Ronnie Coleman looked sick in Finland 98'

[Shockwave]

lol..... is it not sully?

"what did you do with sully?"

It is. Epic mistype by me. Thats what I get for posting before Im awake.

[MB]

Ronnie was not as dominating as people believe.  He lost to Gunther as the reigning Mr. O and lost the challenge round to Gustavo on the Olympia stage.  Dorian was never challenged after he won his first Olympia in '92 and was facing much tougher competition than Ronnie. 

[Shockwave]

Ronnie was not as dominating as people believe.  He lost to Gunther as the reigning Mr. O and lost the challenge round to Gustavo on the Olympia stage.  Dorian was never challenged after he won his first Olympia in '92 and was facing much tougher competition than Ronnie. 

Its all about the magazine hype. The magazines decided what people thought of Ronnie. He is the GOAT just due to his 8 O's, if nothing else.

[JP_RC]

I like you sully, thats why im going to kill you last.
Hahah.
Seriously tho, I like 99% of what you post, its a shame that you have to think Ronnie would win, and I have to think Dorian would win, otherwise we might be great posting friends. (No homo)

 

I actually kind of changed my mind on this, I honestly don't know who would win...I think it would be very close, too close to call.

[JP_RC]

Ronnie was not as dominating as people believe.  He lost to Gunther as the reigning Mr. O and lost the challenge round to Gustavo on the Olympia stage.  Dorian was never challenged after he won his first Olympia in '92 and was facing much tougher competition than Ronnie. 

I just have to say two things:

1. Ronnie also did a lot more competitions in a year than Dorian. But when it came time for the O he was dominating (possible exception 2001). The challenge round was a joke.

2. In my opinion Dorian also got kind of lucky: what if Haney had competed in 92? Flex Wheeler (Dorian's only threat back then) didn't compete both years (94 & 97) Dorian was off (to his own standard). Flex got into that unfortunate car accident and was never the same after that, we'll never know how he could've pushed Dorian.

[Shockwave]

I actually kind of changed my mind on this, I honestly don't know who would win...I think it would be very close, too close to call.

My big thing isnt who you guys think would win, but that people like Hulkster go and make huge freak out things like how Dorian was the most Overrated Mr O ever, and that no one is close to Ronnie, etc. I have no problem with someone looking at the two and making their opionion, as long as its an educated opionion and not just a knee jerk "I like Ronnie/Dorian better so he would win" reaction a la Hulkster and Nirvana.

[monstercalves]

It is. Epic mistype by me. Thats what I get for posting before Im awake.

"what did u do with sully?"

" i let him go "

LOL

[NarcissisticDeity]

Man, a lot of reading here....

After reading all of this and reviewing some of Dorian's best pics, I can honestly admit Dorian had the best conditioning, but here is the thing:

1. Quotes are good and these here show how no one was better conditioned than Dorian, but I remember reading a quote posted here about Ronnie in 2001, it was posted as a question and it went something like "has anyone ever presented a physique as hard and dry as this?" Meaning Ronnie's conditioning in 2001 was also legendary. Now take that his conditioning in 98 was equally as good (although I think he was drier) then you have a Ronnie in 98 with legendary conditioning aswell.

2. The majority of your quotes were from how Dorian dominated with his conditioning in his competitive years. Its still hard to determine how that conditioning would've helped him vs a greatly conditioned Ronnie. Let's face it, none of Dorian's competitors achieved the conditioning Ronnie achieved in 98/2001.

3. Even though Dorian's conditioning is legendary and unmatched, how close could Ronnie's best conditioning be? Most of your quotes say Dorian was unmatched, but they don't say how close a prime Ronnie would be.

1. Quotes are good and these here show how no one was better conditioned than Dorian, but I remember reading a quote posted here about Ronnie in 2001, it was posted as a question and it went something like "has anyone ever presented a physique as hard and dry as this?" Meaning Ronnie's conditioning in 2001 was also legendary. Now take that his conditioning in 98 was equally as good (although I think he was drier) then you have a Ronnie in 98 with legendary conditioning aswell.

His conditioning is legendary when it only managed to nail-it perfectly twice in his career?   let's say he may have matched it or came close he doesn't have the muscular bulk to back it up , dryness and density and fullness while carrying the most muscular bulk , I think it's pretty clear who is better conditioned and it's not close

2. The majority of your quotes were from how Dorian dominated with his conditioning in his competitive years. Its still hard to determine how that conditioning would've helped him vs a greatly conditioned Ronnie. Let's face it, none of Dorian's competitors achieved the conditioning Ronnie achieved in 98/2001.

I laughed when  you typed no of Dorian's competitors achieved the conditioning Ronnie did in 98/01   the 90s is the golden era of conditioned bodybuilders

Flex June 2006

On March 10, six-time Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates (who adorns this month's cover) dropped by FLEX's Woodland Hills, California, offices. As it was about a week after the Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic, our discussion turned to what transpired onstage there, and Dorian, who last competed in 1997, commented on the current state of pro bodybuilding.

The general level of conditioning among pros these days disappoints Dorian. Of course, after an opening statement like that, I flipped on my tape recorder and let the Shadow continue. "They just seem to want to go for size at the expense of everything," he said. "Although I was supposedly one of the first 'mass monsters,' when getting ready for a contest, mass wasn't my priority--getting cut, dry and totally separated was.

"Today, guys talk about coming in bigger and fuller when they would look better if they concentrated on coming in lighter and harder. I was willing to go that extra mile in getting rid of every possible ounce of bodyfat. I never had a 'guru', because I wanted to be the one who knew how my body worked--I couldn't see how anyone else could know my body better. My drive was that if I cut corners, the gap between me and other guys would be lessened. I wasn't willing to give them a break. All year-round I was dieting and calculating calories, carbs, fat and protein and logging everything in my journal. I weighed everything I ate. When I first came to the States for contests, I would see competing bodybuilders sitting in the hotel restaurant ordering food off the menu and I couldn't believe it. I never cheated or took risks on my diet."

Dorian wasn't the only great conditioned guy all though he stood above the best , most guys in the 90s were all in great shape while Ronnie's era NOT , Flex looked way better in 93 than 98/99 , Kevin looked eons better in 92/95 than 00/02 , Shawn in 92/94 compared to 98/99 , ironic that Ronnie only started beating them when he learned how to get hard & dry and they were past their primes

Has the quality of physique seen on the pro stage these days changed much compared to when you were competing as a professional?

Dorian Yates : I don't think the physiques have changed radically. I think a lot of people are trying to go the size route. My sole goal when getting ready for a contest was not building a lot of size, although when I was coming up pure muscle size was still very important. I was always really concerned about coming in very sharp conditioning wise.

I think that is lacking a little bit now, and it has occurred over the past few years. You go to a pro show now and you see a couple of guys who are in really good shape and the rest of the lineup is so-so, or not so good. Back when I was competing in the Olympia I think you saw a lot of guys who were in really good shape.

There was a greater emphasis on conditioning, but now you see guys going for size at the expense of conditioning. It seems strange me saying that, as I was known for my muscle size, but it was not my priority in getting ready for a contest. Obviously I carried a lot of muscle but my main thing was to come in super-ripped

Conditioning went down in Ronnie's era

3. Even though Dorian's conditioning is legendary and unmatched, how close could Ronnie's best conditioning be? Most of your quotes say Dorian was unmatched, but they don't say how close a prime Ronnie would be.

they don't say Ronnie was close at all you ever wonder why? did he deserved to be mentioned? apparently not

[JP_RC]

His conditioning is legendary when it only managed to nail-it perfectly twice in his career?   let's say he may have matched it or came close he doesn't have the muscular bulk to back it up , dryness and density and fullness while carrying the most muscular bulk , I think it's pretty clear who is better conditioned and it's not close

I laughed when  you typed no of Dorian's competitors achieved the conditioning Ronnie did in 98/01   the 90s is the golden era of conditioned bodybuilders

Flex June 2006

On March 10, six-time Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates (who adorns this month's cover) dropped by FLEX's Woodland Hills, California, offices. As it was about a week after the Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic, our discussion turned to what transpired onstage there, and Dorian, who last competed in 1997, commented on the current state of pro bodybuilding.

The general level of conditioning among pros these days disappoints Dorian. Of course, after an opening statement like that, I flipped on my tape recorder and let the Shadow continue. "They just seem to want to go for size at the expense of everything," he said. "Although I was supposedly one of the first 'mass monsters,' when getting ready for a contest, mass wasn't my priority--getting cut, dry and totally separated was.

"Today, guys talk about coming in bigger and fuller when they would look better if they concentrated on coming in lighter and harder. I was willing to go that extra mile in getting rid of every possible ounce of bodyfat. I never had a 'guru', because I wanted to be the one who knew how my body worked--I couldn't see how anyone else could know my body better. My drive was that if I cut corners, the gap between me and other guys would be lessened. I wasn't willing to give them a break. All year-round I was dieting and calculating calories, carbs, fat and protein and logging everything in my journal. I weighed everything I ate. When I first came to the States for contests, I would see competing bodybuilders sitting in the hotel restaurant ordering food off the menu and I couldn't believe it. I never cheated or took risks on my diet."

Dorian wasn't the only great conditioned guy all though he stood above the best , most guys in the 90s were all in great shape while Ronnie's era NOT , Flex looked way better in 93 than 98/99 , Kevin looked eons better in 92/95 than 00/02 , Shawn in 92/94 compared to 98/99 , ironic that Ronnie only started beating them when he learned how to get hard & dry and they were past their primes

Has the quality of physique seen on the pro stage these days changed much compared to when you were competing as a professional?

Dorian Yates : I don't think the physiques have changed radically. I think a lot of people are trying to go the size route. My sole goal when getting ready for a contest was not building a lot of size, although when I was coming up pure muscle size was still very important. I was always really concerned about coming in very sharp conditioning wise.

I think that is lacking a little bit now, and it has occurred over the past few years. You go to a pro show now and you see a couple of guys who are in really good shape and the rest of the lineup is so-so, or not so good. Back when I was competing in the Olympia I think you saw a lot of guys who were in really good shape.

There was a greater emphasis on conditioning, but now you see guys going for size at the expense of conditioning. It seems strange me saying that, as I was known for my muscle size, but it was not my priority in getting ready for a contest. Obviously I carried a lot of muscle but my main thing was to come in super-ripped

Conditioning went down in Ronnie's era

they don't say Ronnie was close at all you ever wonder why? did he deserved to be mentioned? apparently not

His conditioning is legendary when it only managed to nail-it perfectly twice in his career?   let's say he may have matched it or came close he doesn't have the muscular bulk to back it up , dryness and density and fullness while carrying the most muscular bulk , I think it's pretty clear who is better conditioned and it's not close

What does nailing only twice have to do with it? He nailed it didn't he?
Yes I have admitted Dorian had better conditioning at his best, but its not like Ronnie had bad conditioning. He matches Dorian in dryness and hardness, Dorian's advantage is the density and let's say fullness.

I laughed when  you typed no of Dorian's competitors achieved the conditioning Ronnie did in 98/01   the 90s is the golden era of conditioned bodybuilders

Dorian wasn't the only great conditioned guy all though he stood above the best , most guys in the 90s were all in great shape while Ronnie's era NOT , Flex looked way better in 93 than 98/99 , Kevin looked eons better in 92/95 than 00/02 , Shawn in 92/94 compared to 98/99 , ironic that Ronnie only started beating them when he learned how to get hard & dry and they were past their primes

Conditioning went down in Ronnie's era

I never said guys in the 90s weren't greatly conditioned or anything like that. I never said conditioning didn't go down in the 2000s, I actually agree with that.
What I said is that Ronnie was better conditioned than any of Dorian's top competition. Do you think Shawn, Levrone or Flex matched Ronnie's conditioning in 98? I don't think so, they had amazing conditioning but not like Ronnie.
Flex in 93 AC probably did, but that version never went against Dorian.

they don't say Ronnie was close at all you ever wonder why? did he deserved to be mentioned? apparently not

I'm sure I've read plenty of quotes posted here about how Ronnie was the biggest most shredded bb or his dryness and hardness were great, etc.

[Nirvana]

My big thing isnt who you guys think would win, but that people like Hulkster go and make huge freak out things like how Dorian was the most Overrated Mr O ever, and that no one is close to Ronnie, etc. I have no problem with someone looking at the two and making their opionion, as long as its an educated opionion and not just a knee jerk "I like Ronnie/Dorian better so he would win" reaction a la Hulkster and Nirvana.

your assuming I think ronnie would win because I'm a fan of his? (and I think I know everything  )
you don't even know how much of a dorian fan I am.  
I think ronnie's better because... well read my posts, not due to being a fan, I'm an equal fan of both even if I do poke fun at dorian for debates sake. I could say the same about you two "just being fans".  I could also pretend Im more educated and qualified you two. but I know I'm not.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Ok, he was a little bigger in 95, but most of it was in his torso anyway. Can you honestly say his arms, delts or legs were bigger? I think not.
Anothet thing, how balanced and proportionate was Dorian in 95 with his torso overpowering his arms?

Ok, Dorian has the advantage in conditioning also, but it wouldn't be a major advantage as with vs Nasser, Levrone, Ray, etc.

How much did Dorian 'weigh' in that 96 grand prix? Wasn't he almost as big as in 95? A little bigger than 93 maybe.
Ronnie still looked just as big as him, but softer obviously. Now factor in his 98 conditioning with the same size and Dorian's heavier scale weight wouldn't mean too much. There are so many examples of lighter guys beating heavier ones.

I think overall shape goes to Ronnie, much better taper, smaller joints, better muscle bellies overall, etc.

Muscularity - Even though Dorian was harder and better conditioned, Ronnie still displayed better muscularity or muscular definition. Let me explain, muscularity is the ability to show great muscle definition, separation, tie-ins, etc. correct?
Then Ronnie has the advantage in these areas, not in every single bodypart but overall yes.
Even though Dorian was harder, he never showed better overall separation than Ronnie, he never had Ronnie's outstanding tie-ins, he never had the same amount of overall muscle detail as Ronnie did. Call it genetics, but it is the truth.

Of course 94 & 95 weren't close at all, but I was trying to show how he bragged about it, how he is not someone who is careful of not coming off as arrogant.

Here is the thing you say 98 Ronnie vs 93/95 Dorian wouldn't be close and you say that in 2001 Ronnie vs the same versions of Dorian still its a sure Dorian victory. But here is the thing, Dorian who is an IFBB judge doesn't know who would win. He is the only judge's opinion we have on the subject, the rest of us and the "experts" can just speculate as you say.
Do you think your view or opinion on this has more weight than Dorian (IFBB judge) who says it would be a close contest?

Ok, he was a little bigger in 95, but most of it was in his torso anyway. Can you honestly say his arms, delts or legs were bigger? I think not.
Anothet thing, how balanced and proportionate was Dorian in 95 with his torso overpowering his arms?

says who? you? don't fixate on the weight but how they appeared , McGough & Yates agreed he was harder & fuller in 95 which means he was carrying more muscle and less intramuscular fat , Dorian was 270lbs in 1997 and 270lbs in the black & white photos the numbers means nothing because he looks much bigger & fuller and harder in 1993 vs 1997

You don't know where most of it was you're claiming to know maybe all those parts were bigger , maybe they were the same but if he's harder that means he's carrying more dense muscle and less intra-muscular fat so he's carrying more pure muscle in 95 than 93 and his torso overpowered his arms? according to who? you? that's another generalization , lets say it was a flaw it's not the only part of balance & proportion , you forget calves , upper-lower balance , torso length , leg length , forerarms to biceps/triceps , calves to quads , glutes ( Ronnie are so oversized they can be seem from the front ) I mean you're taking a very narrow view of what balance & proportion are for a reason you're trying to make it close when it's really not

Forget 1995 , we'll go with his best showing 1993 B&W pre-contest , his bicep wasn't torn his arms were huge , he was huge and full and dense & dry and complete , the distance between them really increases when we use this version

Ok, Dorian has the advantage in conditioning also, but it wouldn't be a major advantage as with vs Nasser, Levrone, Ray, etc.

All three had awesome conditioning , Nasser was the exception because of his back , Nasser was hard as hails from the front and soft from the back , Dorian has a clear advantage in conditioning but you can't just focus on that , it's the conditioning AND he size AND the balance AND the posing it's everything combined , that's how it works

How much did Dorian 'weigh' in that 96 grand prix? Wasn't he almost as big as in 95? A little bigger than 93 maybe.
Ronnie still looked just as big as him, but softer obviously. Now factor in his 98 conditioning with the same size and Dorian's heavier scale weight wouldn't mean too much. There are so many examples of lighter guys beating heavier one

I'm actually not sure but he looked smaller than usual like the Olympia where he was listed as 255lbs which is slightly lighter than 93 but he was flat especially in the quads and his arms were smaller than usual , the scale number means nothing compared to how you appear , Ronnie looked just as big? I don't see it at all and lets say he had the same dimensions it doesn't matter his conditioning paled in comparison , lets say Ronnie was 250 and Dorian was 250 guess who is carrying more dense , dry pure muscle at that weight.

Ronnie 1998 would still not be as full , hard , dry , or as balanced as Dorian or complete and he would have bitch-tits , plenty of examples of lighter guys beating heavier ones no kidding , Dorian was lighter than , Dillett , Ferigno , Harrison , Nasser , same with Shawn Ray , but how many of those lighter guys beat Dorian? NONE

I think overall shape goes to Ronnie, much better taper, smaller joints, better muscle bellies overall, etc.

well we can play this two ways , lets say he did that means nothing because Dorian crushed Flex whose shape is eons better than Ronnies , or we can say in some parts yes and some no , overall? NO I would agree if he had collected more mandatory poses but he doesn't , front latspread , rear latspread , side triceps , ab-thigh Dorian kills him in , in some muscles Ronnie yes , in some Dorian sure overall Ronnie doesn't beat him and even entertaining he did it would mean nothing , ask Flex

Muscularity - Even though Dorian was harder and better conditioned, Ronnie still displayed better muscularity or muscular definition. Let me explain, muscularity is the ability to show great muscle definition, separation, tie-ins, etc. correct?
Then Ronnie has the advantage in these areas, not in every single bodypart but overall yes.
Even though Dorian was harder, he never showed better overall separation than Ronnie, he never had Ronnie's outstanding tie-ins, he never had the same amount of overall muscle detail as Ronnie did. Call it genetics, but it is the truth.

detail isn't muscularity , muscularity is a byproduct of you guessed it conditioning , who is the hardest , driest who is showing the most musculature. Detail is obviously a byproduct of great conditioning muscle dryness and hardness are the epitome of muscularity however when it's not backed up with the muscular bulk , balance & proportion and posing & presentation it's not worth much alone ask Hamdullah Aykutlu in 1993 who displayed outstanding muscularity and he finished 17th in 93

Quote from Greg Zulak, "MuscleMag", early 1997:

  "The most amazing characteristic, of Dorian, is not his size per se, but his muscularity: not only is his muscle-per-square-inch ratio the greatest ever, but his muscles seem like they were etched in stone, such is their hardness."


And where is Ronnie more separated? I always asked these guys before and they never had an answer , what muscles besides biceps show better separation? back? NO triceps? NO hams? NO quads? maybe in the rectus femoris YES calves? NO forearms? NO chest? NO abdominals? NO midsection? NO delts? NO where is this better separation? Ronnie may show better detail in some parts , tie-ins Ronnie might have the edge , overall muscularity? Dorian by far

Of course 94 & 95 weren't close at all, but I was trying to show how he bragged about it, how he is not someone who is careful of not coming off as arrogant.

You didn't answer the question , where did he brag about it?

Here is the thing you say 98 Ronnie vs 93/95 Dorian wouldn't be close and you say that in 2001 Ronnie vs the same versions of Dorian still its a sure Dorian victory. But here is the thing, Dorian who is an IFBB judge doesn't know who would win. He is the only judge's opinion we have on the subject, the rest of us and the "experts" can just speculate as you say.
Do you think your view or opinion on this has more weight than Dorian (IFBB judge) who says it would be a close contest?

Actually I put WAY , WAY more thought into than Dorian ever did   it's an opinion and seeing it's such means there is technically no right and wrong , again it's a question he obviously doesn't put much thought into which is why he says I guess I don't know , he already said he has the advantage in conditioning & balance , what's left? muscular bulk and posing? he already admits he owns half of the criteria , again he's asked to speculate on the spot on a hypothetical situation and he says he doesn't know you're attempting to claim because he doesn't want to commit answer that it might somehow be very close , that's you projecting

[NarcissisticDeity]

Ronnie was not as dominating as people believe.  He lost to Gunther as the reigning Mr. O and lost the challenge round to Gustavo on the Olympia stage.  Dorian was never challenged after he won his first Olympia in '92 and was facing much tougher competition than Ronnie. 

QFT a lot of his Olympia titles were close regardless of what fanboys try and claim to the contrary

Coleman's 1998 Olympia victory] was not a definitive win. In 99, Big Ron was lucky to defeat Flex Wheeler again. Levrone thought he'd beaten him twice, in 2000 and 2002. At the 2002 show, Levrone had won both of the evening rounds (a year on, at the Olympia press conference before the 2003 show, Coleman would chide Levrone, asking him, 'When was the last time you beat me?' Levrone replied, 'Last year.'). In 2001, Jay Cutler beat Ronnie in both the first two rounds and lost by four points.
   Coleman had not replicated the dominance of Haney and Yates. He always seemed slightly vulnerable, protected as much by protocol as his physique

[NarcissisticDeity]

I just have to say two things:

1. Ronnie also did a lot more competitions in a year than Dorian. But when it came time for the O he was dominating (possible exception 2001). The challenge round was a joke.

2. In my opinion Dorian also got kind of lucky: what if Haney had competed in 92? Flex Wheeler (Dorian's only threat back then) didn't compete both years (94 & 97) Dorian was off (to his own standard). Flex got into that unfortunate car accident and was never the same after that, we'll never know how he could've pushed Dorian.

1. Ronnie also did a lot more competitions in a year than Dorian. But when it came time for the O he was dominating (possible exception 2001). The challenge round was a joke.

no he wasn't , first win was anything but dominating one of the closest contests it history , 99 Ronnie dominated straight firsts , 2000 another dominating win , 2001 lost the entire prejudging , 2002 lost the posing rounds , 2003 crushed everyone , 2004 very close contest , 2005 he didn't dominate but won

at times he dominated but not like Dorian did

2. In my opinion Dorian also got kind of lucky: what if Haney had competed in 92? Flex Wheeler (Dorian's only threat back then) didn't compete both years (94 & 97) Dorian was off (to his own standard). Flex got into that unfortunate car accident and was never the same after that, we'll never know how he could've pushed Dorian.

If Haney competed and looked the same he did  in 91 in 92 and Yates looked the same he did in 92 , Haney would have won , by 1993 Dorian would have crushed any Haney , Flex at close to his all-time best was utterly destroyed by Dorian in fact Flex said Dorian was ' unbeatable ' he didn't replicate his 93 form so who knows if that would have been enough to beat Dorian either in 94 or 97 maybe , he was the one guy who could have

if we use that logic then we can say Ronnie is lucky Dorian injured himself because if he didn't Ronnie wouldn't have ever won

[NarcissisticDeity]

What does nailing only twice have to do with it? He nailed it didn't he?
Yes I have admitted Dorian had better conditioning at his best, but its not like Ronnie had bad conditioning. He matches Dorian in dryness and hardness, Dorian's advantage is the density and let's say fullness.

I never said guys in the 90s weren't greatly conditioned or anything like that. I never said conditioning didn't go down in the 2000s, I actually agree with that.
What I said is that Ronnie was better conditioned than any of Dorian's top competition. Do you think Shawn, Levrone or Flex matched Ronnie's conditioning in 98? I don't think so, they had amazing conditioning but not like Ronnie.
Flex in 93 AC probably did, but that version never went against Dorian.

I'm sure I've read plenty of quotes posted here about how Ronnie was the biggest most shredded bb or his dryness and hardness were great, etc.

What does nailing only twice have to do with it? He nailed it didn't he?
Yes I have admitted Dorian had better conditioning at his best, but its not like Ronnie had bad conditioning. He matches Dorian in dryness and hardness, Dorian's advantage is the density and let's say fullness.

what's it have to do with it? it's not stuff of legend , in fact Ronnie was more ' off ' than on. The problem we have here is you don't know what conditioning is , density IS muscle hardness and Ronnie does NOT match him here , in fact he doesn't touch him in conditioning , DENSITY , DRYNESS and FULLNESS while carrying the most muscular bulk , Ronnie's never been referred to as ' grainy ' or having skin like ' tissue paper ' conditioning is NOT close at all Dorian kills them all not just Ronnie

I never said guys in the 90s weren't greatly conditioned or anything like that. I never said conditioning didn't go down in the 2000s, I actually agree with that.
What I said is that Ronnie was better conditioned than any of Dorian's top competition. Do you think Shawn, Levrone or Flex matched Ronnie's conditioning in 98? I don't think so, they had amazing conditioning but not like Ronnie.
Flex in 93 AC probably did, but that version never went against Dorian.

yes I absolutely think Kevin , Shawn and Flex all came in in just as good as shape as Ronnie when they were competing with Dorian , Ronnie was always behind the best in the 90s for that reason

I'm sure I've read plenty of quotes posted here about how Ronnie was the biggest most shredded bb or his dryness and hardness were great, etc.

yeah those quotes were posted compared to guys he competed with m he wasn't against Dorian whose conditioning is still talked about 13 years after he retired

[NarcissisticDeity]

your assuming I think ronnie would win because I'm a fan of his? (and I think I know everything  )
you don't even know how much of a dorian fan I am.  
I think ronnie's better because... well read my posts, not due to being a fan, I'm an equal fan of both even if I do poke fun at dorian for debates sake. I could say the same about you two "just being fans".  I could also pretend Im more educated and qualified you two. but I know I'm not.

I never though Dorian should have won in 1993 , I thought Flex should have won hands down I was calling it a fix back then ! then I learned how contests were judged and realized just how far Dorian was compared to everyone

Dorian is not my favorite bodybuilder , that's the thing I would never want to look like him , I don't train like him , I don't buy his supplements , this shows I can be objective and I'm not just blindly following him

[Hulkster]

how can you type such utter bullshit?

you really think anyone will believe that dorian is not your fav. bodybuilder given your posts and rep. on this board?

and by the way, you STILL haven't learned how contests are judged.

thats exactly why you think dorian would win over a peak ronnie.

you are misguided and misinformed.

[NarcissisticDeity]

how can you type such utter bullshit?

you really think anyone will believe that dorian is not your fav. bodybuilder given your posts and rep. on this board?

and by the way, you STILL haven't learned how contests are judged.

thats exactly why you think dorian would win over a peak ronnie.

you are misguided and misinformed.

meltdown as usual

yes we all know Hulkster knows how contests are judged , according to you ( fucking moron   ) Dorian lost the most dominating Olympia win in the sport's history and Ronnie dominated a contest he lost the entire prejudging in

it takes moments to destroy you because you're stupid thanks for playing  

[JP_RC]

says who? you? don't fixate on the weight but how they appeared , McGough & Yates agreed he was harder & fuller in 95 which means he was carrying more muscle and less intramuscular fat , Dorian was 270lbs in 1997 and 270lbs in the black & white photos the numbers means nothing because he looks much bigger & fuller and harder in 1993 vs 1997

You don't know where most of it was you're claiming to know maybe all those parts were bigger , maybe they were the same but if he's harder that means he's carrying more dense muscle and less intra-muscular fat so he's carrying more pure muscle in 95 than 93 and his torso overpowered his arms? according to who? you? that's another generalization , lets say it was a flaw it's not the only part of balance & proportion , you forget calves , upper-lower balance , torso length , leg length , forerarms to biceps/triceps , calves to quads , glutes ( Ronnie are so oversized they can be seem from the front ) I mean you're taking a very narrow view of what balance & proportion are for a reason you're trying to make it close when it's really not

Forget 1995 , we'll go with his best showing 1993 B&W pre-contest , his bicep wasn't torn his arms were huge , he was huge and full and dense & dry and complete , the distance between them really increases when we use this version

All three had awesome conditioning , Nasser was the exception because of his back , Nasser was hard as hails from the front and soft from the back , Dorian has a clear advantage in conditioning but you can't just focus on that , it's the conditioning AND he size AND the balance AND the posing it's everything combined , that's how it works

I'm actually not sure but he looked smaller than usual like the Olympia where he was listed as 255lbs which is slightly lighter than 93 but he was flat especially in the quads and his arms were smaller than usual , the scale number means nothing compared to how you appear , Ronnie looked just as big? I don't see it at all and lets say he had the same dimensions it doesn't matter his conditioning paled in comparison , lets say Ronnie was 250 and Dorian was 250 guess who is carrying more dense , dry pure muscle at that weight.

Ronnie 1998 would still not be as full , hard , dry , or as balanced as Dorian or complete and he would have bitch-tits , plenty of examples of lighter guys beating heavier ones no kidding , Dorian was lighter than , Dillett , Ferigno , Harrison , Nasser , same with Shawn Ray , but how many of those lighter guys beat Dorian? NONE

well we can play this two ways , lets say he did that means nothing because Dorian crushed Flex whose shape is eons better than Ronnies , or we can say in some parts yes and some no , overall? NO I would agree if he had collected more mandatory poses but he doesn't , front latspread , rear latspread , side triceps , ab-thigh Dorian kills him in , in some muscles Ronnie yes , in some Dorian sure overall Ronnie doesn't beat him and even entertaining he did it would mean nothing , ask Flex

detail isn't muscularity , muscularity is a byproduct of you guessed it conditioning , who is the hardest , driest who is showing the most musculature. Detail is obviously a byproduct of great conditioning muscle dryness and hardness are the epitome of muscularity however when it's not backed up with the muscular bulk , balance & proportion and posing & presentation it's not worth much alone ask Hamdullah Aykutlu in 1993 who displayed outstanding muscularity and he finished 17th in 93

Quote from Greg Zulak, "MuscleMag", early 1997:

  "The most amazing characteristic, of Dorian, is not his size per se, but his muscularity: not only is his muscle-per-square-inch ratio the greatest ever, but his muscles seem like they were etched in stone, such is their hardness."


And where is Ronnie more separated? I always asked these guys before and they never had an answer , what muscles besides biceps show better separation? back? NO triceps? NO hams? NO quads? maybe in the rectus femoris YES calves? NO forearms? NO chest? NO abdominals? NO midsection? NO delts? NO where is this better separation? Ronnie may show better detail in some parts , tie-ins Ronnie might have the edge , overall muscularity? Dorian by far

You didn't answer the question , where did he brag about it?


Actually I put WAY , WAY more thought into than Dorian ever did   it's an opinion and seeing it's such means there is technically no right and wrong , again it's a question he obviously doesn't put much thought into which is why he says I guess I don't know , he already said he has the advantage in conditioning & balance , what's left? muscular bulk and posing? he already admits he owns half of the criteria , again he's asked to speculate on the spot on a hypothetical situation and he says he doesn't know you're attempting to claim because he doesn't want to commit answer that it might somehow be very close , that's you projecting

says who? you? don't fixate on the weight but how they appeared , McGough & Yates agreed he was harder & fuller in 95 which means he was carrying more muscle and less intramuscular fat , Dorian was 270lbs in 1997 and 270lbs in the black & white photos the numbers means nothing because he looks much bigger & fuller and harder in 1993 vs 1997

You don't know where most of it was you're claiming to know maybe all those parts were bigger , maybe they were the same but if he's harder that means he's carrying more dense muscle and less intra-muscular fat so he's carrying more pure muscle in 95 than 93 and his torso overpowered his arms? according to who? you? that's another generalization , lets say it was a flaw it's not the only part of balance & proportion , you forget calves , upper-lower balance , torso length , leg length , forerarms to biceps/triceps , calves to quads , glutes ( Ronnie are so oversized they can be seem from the front ) I mean you're taking a very narrow view of what balance & proportion are for a reason you're trying to make it close when it's really not

This is exactly what I'm doing, I'm not fixating on the numbers. You are when you say Dorian beats Ronnie in size because he has more muscular bulk.
Dorian was fuller and harder meaning he was carrying more dense muscle I agree here, but my question was were was all that muscle distributed? All over? It didn't seem so and there is no quote for you to proof that.

Obviously the arm/torso thing of Dorian is only part of balance & proportion and Ronnie has the problems with his calves/upper legs, forearms/upper arms and upper/ lower body balance; which is why I already admitted that Dorian has better balance & proportion. Why do you keep posting this? All I said was Dorian's balance & proportion in 95 wouldn't have been as good as in 93 = his extra muscular bulk wasn't as evenly distributed.

Forget 1995 , we'll go with his best showing 1993 B&W pre-contest , his bicep wasn't torn his arms were huge , he was huge and full and dense & dry and complete , the distance between them really increases when we use this version

I already posted that Dorian in the b&w precontest version beats Ronnie any version and just about any other bodybuilder too. But like I also said: he never took that package to the stage which brings the question of how Ronnie looked 'x' weeks out from 'x' contest.

I'm actually not sure but he looked smaller than usual like the Olympia where he was listed as 255lbs which is slightly lighter than 93 but he was flat especially in the quads and his arms were smaller than usual , the scale number means nothing compared to how you appear , Ronnie looked just as big? I don't see it at all and lets say he had the same dimensions it doesn't matter his conditioning paled in comparison , lets say Ronnie was 250 and Dorian was 250 guess who is carrying more dense , dry pure muscle at that weight.

Ronnie 1998 would still not be as full , hard , dry , or as balanced as Dorian or complete and he would have bitch-tits , plenty of examples of lighter guys beating heavier ones no kidding , Dorian was lighter than , Dillett , Ferigno , Harrison , Nasser , same with Shawn Ray , but how many of those lighter guys beat Dorian? NONE

Again the bolded part is what I was trying to say, a lighter Ronnie would look just as big as Dorian. Ronnie wouldn't be as dense and hard, ok I agree. Ronnie would be just as dry in 98, you said this too. Fullness? I don't get why Dorian would be fuller.
No sense going over this as I already posted Dorian has better conditioning overall, his advantage wouldn't be as dominating as in the 90s though, which is why I think Ronnie would be closer to him than Levrone, Nasser, etc.

well we can play this two ways , lets say he did that means nothing because Dorian crushed Flex whose shape is eons better than Ronnies , or we can say in some parts yes and some no , overall? NO I would agree if he had collected more mandatory poses but he doesn't , front latspread , rear latspread , side triceps , ab-thigh Dorian kills him in , in some muscles Ronnie yes , in some Dorian sure overall Ronnie doesn't beat him and even entertaining he did it would mean nothing , ask Flex

Flex is no Ronnie though.

detail isn't muscularity , muscularity is a byproduct of you guessed it conditioning , who is the hardest , driest who is showing the most musculature. Detail is obviously a byproduct of great conditioning muscle dryness and hardness are the epitome of muscularity however when it's not backed up with the muscular bulk , balance & proportion and posing & presentation it's not worth much alone ask Hamdullah Aykutlu in 1993 who displayed outstanding muscularity and he finished 17th in 93

And where is Ronnie more separated? I always asked these guys before and they never had an answer , what muscles besides biceps show better separation? back? NO triceps? NO hams? NO quads? maybe in the rectus femoris YES calves? NO forearms? NO chest? NO abdominals? NO midsection? NO delts? NO where is this better separation? Ronnie may show better detail in some parts , tie-ins Ronnie might have the edge , overall muscularity? Dorian by far

Detail is a by product of great conditioning, well guess who showed better detail? Ronnie.
Overall I think Ronnie is more separated. His whole arms and shoulders are have better separation than Dorian, his chest, his quads. Backs and hams are equal and Dorian has better separation in calves, abs.
Now take this to poses and overall Ronnie shows better detail and separation and tie-ins and is equally dry to show them.
The only two poses I give Dorian in this aspect of muscularity are ab&thigh and side triceps.

You didn't answer the question , where did he brag about it?


Actually I put WAY , WAY more thought into than Dorian ever did  it's an opinion and seeing it's such means there is technically no right and wrong , again it's a question he obviously doesn't put much thought into which is why he says I guess I don't know , he already said he has the advantage in conditioning & balance , what's left? muscular bulk and posing? he already admits he owns half of the criteria , again he's asked to speculate on the spot on a hypothetical situation and he says he doesn't know you're attempting to claim because he doesn't want to commit answer that it might somehow be very close , that's you projecting

A thread in MD, people were discussing the 94 Olympia and someone posted something along these lines: "Dorian already said that contest wasn't even close". I assumed he wasn't lying.

So your opinion is more valid than an IFBB judge?
You're assuming he didn't put much thought into it. How much thought do you think judges have the time to put in when judging a contest?

And do you know what is interesting? He was actually giving it to Ronnie first and then said I don't know, that shows how close it would be for him an IFBB judge.

The thing is you've used the whole Ronnie said Dorian would beat him so much in the past to try and end this 'debate'. Well, guess what? I can so the same with what Dorian said.
Who's opinion do you think is more valid Ronnie or an IFBB judge?

[JP_RC]

what's it have to do with it? it's not stuff of legend , in fact Ronnie was more ' off ' than on. The problem we have here is you don't know what conditioning is , density IS muscle hardness and Ronnie does NOT match him here , in fact he doesn't touch him in conditioning , DENSITY , DRYNESS and FULLNESS while carrying the most muscular bulk , Ronnie's never been referred to as ' grainy ' or having skin like ' tissue paper ' conditioning is NOT close at all Dorian kills them all not just Ronnie

yes I absolutely think Kevin , Shawn and Flex all came in in just as good as shape as Ronnie when they were competing with Dorian , Ronnie was always behind the best in the 90s for that reason

yeah those quotes were posted compared to guys he competed with m he wasn't against Dorian whose conditioning is still talked about 13 years after he retired

Dorian's conditioning is better, but I don't think he kills Ronnie with it. Ronnie's conditioning has also been talked about (not to the extent of Dorian) and there are quotes of this. I never read anything regarding Levrone's, Shawn's, Nasser's or Flex's conditioning being something to remember. (Like I said possible exception Flex at the 93 AC).

[JP_RC]

no he wasn't , first win was anything but dominating one of the closest contests it history , 99 Ronnie dominated straight firsts , 2000 another dominating win , 2001 lost the entire prejudging , 2002 lost the posing rounds , 2003 crushed everyone , 2004 very close contest , 2005 he didn't dominate but won

at times he dominated but not like Dorian did

If Haney competed and looked the same he did  in 91 in 92 and Yates looked the same he did in 92 , Haney would have won , by 1993 Dorian would have crushed any Haney , Flex at close to his all-time best was utterly destroyed by Dorian in fact Flex said Dorian was ' unbeatable ' he didn't replicate his 93 form so who knows if that would have been enough to beat Dorian either in 94 or 97 maybe , he was the one guy who could have

if we use that logic then we can say Ronnie is lucky Dorian injured himself because if he didn't Ronnie wouldn't have ever won

I pretty much agree with everthing you posted here except one thing: Ronnie wouldn't have won if Dorian hadn't retired.

Do you think a version of Dorian in 97 would've beaten a 98 Ronnie? I'm sorry, but this is too much 

[NarcissisticDeity]

This is exactly what I'm doing, I'm not fixating on the numbers. You are when you say Dorian beats Ronnie in size because he has more muscular bulk.
Dorian was fuller and harder meaning he was carrying more dense muscle I agree here, but my question was were was all that muscle distributed? All over? It didn't seem so and there is no quote for you to proof that.

Obviously the arm/torso thing of Dorian is only part of balance & proportion and Ronnie has the problems with his calves/upper legs, forearms/upper arms and upper/ lower body balance; which is why I already admitted that Dorian has better balance & proportion. Why do you keep posting this? All I said was Dorian's balance & proportion in 95 wouldn't have been as good as in 93 = his extra muscular bulk wasn't as evenly distributed.

I already posted that Dorian in the b&w precontest version beats Ronnie any version and just about any other bodybuilder too. But like I also said: he never took that package to the stage which brings the question of how Ronnie looked 'x' weeks out from 'x' contest.

Again the bolded part is what I was trying to say, a lighter Ronnie would look just as big as Dorian. Ronnie wouldn't be as dense and hard, ok I agree. Ronnie would be just as dry in 98, you said this too. Fullness? I don't get why Dorian would be fuller.
No sense going over this as I already posted Dorian has better conditioning overall, his advantage wouldn't be as dominating as in the 90s though, which is why I think Ronnie would be closer to him than Levrone, Nasser, etc.

Flex is no Ronnie though.

Detail is a by product of great conditioning, well guess who showed better detail? Ronnie.
Overall I think Ronnie is more separated. His whole arms and shoulders are have better separation than Dorian, his chest, his quads. Backs and hams are equal and Dorian has better separation in calves, abs.
Now take this to poses and overall Ronnie shows better detail and separation and tie-ins and is equally dry to show them.
The only two poses I give Dorian in this aspect of muscularity are ab&thigh and side triceps.

A thread in MD, people were discussing the 94 Olympia and someone posted something along these lines: "Dorian already said that contest wasn't even close". I assumed he wasn't lying.

So your opinion is more valid than an IFBB judge?
You're assuming he didn't put much thought into it. How much thought do you think judges have the time to put in when judging a contest?

And do you know what is interesting? He was actually giving it to Ronnie first and then said I don't know, that shows how close it would be for him an IFBB judge.

The thing is you've used the whole Ronnie said Dorian would beat him so much in the past to try and end this 'debate'. Well, guess what? I can so the same with what Dorian said.
Who's opinion do you think is more valid Ronnie or an IFBB judge?

This is exactly what I'm doing, I'm not fixating on the numbers. You are when you say Dorian beats Ronnie in size because he has more muscular bulk.
Dorian was fuller and harder meaning he was carrying more dense muscle I agree here, but my question was were was all that muscle distributed? All over? It didn't seem so and there is no quote for you to proof that.

No you're doing it for Ronnie yet not for Dorian . you're dismissing his extra weight in 95 as all in his gut where was it all? all over Dorian was 257lbs in 1996 did he look exactly the same as he did in 1993? NO why? the was exactly same weight so every muscle must be the same size everywhere not how it works

Obviously the arm/torso thing of Dorian is only part of balance & proportion and Ronnie has the problems with his calves/upper legs, forearms/upper arms and upper/ lower body balance; which is why I already admitted that Dorian has better balance & proportion. Why do you keep posting this? All I said was Dorian's balance & proportion in 95 wouldn't have been as good as in 93 = his extra muscular bulk wasn't as evenly distributed.

lets say it's not as good as 93 in 95 still better than Ronnie , so it doesn't matter. and one bicep shorter than the other doesn't ruin his entire balance & proportion either that's really reaching

I already posted that Dorian in the b&w precontest version beats Ronnie any version and just about any other bodybuilder too. But like I also said: he never took that package to the stage which brings the question of how Ronnie looked 'x' weeks out from 'x' contest.

the debate always was Dorian at his best many feel that is his best stop using the stage as an excuse. you can show me any pics of Ronnie precontest and Dorian still has em in you guessed it all the same criteria , Ronnie's conditioning , balance all go to shit the heavier he becomes

Wayne Demilla " I've said to Ronnie , " What you've got to realize is that in 98-99 you were probably in the best proportion you could be for your frame . Those muscles have gotten bigger. Just cos you're bigger , doesn't make you better . "

Again the bolded part is what I was trying to say, a lighter Ronnie would look just as big as Dorian. Ronnie wouldn't be as dense and hard, ok I agree. Ronnie would be just as dry in 98, you said this too. Fullness? I don't get why Dorian would be fuller.
No sense going over this as I already posted Dorian has better conditioning overall, his advantage wouldn't be as dominating as in the 90s though, which is why I think Ronnie would be closer to him than Levrone, Nasser, etc.

No sense going over this? you don't even know what you're going over , you're claiming Ronnie is close on dryness and density and Dorian wins on hardness it's the same thing , you honestly can't comment on whose better conditioned when you don't know what it is.

Why would Dorian be fuller? more muscle and less fat = density , Dorian's conditioning is better anyone who knows what it is wont honestly argue to the contrary

Flex is no Ronnie though.

In terms of shape Flex kills him

Detail is a by product of great conditioning, well guess who showed better detail? Ronnie.
Overall I think Ronnie is more separated. His whole arms and shoulders are have better separation than Dorian, his chest, his quads. Backs and hams are equal and Dorian has better separation in calves, abs.
Now take this to poses and overall Ronnie shows better detail and separation and tie-ins and is equally dry to show them.
The only two poses I give Dorian in this aspect of muscularity are ab&thigh and side triceps.

Better detail where? in his biceps? sure more separated in his whole arms?   and shoulders?   you just keep taking broad brush strokes where is the better detail besides the biceps? Dorian has striated triceps , pecs , intercostals , obliques , glutes , Dorian has striated traps I never seen those from Ronnie , and guess who has the better & more detailed x-mass tree? you keep making just gross over-statements , Dorian's advantage in muscularity and all aspects of it are evident in ANY pose and considering all rounds are physique rounds ALL of the criteria which leads me back to my same old point , Ronnie may meet part(s) of criteria better than Dorian he doesn't meet ALL of it better than Dorian

A thread in MD, people were discussing the 94 Olympia and someone posted something along these lines: "Dorian already said that contest wasn't even close". I assumed he wasn't lying.

this is your source for 94 and 95 as you claimed? even if he did say it it's still truth

So your opinion is more valid than an IFBB judge?
You're assuming he didn't put much thought into it. How much thought do you think judges have the time to put in when judging a contest?

And do you know what is interesting? He was actually giving it to Ronnie first and then said I don't know, that shows how close it would be for him an IFBB judge.

Where did I say it was more valid? please post that and my opinion is right in line with his , Dorian kills him om conditioning and balance , and you're right I'm assuming he didn't put much thought into it , he never gave a definitive answer it's safe to assume , he said multiple times it was a very hard question to answer .

besides not knowing how conditioning is you're now proving you don't know how contests are judged , judges have a lot of time to judge contests , prejudging can sometimes take 3 hours in some cases they split the contest into two days , and judges , judge what's in front of them not one guy from 1993 and one from 2001 the nature of that alone isn't something one can answer on a whim

did you miss the part where he said I guess I don't know? I guess.. obviously it means he not basing it on knowing or putting much thought into it , maybe it would be close , maybe it wouldn't it's all speculation in the end , what he do know is statistically the odd favor Dorian , the guy never placed below second in a pro show and beat Ronnie 8 times.

The thing is you've used the whole Ronnie said Dorian would beat him so much in the past to try and end this 'debate'. Well, guess what? I can so the same with what Dorian said.
Who's opinion do you think is more valid Ronnie or an IFBB judge?

I used that as what? proof? NO sorry in fact I said just because Ronnie said it doesn't make it so , but those quotes from Ronnie end anything Hulkster could type and it utterly killed him to hear Ronnie consistently say he wouldn't beat him

And NO you can't do the same with Dorian because one he said he didn't know , and Ronnie said he did know , BIG difference there.

so keep trying to read more into that Yates quote than whats there in the end he said ' I don't know ' Ronnie on the other hand seems to know

Taken out of FLEX nov 1999, page 90.  interview by jim schmaltz with ronnie before the 99 Olympia.

Jim:  What would have happened last year if Dorian Yates (recently retired winner of 6 straight Mr. Olympias) had competed?


Ronnie:  Dorian would have won again.


Jim: You think so?


Ronnie:  I know so.  Dorian has a big physique - hard- and he's been the man to beat, and its hard to knock the champion off the block.  He's a big guy and has a lot going for him.

notice he mentions Dorian has a big physique ( muscular bulk ) and he's hard ( density ) and a big guy with a lot going for him  

[NarcissisticDeity]

I pretty much agree with everthing you posted here except one thing: Ronnie wouldn't have won if Dorian hadn't retired.

Do you think a version of Dorian in 97 would've beaten a 98 Ronnie? I'm sorry, but this is too much 

Please reread
if we use that logic then we can say Ronnie is lucky Dorian injured himself because if he didn't Ronnie wouldn't have ever won

because if he didn't I'm not sure if you completely read what I typed.

[French]

too big and complete for Ronnie..
 

[Deicide]

Please reread
if we use that logic then we can say Ronnie is lucky Dorian injured himself because if he didn't Ronnie wouldn't have ever won

because if he didn't I'm not sure if you completely read what I typed.

You=Hulkster

[NarcissisticDeity]

Dorian's conditioning is better, but I don't think he kills Ronnie with it. Ronnie's conditioning has also been talked about (not to the extent of Dorian) and there are quotes of this. I never read anything regarding Levrone's, Shawn's, Nasser's or Flex's conditioning being something to remember. (Like I said possible exception Flex at the 93 AC).

Did you read the quote where Dorian said when he competed there was more of an emphasis on conditioning? and now and days ( Ronnie's era ) there are one or two guys in shape?

like I said even the guys who competed with Dorian and Ronnie were all in fantastic conditioning when he faced them compared to Ronnie , Flex 93 compared to 98/99 , Shawn 94/96 compared to 98/99 Kevin 92/95 compared to 00/02 where he actually beat Ronnie in 2002 in the posing rounds , Nasser 1995/1996 compared to 98/99/01 I mean none of them were on Dorian's level but neither was Ronnie