I actually was mentioning those advantages Ronnie would have in shape, muscle bellies and separation that would help in the case of him looking equally as big as Dorian. Of course Dorian has some muscle groups with better shape or better bellies.
So here you're agreeing its a possibility Ronnie would look just as big despite being lighter.
I've seen the video of both contests and let me tell you the only two things bigger I saw on Dorian were his back and his waist/gut.
Since I wasn't there I could be wrong, but nowhere in that McGough quote there is something that says Dorian didn't have a bloated gut or especifically bigger than 93.
So since it hard to call who had the best conditioning through pics and vids, you have to rely on other poeple. Good, your quote from McGough said that Ronnie was never harder or drier than Dorian, but he didn't say he wasn't equally as dry or hard.
Here you are also admitting Ronnie could be on par with conditioning.
Dorian has the advantage on density, but Ronnie has his advantages too.
Ok lets give Dorian posing, but its not a night & day difference.
inferior conditioning? You just said conditioning could be equal....
less muscular bulk? we just established Ronnie could look just as big as him (Dorian's advantage in 'bulk' wouldn't mean much)
balance & proportions? yes
part of symmetry goes to Ronnie
shape goes to Ronnie
overall muscularity goes to Ronnie
So you can make assumptions of what he meant, but I can't? gotcha. 
He doesn't want to come off as arrogant? How about the times he said 94, 95, etc. weren't even close? Or when he said the 93 b&w photos are the best one taken? He is not someone to care about not coming off as arrogant.
If he honestly doesn't know (being an IFBB judge), then it means it would be a tough contest to judge = close contest.
What's so hard for you to understand this?
I actually was mentioning those advantages Ronnie would have in shape, muscle bellies and separation that would help in the case of him looking equally as big as Dorian. Of course Dorian has some muscle groups with better shape or better bellies.
So here you're agreeing its a possibility Ronnie would look just as big despite being lighter.
actually you made a lot of blanket statements without being specific and I doubt Ronnie would look just as big being 13lbs lighter , and if we're talking about Dorian at his best B&W pre-contest at 269lbs than that discrepancy would be much greater
I've seen the video of both contests and let me tell you the only two things bigger I saw on Dorian were his back and his waist/gut.
Since I wasn't there I could be wrong, but nowhere in that McGough quote there is something that says Dorian didn't have a bloated gut or especifically bigger than 93.
I disagree in some shots from 93 Dorian looks thinner from the same in 95 where he looks fuller , he doesn't say Dorian did have a bloated gut he didn't say a lot of things you seem to try and read to much into what he didn't say. When he said he was even harder in 95 that means he was carrying more dense muscle and less fat so when you type his gut was bloated and most of the weight is there it's contradictory to reality
So since it hard to call who had the best conditioning through pics and vids, you have to rely on other poeple. Good, your quote from McGough said that Ronnie was never harder or drier than Dorian, but he didn't say he wasn't equally as dry or hard.
Here you are also admitting Ronnie could be on par with conditioning.
Dorian has the advantage on density, but Ronnie has his advantages too.
It's hard to tell on pics and video alone because of the quality varies , the technology from when Dorian competed to when Ronnie did changed ( digital anyone? ) it's hard but no impossible , it's easy to to see Dorian 1995 was much better conditioned than Ronnie 2000 but I don't go by pics & videos alone I like to have evidence that all converges to reach the same conclusion
There you go again , he didn't say Ronnie was close , give me a break he didn't say a lot of things when asked if Ronnie 2001 was harder or drier than Dorian he said he NEVER was , that alone tells us he wasn't close it's definitive and you have to understand the pinnacle of great conditioning , plenty of guys are dry but don't carry much muscle , plenty of guys are hard but aren't full , the epitome is being
dense , dry and full while carrying the most muscle it's next to impossible to tie these all together
it's much better to be 269lbs , granite hard , bone dry and full than 247lbs and the same ( and that's playing Devil's advocate ) maybe Ronnie was as hard and dry as Dorian in 2001 but he wasn't nearly carrying as much muscle in the process , you keep admitting Dorian has an advantage in density but you don't understand how much that's worth
Density - Muscle hardness, which is also related to muscu-lar definition. A bodybuilder can be well-defined and still have excess fat within each major muscle complex. But when he has muscle density, even this intramuscular fat has been eliminated. A combination of muscle mass and muscle density is highly prized among all competitive bodybuilders. This sums up Dorian , his conditioning is legendary
Just as Haney set a new standard in bodybuilding with his unprecedented combination of size, shape and conditioning, the man who would inherit his mantle, Dorian Yates--slightly shorter, yet heavier than Haney--introduced
a new level of density, coining the term "grainy." Yates' brief, high-intensity workouts fueled his reputation as one of history's hardest trainers.
How can I describe the man? Let me start with the fact that , when he won the Olympia lasy year , Dorian weighed a massive 244
RIPPED pounds. This year he was just as
RIPPED and weighed 256 pounds! Off-season he had been no less than a
phenomenal hard 295.
Shawn Perine Ironage May 9 2009
Although I prefer the Reeves-Zane-Paris physique, I still contend that there was never a more complete, muscular human being to walk the earth than Dorian on the day Kevin Horton shot him pre-93 O. I was never so shocked by a set of bodybuilding photos as when I went through that article. Even Ronnie at his best,
lacked Dorian's hardness and certainly his calves.
Quote from Greg Zulak, "MuscleMag", early 1997:
"The most amazing characteristic, of Dorian, is not his size per se, but his muscularity: not only is his muscle-per-square-inch ratio the greatest ever,
but his muscles seem like they were etched in stone, such is their hardness." Quote from Steve Blechman, 1995:
"Even though he doesn't represent my bodybuilding ideal, I think Dorian's overall development is mind-blogging. And when you consider that his frame carries his size so comfortably, and that he presents his
mass with such incredible conditioning...I don't think that Dorian can be defeated by current professional judging standards. He'll be Mr.Olympia for as long as he wants to."
Quote from Julian Schmidt, "FLEX" magazine, on the November issue, 1998:
"Now that Dorian Yates, the thickest,
densest and most annealed bodybuider in history has retired, Ronnie has taken the opportunity to become the new standard-bearer. Something unlikely to have happened, if Dorian still competed."
Quote from John Balik, commenting on the 96 O:
"Dorian Yates looked absolutely fantastic.
He was so freaking dense and so freaking ripped and dry, that he actually looked bigger than all the 280 lbs competitors, even though he tipped the scales at 255 lbs."
At 2 p.m. on 11 September 1993 he walked out onstage at the Civic Auditorium in Atlanta, Georgia. He weighed 257 lb. His skin looked as if it had been painted directly on to his muscle.
He was stone hard and grainy. Every detail of every body part punched out into the first ten rows. No man had ever looked quite like Dorian Yates looked that day: he looked big. He looked bad He looked sick. There was no Mr. Olympia contest. The judges saw no need to call him out for comparisons during the muscularity round.
' I knew then, ' he would say, ten years later, ' that I was either first or last. And I wasn't fucking last. '
Eventually Wayne Demilia asked him to step forward between Shawn Ray and Flex Wheeler, just the audience could marvel at him some more. Samir Bannout looked at the three of them and said ' Dorian is first, second and third. '
Dorian Yates :
[ Q ] What were some of your better physical qualities as a bodybuilder, do you think?
Obviously I carried a lot of muscle mass and my
trademark was to come into a show in super hard condition. I think my muscles had a certain quality and density from all the years of heavy training that a lot of guys didn't have.
Taken out of FLEX nov 1999, page 90. interview by jim schmaltz with ronnie before the 99 Olympia.
Jim: What would have happened last year if Dorian Yates (recently retired winner of 6 straight Mr. Olympias) had competed?
Ronnie: Dorian would have won again.
Jim: You think so?
Ronnie: I know so. Dorian has a big physique -
hard- and he's been the man to beat, and its hard to knock the champion off the block. He's a big guy and has a lot going for him.
While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold,
he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.
On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.Has the quality of physique seen on the pro stage these days changed much compared to when you were competing as a professional?
Dorian Yates : I don't think the physiques have changed radically. I think a lot of people are trying to go the size route. My sole goal when getting ready for a contest was not building a lot of size, although when I was coming up pure muscle size was still very important.
I was always really concerned about coming in very sharp conditioning wise.I think that is lacking a little bit now, and it has occurred over the past few years. You go to a pro show now and you see a couple of guys who are in really good shape and the rest of the lineup is so-so, or not so good. Back when I was competing in the Olympia I think you saw a lot of guys who were in really good shape.
There was a greater emphasis on conditioning, but now you see guys going for size at the expense of conditioning. It seems strange me saying that, as I was known for my muscle size, but it was not my priority in getting ready for a contest. Obviously I carried a lot of muscle but my main thing was to come in
super-rippedFirst of all, Dorian would bring to the stage a package so massive and
freakily conditioned that throughout his career as Mr. Olympia no one would come close to defeating him on
size and hardness. His level of development set a new standard in bodybuilding excellence, one that is being favorably looked upon, and replicated by many in the sport, today.
"These words should not be taken lightly,
because no bodybuilder has ever been as hard and dry as the man who won six Sandows."
Flex Magazine October 2004 - Peter McGough’s commentary on the "voodoo" that has now reached ridiculous complexity when it comes to trying to "dry out" bodybuilders so they’re more ripped than any anatomy chart illustration on contest day. He quotes former Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates, who notes that despite the chemistry experiments with insulin and diuretics,
"I don’t see the guys getting any harder."
Lee Priest
HOW DO YOU FEEL DORIAN WOULD FAIR AGAINST RONNIE COLEMAN NOW?
I think Dorian at his best (1993) would easily beat Ronnie. Dorian might not be as symmetrical as Ronnie, but all over he was more complete and in
better condition at his best." Chris Cormier standing next to Dorian onstage he sensed ' radiation coming off him , like an aura. ' The power of that muscle was tangible. It exerted a force all of its own. Cormier thought ' I might as well forget about this guy and concentrate on being second. ' There was something else , too , strange. You had to witness him in the flesh.
such granite hradness had a property that could nor be held on film or caught on paper. You had to see it live.
Kevin Horoton GetBig Dec 30th
The photo is technically terrible, fortunately the physique is awesome.
I'd agree with Kris about Dorian showing up on stage how he looked a few weeks out.
There are some shots of him at around 280 - 285 shredded. That conditioning has not been surpassed.
FROM MARKUS RUHL
October 2000, FLEX page 166
"DORIAN YATES HAD THE BEST BACK IN THE HISTORY OF BODYBUILDING. HIS LAT SPREAD WAS UNBELIEVABLE. HIS SIZE, MASS, AND
CONDITIONING WERE PERFECT,"
Like I said Dorian's conditioning is legendary and it's pretty clear who beats whom in this department
Ok lets give Dorian posing, but its not a night & day difference.
if hypothetically it were close these are the things that separate a winner from a loser.
inferior conditioning? You just said conditioning could be equal....
less muscular bulk? we just established Ronnie could look just as big as him (Dorian's advantage in 'bulk' wouldn't mean much)
balance & proportions? yes
part of symmetry goes to Ronnie
shape goes to Ronnie
overall muscularity goes to Ronnie
inferior conditioning , see above.
no we didn't establish Ronnie could look at big as him at his best in fact at their respective bests Ronnie 2001 and Dorian at 269lbs it would be very apparent who had this advantage
symmetry is part of balance & proportion and if you're using it in the context of smaller waist & hips and joints , than Ronnie with all of the aspect not part of it , then we must factor in the rest
shape? certain muscles yes , certain muscles NO overall NO
overall muscularity goes to Ronnie? LMFAO is the end result of conditioning and guess who wins this? Ronnie has more detail in certain parts , Dorian in others
now remember how contests are judged
ALL ROUNDS ARE PHYSIQUE ROUNDS so we add up in every single pose , from every single angle , who is more complete , who is carrying more muscular bulk , who is drier , harder , better balanced , who has better symmetry , who poses better , who has a better stage presence ALL of this is assessed at ONCE , now Ronnie may meet part(s) of this better than Dorian but as a whole NOPE Dorian just has to many advantages
So you can make assumptions of what he meant, but I can't? gotcha.
He doesn't want to come off as arrogant? How about the times he said 94, 95, etc. weren't even close? Or when he said the 93 b&w photos are the best one taken? He is not someone to care about not coming off as arrogant.
If he honestly doesn't know (being an IFBB judge), then it means it would be a tough contest to judge = close contest.
What's so hard for you to understand this?
I'm only speculating on what he may have thought in response to your query, you're the one who started that trend
please show me where he 94 and 95 weren't close? ( which is true BTW ) where are you getting this info?
Well you have your interpretation of what it means , you want it to be close and maybe it would be but either way Dorian would beat him
like I said 1998 vs Dorian 1993 or 1995 would not be close at all
Ronnie 2001 vs Dorian 1993/1995 maybe very close Dorian just has to many pluses , Dorian at 269lbs vs Ronnie 2001 247lbs
Ronnie would be left for dead
