry you out...

The "power" is in the judging, and it's very tough to take out the freak factor in a sport that is based on looking out of the norm.  

As far as female bodybuilding goes, I remember the memo that came out in the last feeble attempt to  tell women to tone it down...To sum it up it said, tone it down 20%....Fucking brilliant.  Please show me a picture of 20% vs 19% or 21%....They really put a lot thought into that one.


THat was the 7th attempt to bring it down to something respectable, it was the right idea, but th wrong application....20% needs to be the MAX awarded to muscularity by a preponderance of the scoring....80% going to symmetry, proportion, shape, tone, presentation, posing, beauty, etc...

...How about showing these broads an example so they can see it...Example a picture of Corey Everson in all mandatory shots or whomever they have in mind...Then anyone who shows up looking like the crypt keeper place them last or dq....it may take a couple shows or maybe the whole year but the message will be sent and these broads will comply...


There will be no doubt what these girls need to look like and whats expected from the panel...I'm on it like white on rice!

[G_Thang]

Look at the order of the postings...I said it first, ricky retardo...but yes, we agree.

BTW as long as you refer to me as" toby", I'll keep coming up with these little names for you.

actually...i put "catalog" in the other 7 page thread 2 days ago...but yes...we agree.

dude...i so love calling you toby, guess i'll have to wean myself off of it.