Author Topic: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians  (Read 2658 times)

Fury

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The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
By Ed West Religion Last updated: November 17th, 2010

Two more Christians murdered in Iraq on Monday night and another three yesterday, as the community is driven to extinction.

And on the Today programme earlier this week there was yet another segment about this persecuted minority, perhaps suggesting that the media are waking up to what many Iraqis themselves call “genocide” (the word, incidentally, was coined in 1936 after a previous massacre of Iraqi Christians).

However the Left largely remains in denial about the situation faced by Middle Eastern Christians, despite widespread evidence by various human rights organisation. The Guardian had a piece on Friday in which the writer argued that this was part of a ‘clash of civilisations myth’:


"One article in Foreign Policy went so far as to suggest the church attack might spell “the end of Christianity in the Middle East” altogether. Yet such generalisations play into the hands of radicals wanting to perpetuate the clash-of-civilisations myth. Though anti-Christian feeling may be rising on the extreme radical fringe of some Arab societies such as Iraq, this should not obscure the harmony that has long been a characteristic of other parts of the Arab world.

However, as Robert Fisk has suggested declining Christian numbers could also be largely due to demographics and favourable immigration conditions rather than increased persecution.

In fact, large parts of the Arab world remain tolerant and display deep inter-communal harmony. The fact that most of Iraq’s displaced Christians have fled not to the west but to other Arab states, notably Syria and Jordan, seems to illustrate this.

Moreover, at a broader societal level across the region, it seems wholly unjust to suggest Arab Muslims are suddenly turning on their Christian compatriots. A radical fringe in each state may share the extremist views of al-Qaida, but that does not mean they are accepted by mainstream society. Even Islamists such as Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood expressed their disgust at the Baghdad bombings, and called for Cairo to protect its churches. This issue varies across the region more than generalist commentators are allowing for.

Christian numbers may be diminishing and the radical fringe may sadly be gaining the upper hand in certain pockets such as Iraq, which the international community should rightly condemn. However, the Arab world in general remains a place where Christians and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries, and look certain to continue doing so. Perhaps we should be celebrating this fact rather than exaggerating the extent to which the whole region is suddenly becoming anti-Christian."


Yes, cynical old British media. There we are focusing on the one unfortunate incident where dozens of people happened to be slaughtered in a church, when we could have focused on literally dozens of Iraqi churches where no one was murdered by Islamists that weekend.

It is understandable that the writer might believe this line, as his expertise is in Syria and Jordan, two countries where Christians are protected. Jordan is ruled by a benign monarchy and Syria by a secular dictatorship famed for its poor human rights record. They don’t tolerate Islamism in Damascus, which is probably why it’s so pleasant and the women’s famed beauty is generally not imprisoned behind the veil; in fact the current debate about torturing jihadis in the West must be baffling to Syrians, for whom waterboarding is probably considered the equivalent of being sent on safari by a misguided liberal judge.

Christians in Jordan and Syria are protected. But despite the Left’s “myth of the myth” of the clash of civilisations, the simple fact is that almost nowhere in the Islamic world are Christians free in the same way Muslims are free in Europe.

Deniers of this essential truth usually fall back on historical arguments about Islam’s famed tolerance, but this is deceptive. During the high middle ages, the Islamic world was far more tolerant than Christendom, but it couldn’t be otherwise. North of the Alps Europe was 95-99 per cent Christian, so minorities faced persecution; the “Muslim world” had enormous Christian minorities throughout this period and in some cases majorities, and this goes for modern-day Iraq, Syria, Egypt (probably majority Christian until the 18th century), Lebanon and Palestine.

That they slowly became Islamic was largely down to two facts of life which make a mockery of the tolerance myth: Muslims could not generally become Christians, and Christians had to pay a special tax, and so the class of people who subsidised the rest of the population gradually shrank over generations (a system that bears more than a passing resemblance to the modern British welfare state). From the 19th century a third factor arose when it became possible for Christians to emigrate to the West.

An Iraqi-British acquaintance of mine called Mardean Isaac says about the Guardian article:

“Using the word ‘tolerance’ here is slippery and insidious: ‘tolerate’ in the contemporary west means ‘see as at the least completely acceptable, at the most, equal or superior to’. See homosexuality, plurality of religion, lifestyle, modes of thought and being.

“Contrast with Islam’s historical ‘tolerance’, which has been apparently in continuous operation for centuries: see the jizya tax; see the requirement to wear distinctive clothing to demarcate non-Muslims; see the massive incentives to convert; see the economic and social marginalisation of the communities of subjugated peoples, from constraints on the social aspects of religious practice to building restrictions; see the barring of non-Muslim men from marrying Muslim women.”

Why is the European Left so unwilling to accept both the Islamic world’s past and present? Even Arab Muslim writers in the Middle East, who would like their countries to be more tolerant, accept the truth. Iraqi news agency AINA reports:


According to Dr ‘Abd Al-Khaliq Hussein the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims has not been as warm as some claim; in fact, it has often been tragic.

He argues there are plenty of passages in the Koran that justify religious persecution and that Al-Qaeda’s description of the Baghdad church as “a corrupt den of polytheism” echoes Ibn Taymiyya’s teachings.

Dr. Hussein says that the terrorists, aided by Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran, are seeking to empty Iraq of its Christians.

Another Iraqi commentator, ‘Aziz Al-Hajj, argues that the experience of the Iraqi Christians is no different from that of other Christians in the Middle East, who all suffer blunt discrimination, aggression; abuse of rights, and pressure to emigrate.

Al-Hajj points to the difference between the Muslims’ reaction to Islamophobia and their reaction to discrimination against non-Muslims in their own countries: When a Western politician makes an Islamophobic remark, or when a Western newspaper publishes what is viewed as offensive cartoons of the Prophet, Muslims scream blue murder. Yet very few raise their voice in defense of Christian Arabs, or call for the equal treatment of
Christians and other non-Muslims minorities in Muslim lands.

The article also points out that, in covering the recent Catholic Synod of Eastern Churches, the Arab press focused on one point – the Israeli occupation – but ignored others, such the Synod’s call for religious freedom and equality before the law.

Al-Hajj highlights the difference between the state of religious minorities in the West and in the Arab countries. In the West, he says, Muslims practice their religion in freedom, and maintain thousands of mosques.

Moreover, they are free to spread their religion, and openly celebrate each new convert. In contrast, Christians in the Muslim world are arrested for allegedly trying to spread Christianity, and a Muslim who converts to Christianity may face the death penalty.

Writing in Al-Hayat, columnist Houssam Itani described the crimes committed against Iraq’s Christians as part of a broader problem in Arab society, which is becoming increasingly monolithic in religion and ethnicity, destroying the last vestiges of cultural diversity.

Itani says that, if one considers Al-Qaeda’s threats against the Egyptian Copts, the Islamist pressure on the Lebanese Christians to make bitter and dangerous choices, and the aggression against the Christians in Iraq, the only possible way for Christians to escape this “dark environment” is to emigrate.

A number of columnists and officials underscored the need to protect the Christians in Iraq and throughout the Middle East.

In the same vein, the editor of the daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, Tariq Alhomayed, wrote an editorial titled “Protect Iraq’s Christians,” in which he stated: “It is imperative for all Iraqis, and not just the government, to protect Iraq’s Christians from killing, deportation and all the other kinds of persecution they are experiencing — particularly considering that they have never take part in anti-Iraqi alliances…”


Even Arab Muslims do not believe the Left’s shtick about Islamic tolerance.

What frustrates so many Iraqi Christians is that they look to the European Left, defender of minorities and of liberal democrats, to protect them, and are met with a wall of apathy. Why do people care about Palestinians and not us, someone asked me at the demonstration last week. Because it doesn’t fit into some convenient narrative?

Mardean says of the Guardian article that: “The writer is at pains to toe the old ‘the vast majority of people just want to get along’ line, which is all well and good as a vast abstraction, but when you’re in a situation where the actions of a few extremists have immense socio-political sway because they are prepared to use any means, no matter how violent, to advance their agenda and there’s no counter-balancing force to try and halt them, it doesn’t matter that they don’t represent the ‘majority’ view.

“The evidence that genocide of Christians in Iraq is underway is overwhelming. I simply despair at the entire reaction of the Left to our part of the world. It’s as if they’re talking about some Daily Mail article about rising crime and how scaremongers are exaggerating it to instil fear in people and get them to vote Tory.”

“’Christians’ were indeed relatively fine under the Ba’athist regime in Iraq, and the other secular nationalist regimes the author has mentioned… but what secular regimes did do is completely stamp out any ethnic differences.

“Christians in Iraq during this time are now still often referred to as ‘Arab Christians’ (as the author has scribbled down ignorantly), simply proving Saddam’s Arabisation campaign was largely a success. The fact is, a lot of us do not identify as Arab Christians. A lot of Assyrians left in the past not because of religious persecution but ethnic discrimination.

“If I wasn’t being kind, I’d say the whole article is basically a shrug in the face of our mass exodus from the Middle East and the validation of a ‘Christian West’ and a ‘Muslim East’. He almost implies we should go West, but expects many of us to stay, which is deeply troubling.”

On the radio piece on Monday morning, the question was asked whether Iraqi Christians should be evacuated to the West, which is the easiest solution and would avoid awkward conversations with our Middle Eastern allies.

But fearless Iraqi Christian MP Yonadam Kanna, of the Assyrian Democratic Movement, said that allowing Iraqis to move to Europe would help the Islamists. He told the BBC: “This is our home, we have been together with Muslims and this is our destiny to stay together. This is almost parallel to what al-Qaeda is doing to us, because al-Qaeda is pushing me out and you [the Europeans] are pulling me out. It is against my people’s interests.”

They don’t want to leave their jobs as professors to become cleaners in the West. In fact the ADM has repeatedly called for the establishment of an autonomous region in the north of the country for the country’s indigenous minorities, including not just Assyrian Christians but Mandeans, who worship John the Baptist, and Yazidis.

As Max says: “The great majority of Assyrian Christians in Iraq do not want to leave whatever happens. I saw a sign at a protest in Northern Iraq last week, which read ‘I am not a guest in this country. This is my country too’. As long as Assyrian Christians want to live there, and a great many do, it is the government’s responsibility and our responsibility as recent invaders to provide for them and ensure their safety.”

Indeed. I just saw on Twitter that William Hague sent a message wishing a “Happy Eid-ul-Adha” and a “safe return to all to British hajjis”. As he should – but doesn’t he have a responsibility to do something about Iraq’s Christians?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100063895/the-lefts-delusion-over-islam-is-baffling-to-middle-eastern-christians/

Great read. Does a great job pointing out the hypocrisy and lunacy of far-leftists like emmortal and kcballer.

Hedgehog

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2010, 06:20:00 AM »
I don't know what the position are of kcballer and emmortal.

But it's true that many feminists and left activists lose "political" foundation as soon as they start discussing Islam.

They have no problem standing up for Abortion clinics against Religious fanatics - as long as the fanatics are Christian that is.

But if the fanatics would be Muslims... :-\

If there are cartoons making fun of Jesus, portraying him as a fag, or just as a hippie, the Left will stand up for the Freedom of the Press.

But if an artist would write cartoons about Muhammed... Then the very same Leftists will claim the artist is offending Islam, that HE is a racist. Instead of backing him when the death threats arrives.

When homosexuals around the world are being harassed by Religious groups. The political Left will stand up for their rights. As long as those Religious groups are Christians of course.

Otherwise, the Left will just be silent. Numb.

When women are getting beat up and harassed, sexually assaulted, raped or just plain overlooked in our modern society, the Political Left will stand up for their rights.

Rightfully so.

But when the same thing happens - but much worse - women getting circumcised, stoned to death for "supposedly" having affairs, not being allowed to vote, being burned alive, whipped, gangraped, in general being 2nd class citizens in Muslim countries - then the Political and Cultural Left won't do jack shit.

It's an intellectual meltdown of epic proportions.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2010, 06:24:00 AM »
Most on the far left seek friendship with radical islamists because they sem them as fellow travelers trying to collapse the Great Satan and little Satan, the USA.   

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2010, 06:27:19 AM »
I don't know what the position are of kcballer and emmortal.

But it's true that many feminists and left activists lose "political" foundation as soon as they start discussing Islam.

They have no problem standing up for Abortion clinics against Religious fanatics - as long as the fanatics are Christian that is.

But if the fanatics would be Muslims... :-\

If there are cartoons making fun of Jesus, portraying him as a fag, or just as a hippie, the Left will stand up for the Freedom of the Press.

But if an artist would write cartoons about Muhammed... Then the very same Leftists will claim the artist is offending Islam, that HE is a racist. Instead of backing him when the death threats arrives.

When homosexuals around the world are being harassed by Religious groups. The political Left will stand up for their rights. As long as those Religious groups are Christians of course.

Otherwise, the Left will just be silent. Numb.

When women are getting beat up and harassed, sexually assaulted, raped or just plain overlooked in our modern society, the Political Left will stand up for their rights.

Rightfully so.

But when the same thing happens - but much worse - women getting circumcised, stoned to death for "supposedly" having affairs, not being allowed to vote, being burned alive, whipped, gangraped, in general being 2nd class citizens in Muslim countries - then the Political and Cultural Left won't do jack shit.

It's an intellectual meltdown of epic proportions.



GREAT post.... I heard a feminist on the radio one day talking about this and she was blasting the left for not denouncing the actions of muslims.

Fury

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 06:31:57 AM »

GREAT post.... I heard a feminist on the radio one day talking about this and she was blasting the left for not denouncing the actions of muslims.

I can't find it but I read a great article that pointed out that all feminist's have lost their credibility by refusing to even acknowledge that women are abused in almost every Muslim country. They're nothing more than opportunist douche bags like PETA.

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 06:45:17 AM »
I can't find it but I read a great article that pointed out that all feminist's have lost their credibility by refusing to even acknowledge that women are abused in almost every Muslim country. They're nothing more than opportunist douche bags like PETA.

These book club scumbags even have the stomach to bash Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch-Somali woman who wrote the screenplay for Theo van Gogh's  movie Submission.

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Fury

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2010, 06:47:21 AM »
These book club scumbags even have the stomach to bash Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch-Somali woman who wrote the screenplay for Theo van Gogh's  movie Submission.



She's become a favorite target of the apologists recently, which is pretty sad.

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 06:49:43 AM »
She's become a favorite target of the apologists recently, which is pretty sad.

Hedge - listen and learn.  Not saying this applies to you, but is is very apt for this thread and right on point.  . 




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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 07:05:00 AM »
Hedge - listen and learn.  Not saying this applies to you, but is is very apt for this thread and right on point.  . 





Savage has it backwards.

If you look at what Liberalism is, it does not support Islam.

It is everything that Islam isn't.

And to claim that Liberalism is a mental disorder - did Michael Savage skip every history lesson pertaining to the French Revolution, the founding of USA, the US constitution, Adam Smith, Benjamin Franklin, John Locke, et al.

Andrew Jackson anyone?



Michael Savage is quite frankly one dumb motherfcuker. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Another example - Theo van Gogh, the Dutch guy that was killed for OPPOSING Islam, he was a staunch, yeah you guessed it, ultra-liberal.

Yes, I think many Leftists and people who claims to be Liberal fails to critisise Islam.

But by doing so, I think they fail their Liberal ideals.

A true Liberal opposes Islam based on his/hers democratic beliefs.

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Soul Crusher

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 07:10:59 AM »
Please don't confuse classic liberalism on the ate 1800's with the moder progressive/marxist/communist version.

Savage is referrig to the modern liberals and leftists who are nothing more than thinly veiled marxists.   

Hedgehog

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 07:20:16 AM »
Please don't confuse classic liberalism on the ate 1800's with the moder progressive/marxist/communist version.

Savage is referrig to the modern liberals and leftists who are nothing more than thinly veiled marxists.   

Well, when Savage claims that Liberalism is a mental disease, he loses all credibility with me.

I get it that he's trying to be funny and tongue in cheek or whatever.
But he just comes off as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

And I prefer to listen, read or watch people who are smarter, better informed than myself.
I learn more from reading this board than turning into a sensationalist like Savage.
Guys like you, BF, Hugo, GW, Ozmo, 240 et al has more to offer IMO.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 07:22:52 AM »
Well, when Savage claims that Liberalism is a mental disease, he loses all credibility with me.

I get it that he's trying to be funny and tongue in cheek or whatever.
But he just comes off as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

And I prefer to listen, read or watch people who are smarter, better informed than myself.
I learn more from reading this board than turning into a sensationalist like Savage.
Guys like you, BF, Hugo, GW, Ozmo, 240 et al has more to offer IMO.

His point is that only a mentally disordered person would make enemies with people who seek them no physical harm, yet try to make allies and friendship with those who aredetermined to kill you and cut your throat.   

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 07:30:43 AM »
His point is that only a mentally disordered person would make enemies with people who seek them no physical harm, yet try to make allies and friendship with those who aredetermined to kill you and cut your throat.   

Yeah, I get that.

I don't agree with the way he reasons though.

His argument is basically - "they are against us, so we should be against them".

I think we should oppose Islamists as long as they don't change their views. Whether or not they are friendly is irrelevant.

The reason to blast the multiculti huggers are because they stand up for human rights at home.

But when it comes to their Muslim allies, they don't seem to care. Then it all of a sudden seems to be of no importance things like women's rights, democracy, independent media, et al.

And that's bullshit.
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Emmortal

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 10:21:03 AM »
I don't know what the position are of kcballer and emmortal.


I  have no idea why my name was drug into this considering I've never blankly defended Islam or Muslims in general.  If you are referring to the other thread where I clearly was defending the notion of not lumping entire groups of people into one category, then you should brush up on reading comprehension.

I think it's disgusting and completely grotesque what women have gone through under those conditions and I could care less if that's what their "religion" says for them to do, it's wrong, simple as that.

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 10:45:11 AM »
There needs to be more muslims standing up against extremism in these countries. 
Abandon every hope...

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 10:47:45 AM »
There needs to be more muslims standing up against extremism in these countries. 

I agree, but I actually understand to a degree why they don't.....the literal risk of them killing you, your entire family, etc... is very real.  I think muslims in the countries where their lives aren't threatened are the ones who should really speak out about this.  Instead of marching in europe for immigration reform, how about a massive march in those places against violence by muslims?  We'll never see it.

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 11:20:17 AM »
I agree, but I actually understand to a degree why they don't.....the literal risk of them killing you, your entire family, etc... is very real.  I think muslims in the countries where their lives aren't threatened are the ones who should really speak out about this.  Instead of marching in europe for immigration reform, how about a massive march in those places against violence by muslims?  We'll never see it.

Because, as polling shows, the number of Muslims who sympathize with, condone or outright endorse "extremist" Islam is much higher than people think.

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 11:21:40 AM »
Because, as polling shows, the number of Muslims who sympathize with, condone or outright endorse "extremist" Islam is much higher than people think.

yep.....

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Re: The Left's delusion over Islam is baffling to Middle Eastern Christians
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2010, 03:38:21 AM »
Because, as polling shows, the number of Muslims who sympathize with, condone or outright endorse "extremist" Islam is much higher than people think.

Sad but true. Thats what happens whenyou put religion before commen sence