Author Topic: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again  (Read 18951 times)

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #175 on: December 07, 2010, 07:06:09 PM »
please emmortal elaborate on your opinion for us, as apparently what youve been arguing for the past posts isnt it...

so please clarify...

Emmortal

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #176 on: December 07, 2010, 07:10:34 PM »
LOL then why are you arguing for this retard?

you ask for justification of something your already for?

more for you

"Attached to Clinton's message was a rundown of sites included in the 2008 "Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative" list. Some of the sites, such as border crossings, hydroelectric dams and shipping lanes, could hardly be considered secret.

But other locations, such as mines, manufacturers of components used in weapons systems, and vaccine and antivenin sources, probably were not widely known. The Associated Press has decided against publishing their names due to the sensitive nature of the information."

I give up, it's obvious people can't discuss their opinion without feeling attacked when all I wanted was the "why" of how you formed your opinion.

Not everyone here is interested in demeaning other people for the sake of their own shallow self worth. Some people want to know why others form their opinions and on what facts and actually enjoy discussing these topics without the immature and childish nonsense that perpetuates this board.

That's all.

Skip8282

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #177 on: December 07, 2010, 07:12:59 PM »
Skip: That's pretty much the answer I was looking for, unfortunately it took way too long to get to it and focus was put on people getting defensive instead of just answer the damn question.  The guy who released this to Wiki should be the main focus and more importantly, why did 2.5 million civilian and military people have access to exactly the same information this private did?  Why are people targeting their anger on Assange when we should be asking why the government doesn't have the proper security from stopping this in the first place?



Just because a lot of people have access to the data, does not mean the information is not sensitive or harmful to us.

IDK if you're one of these CT'rs who thinks that a small handful of "well-placed" (but never known or identified) people in government can pull off huge logistical operations, but the reality is it can't be done.  It takes a massive team effort to support our soldiers, protect our security, etc.  And, that puts the government in a quandry because it tries to protect data but is forced to trust a lot of people.  And sometimes, the wrong person gets trusted - as in this case.

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #178 on: December 07, 2010, 07:25:35 PM »
I give up, it's obvious people can't discuss their opinion without feeling attacked when all I wanted was the "why" of how you formed your opinion.

Not everyone here is interested in demeaning other people for the sake of their own shallow self worth. Some people want to know why others form their opinions and on what facts and actually enjoy discussing these topics without the immature and childish nonsense that perpetuates this board.

That's all.
LMAO then by all means bro discuss, ive shown you an example of something that will endanger american lives that was with held the first round and released the 2nd...ive shown that he has a propensity to not only release more but release more sensitive info as the releases go on...weve established its not black and white for freedom of info...

what more do you want?

please clarify your position on this...now it just seems like the stance youre arguing for got dismantled and youre running away...

240 is Back

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #179 on: December 07, 2010, 07:28:18 PM »
I've read anything from that to the condom broke during sex so they wanted to track him down for STD testing, to it was consensual sex but when the two girls found out about each other that's when they became upset and filed charges.  It doesn't exactly seem clear what happened at this point, just smells fishy =)


hahahaha epic railroading.

Skip8282

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #180 on: December 07, 2010, 07:35:37 PM »
LMAO then by all means bro discuss, ive shown you an example of something that will endanger american lives that was with held the first round and released the 2nd...ive shown that he has a propensity to not only release more but release more sensitive info as the releases go on...weve established its not black and white for freedom of info...

what more do you want?

please clarify your position on this...now it just seems like the stance youre arguing for got dismantled and youre running away...



He's not talking to you anymore because he's against releasing information.  You can only be either for it, or against - there's no gray area.

I'm against it.  So, I'm going to stop talking to you right.....now!
















Well, maybe after the football season...




















































OK, actually after March........










































But I'll definitely stop talking to you before the next election....

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #181 on: December 07, 2010, 07:38:09 PM »


He's not talking to you anymore because he's against releasing information.  You can only be either for it, or against - there's no gray area.

I'm against it.  So, I'm going to stop talking to you right.....now!
















Well, maybe after the football season...




















































OK, actually after March........










































But I'll definitely stop talking to you before the next election....
LOL

steelers looked good sunday...hope rapelisburger gets healthy i need big performances from him for fantasy  ;D

Fury

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #182 on: December 07, 2010, 09:02:31 PM »


It's completely relevant to your absurd claim that you have to be either pro freedom of information or against it.  If we're going off your own logic, you're obviously against it.

As to your other argument, you're asking for proof of casuality and that's difficult, if not impossible, to establish.  Let's just say, hypothetically, that wiki released details about our supply chain and the terrorists used it to attack our troops.  We may never know if they found the weakness through wiki, or just discovered it through happenstance.  So, why not err on the side of caution and simply try to keep the info private?

It's far better to err on the side of caution, then put our troops at risk.  As for killing Assange, that might be going a little far - but the shitbag American who gave him the data?  I've got no problem if somebody capped his ass.

Skip dropping the hammer.  8)

gcb

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #183 on: December 07, 2010, 09:10:47 PM »
US got caught with it's pants down - get over it. As for Assange, I'm Australian and I do consider him a patriot.

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #184 on: December 07, 2010, 09:24:27 PM »
US got caught with it's pants down - get over it. As for Assange, I'm Australian and I do consider him a patriot.
LOL pants down???

this d bag deserves what he will get...

why do you consider this guy a patriot?

gcb

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #185 on: December 07, 2010, 09:30:30 PM »
He's done nothing for me to consider him unpatriotic and I consider his activities beneficial.

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #186 on: December 07, 2010, 09:33:44 PM »
He's done nothing for me to consider him unpatriotic and I consider his activities beneficial.
So being patriotic is the default attribute for australians? LOL what has he done for you to consider him patriotic?

you consider putting innocent ppls lives in danger beneficial?

gcb

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #187 on: December 07, 2010, 09:35:21 PM »
So being patriotic is the default attribute for australians? LOL what has he done for you to consider him patriotic?

you consider putting innocent ppls lives in danger beneficial?

I don't believe anyones life has been put in danger - only peoples reputations. And as far as reputations go if you can't do the time don't do the crime.

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #188 on: December 07, 2010, 09:41:49 PM »
I don't believe anyones life has been put in danger - only peoples reputations. And as far as reputations go if you can't do the time don't do the crime.
LOL so you dont feel that releasing something like this

LOL and ive asked if you disagree that the intel that he has released is putting ppls lives in danger? pretty simple to answer that...how about the 10 sites thingy

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13624139

read that and tell me you think he is not placing the lives of ppl that man those places in danger...

that includes info like this

"In the message, marked "secret," Clinton asked U.S. diplomatic posts to help update a list of sites around the world "which, if destroyed, disrupted or exploited, would likely have an immediate and deleterious effect on the United States."

The list was considered so confidential that the contributors were advised to come up with the information on their own: Posts are "not being asked to consult with host governments in respect to this request," Clinton wrote.

and this

"Attached to Clinton's message was a rundown of sites included in the 2008 "Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative" list. Some of the sites, such as border crossings, hydroelectric dams and shipping lanes, could hardly be considered secret.

But other locations, such as mines, manufacturers of components used in weapons systems, and vaccine and antivenin sources, probably were not widely known. The Associated Press has decided against publishing their names due to the sensitive nature of the information."

is putting anyones life in danger?  ::) ::) ::)

gcb

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #189 on: December 07, 2010, 09:49:12 PM »
Overblown really - I didn't see you complaining about Climategate which was also WikiLeaks doing.

gcb

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #190 on: December 07, 2010, 09:56:52 PM »
"US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan. NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn't find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/dont-shoot-messenger-for-revealing-uncomfortable-truths/story-fn775xjq-1225967241332

Emmortal

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #191 on: December 07, 2010, 10:26:38 PM »
LMAO then by all means bro discuss, ive shown you an example of something that will endanger american lives that was with held the first round and released the 2nd...ive shown that he has a propensity to not only release more but release more sensitive info as the releases go on...weve established its not black and white for freedom of info...

what more do you want?

please clarify your position on this...now it just seems like the stance youre arguing for got dismantled and youre running away...

Some people actually work out on this board, which is why I didn't immediately respond to these last posts.

Again, you've loosely tied your example through opinionated diatribe, not factual evidence.  They announced their plan to stagger releases prior to releasing anything at all, I'd give your argument credence if they had not done this, otherwise it's just conjecture on your part.

Secondly, how exactly could my argument have been dismantled if I wasn't arguing a stance to begin with, let alone state what exactly my stance was?  There's really no need for a dick swinging contest, there's already plenty of threads where you can do that.

Lastly, my stance is that I'm 100% for the release of these documents and Assange should not be prosecuted in any way shape or form.  If Bradley Manning, the person who allegedly stole these documents and gave them to Wikileaks, did in fact steal them then he should be dealt with accordingly.

Nothing is without repercussions, and there most certainly will be plenty on both sides.  Going after Assange is meaningless and will have no effect whatsoever on future leaks of this nature.

garebear

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #192 on: December 08, 2010, 03:12:52 AM »
I give up, it's obvious people can't discuss their opinion without feeling attacked when all I wanted was the "why" of how you formed your opinion.

Not everyone here is interested in demeaning other people for the sake of their own shallow self worth. Some people want to know why others form their opinions and on what facts and actually enjoy discussing these topics without the immature and childish nonsense that perpetuates this board.

That's all.
Are we not supposed to do that?

Man, that's why I HAVE the internet.
G

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #193 on: December 08, 2010, 06:32:00 AM »
Overblown really - I didn't see you complaining about Climategate which was also WikiLeaks doing.
did climategate bs put ppls lives in danger?

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #194 on: December 08, 2010, 06:32:59 AM »
"US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan. NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn't find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/dont-shoot-messenger-for-revealing-uncomfortable-truths/story-fn775xjq-1225967241332
so you really think that releasing a top 10 list of critical US sites isnt putting those ppl in danger of attacks by terrorist?

really?

tonymctones

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #195 on: December 08, 2010, 06:35:21 AM »
Some people actually work out on this board, which is why I didn't immediately respond to these last posts.

Again, you've loosely tied your example through opinionated diatribe, not factual evidence.  They announced their plan to stagger releases prior to releasing anything at all, I'd give your argument credence if they had not done this, otherwise it's just conjecture on your part.

Secondly, how exactly could my argument have been dismantled if I wasn't arguing a stance to begin with, let alone state what exactly my stance was?  There's really no need for a dick swinging contest, there's already plenty of threads where you can do that.

Lastly, my stance is that I'm 100% for the release of these documents and Assange should not be prosecuted in any way shape or form.  If Bradley Manning, the person who allegedly stole these documents and gave them to Wikileaks, did in fact steal them then he should be dealt with accordingly.

Nothing is without repercussions, and there most certainly will be plenty on both sides.  Going after Assange is meaningless and will have no effect whatsoever on future leaks of this nature.
LOL im one of them broham

LOL so basically your stance is exactly that which youve been arguing?

LMFAO nice, real nice hahahah

gcb

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #196 on: December 08, 2010, 09:25:21 PM »
so you really think that releasing a top 10 list of critical US sites isnt putting those ppl in danger of attacks by terrorist?

really?

let's face reality here - if Wikileaks can get them then your enemies probably already know about them

Soul Crusher

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #197 on: December 09, 2010, 06:20:54 AM »
WikiLeaks Cables Confirm Worst Fears of Climate Skeptics
Pajamas Media ^ | December 9, 2010 | Charlie Martin


________________________ ________________________ _________

Domestic political considerations far outweighed any scientific basis for the Copenhagen Accord.

Just a year ago, the Climategate files — a collection of emails, data, and computer source code — were somehow purloined from the University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit and made public. Pajamas Media was one of the first news organizations to cover them, with the first breaking news story out within hours of their first discovery (“Hacker Releases Data Implicating CRU in Global Warming Fraud“).

The full consequences are not yet clear, but the files’ release probably led to the collapse of the Copenhagen climate conference — to which the Obama administration had committed no little amount of political capital — and certainly contributed to the public’s increasing skepticism about the supposed consensus of climate science.


In some ways, the most surprising part of the Climategate files was how well they confirmed the dark suspicions of climate skeptics: there really were problems with replicating some of the most quoted results, there really had been some questionable manipulations made so the data would present the “right” picture, and there really was a somewhat covert group, composed of scientists on the “human agency” side of the argument and certain “reliable” environmental journalists, who were working together to suppress counter-evidence and assassinate the reputations of the skeptics.

Almost exactly a year later, Julius Assange and the WikiLeaks website revealed another collection of similarly purloined data. This time, the data was a collection of diplomatic cable traffic among American diplomats all over the world, some of it considered very sensitive — classified SECRET. Again, the purloined messages proved very embarrassing to the authors, although in this case the damage wasn’t just to egos and reputations; the cables did damage to American interests, even to national security.

On December 3rd, the Guardian newspaper in the United Kingdom published one of a series of stories based on the cables, this one titled “WikiLeaks cables reveal how U.S. manipulated climate accord.” The United States really was applying considerable political and diplomatic pressure on other players; the scientific “consensus” had long since been subsumed by the pressure to score a political win. As the Guardian put it:


Hidden behind the save-the-world rhetoric of the global climate change negotiations lies the mucky realpolitik: money and threats buy political support; spying and cyberwarfare are used to seek out leverage.

The bribes — sorry, I mean promised aid — was no mean amount of money. The Guardian reports amounts in the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars. The government of the Maldives set their price at $30 million. With a population of roughly 300,000, that is $100 per person in a country where the average household gets by on $450 a year.


This pressure, however, wasn’t limited to financial transactions: the United States was developing intelligence on the other participants in the conferences.

Seeking negotiating chips, the U.S. State Department sent a secret cable on July 31, 2009, seeking human intelligence from UN diplomats across a range of issues, including climate change. The request originated with the CIA. As well as countries’ negotiating positions for Copenhagen, diplomats were asked to provide evidence of UN environmental “treaty circumvention” and deals between nations.


At the same time, foreign powers — most probably at least including the People’s Republic of China — used sophisticated social engineering and cyberwar methods to get leverage in the upcoming negotiations.

On June 19, 2009, the State Department sent a cable detailing a “spear phishing” attack on the office of the U.S. climate change envoy … while talks with China on emissions took place in Beijing.

“Spear phishing” is an attack in which a carefully customized email message to a particular person, including personal information and promising something sure to be of interest to the recipient, is used to introduce a “Trojan horse” program, and while the cables don’t actually identify the suspects, it’s the same style of attack, and exactly the same exploit, that the Chinese used on Google.


The Guardian article is an amusing exercise in cognitive dissonance. The CIA wanted to collect intelligence on the other participants: CIA, ooh, bad! But it was to push through the global warming treaty. Wait. Global warming treaty, oooh, good! The Guardian writers clearly had some trouble deciding what they really thought.

By the time the Copenhagen conference came around, domestic political considerations inside the Obama administration had far outweighed whatever scientific basis originally drove the negotiations. On the other side of the table, pious public mouthing of global-warming dogma was replaced by straight-out monetary transactions: if you want our agreement, come up with the most cash. And China, South Africa, Brazil, and India were working the process with both politics and less savory means, to make sure they had the leverage to get what they wanted.


The lesson of the WikiLeaks climate cables turns out to be very much like the lesson of the Climategate files last year. The most surprising aspect of this story is how thoroughly the cables confirm the dark suspicions of climate skeptics.


Emmortal

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #198 on: December 09, 2010, 12:14:23 PM »
It's completely relevant to your absurd claim that you have to be either pro freedom of information or against it.  If we're going off your own logic, you're obviously against it.

We're talking about freedom of information in regards to the government, not private citizens.  I have a basic right to privacy under constitutional law, the government does not.  The government works for US, the citizens of the United States and to even try and compare the two just shows your complete lack of understanding of the issues involved in this matter.  The relationship of our government and its citizens is pretty clear if you look at what people like John Locke and Thomas Jefferson had to say about it.  Other than defensive secrets (which are fine to keep disclosed for obvious reasons) the government shouldn't have anything to hide and when they do the people of this country should be demanding that they be revealed.  The only reason there would be anything to hide is to cover up corruption.  The government serves the purpose of protecting the citizens, once that agreement has been broken (corruption) or it has done ANYTHING at all other than their best to protect the citizens then we have a moral obligation to overthrow that government.

Skip8282

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Re: Wiki Leaks Blows the Lid off Again
« Reply #199 on: December 09, 2010, 05:38:00 PM »
We're talking about freedom of information in regards to the government, not private citizens.  I have a basic right to privacy under constitutional law, the government does not.  The government works for US, the citizens of the United States and to even try and compare the two just shows your complete lack of understanding of the issues involved in this matter.


Of course the two are comparable.  The government has a vested interest in keeping certain information confidential, just as you do.  If information is released that could hurt you, you don't want it out there.  If information is released that may hurt the government, the government doesn't want it out there.

The real issue is the government failing to release information, not because it would harmful, but because it would be embarrasing, show corruption, etc.  That's what need to be addressed.

Second, your statement was addressed at an individual.  Your statement is that a PERSON must be either pro freedom of information or against.  And that's about as ridiculous as your understanding of the issue.





Quote

 The relationship of our government and its citizens is pretty clear if you look at what people like John Locke and Thomas Jefferson had to say about it. 


This is just dumb as hell.  People argue all the time about what the relationship of government should be, and whether or not the so-called "Father of Liberalism" is right or wrong.  And hell, just look at TA's posts on Jefferson.  The only thing pretty clear about the relationship is that everybody has their own opinion.



Quote
Other than defensive secrets (which are fine to keep disclosed for obvious reasons)


How can this be?  You are either for freedom of information, or you're against it - well, according to you anyway.




Quote
the government shouldn't have anything to hide and when they do the people of this country should be demanding that they be revealed.  The only reason there would be anything to hide is to cover up corruption.



You honestly can't be this dumb.  So the government should release people's tax records for everybody to see?  How about we tell the criminals all of our investigative techniques?  Maybe we should release people's work schedules so that the next McVeigh can time his bomb a little better?


Again, the government has a vested interest in keeping some things confidential.  It's a balance and the government doesn't always do a good job.  There's always room for improvement.


Incidentally, foreign countries and terrorists typically piece meal data.  Knowing the deployment of a soldier may not seem like a big deal in and of itself.  Knowing their destination may not be a big deal in and of itself.  Knowing his training may not seem like a big deal in and of itself.  Start putting the pieces together though, and you could have some very formidable intel on a unit.  But, no - the government should give the piece meal data out to satisfy the Emmortals of the world.  ::)