Author Topic: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?  (Read 10256 times)

tallgerman

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by the way how did mentzer differ from dorian?

did dorian train under mentzer?
or?


anyone read dorian's blood n guts?

JP_RC

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 05:15:49 AM »
Mentzer's methods were not working great that's why there are almost no people doing them.

tallgerman

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 05:19:23 AM »


what about dorian?

JP_RC

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 05:44:06 AM »
Different than Menzer's methods...they work for some people but not for the majority.

Fatpanda

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 08:15:40 AM »
dorian was the apprentice.

he admitted it himself.

he took jones and mentzers ideas and moulded a system from them.
175lbs by 31st July

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 08:22:31 AM »
they kinda did some photo ops back in the day where metzner was training dorian


but that was not a permanent thing, as dorian was from engalnd and had training partners, and like to do his own thing


dorian was known for intensity, but he didnt dot HIT technically like metzner...........he did more set, and hard warm up sets that wouldnt strictly bn deemed HIT





metzner was a mess for most of the 80s and 90............he was in no position to mentor anyone.......

jwb

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 08:24:35 AM »
How awesome does Haney look in that pic!

kiwiol

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 08:31:25 AM »
they kinda did some photo ops back in the day where metzner was training dorian


but that was not a permanent thing, as dorian was from engalnd and had training partners, and like to do his own thing


dorian was known for intensity, but he didnt dot HIT technically like metzner...........he did more set, and hard warm up sets that wouldnt strictly bn deemed HIT


metzner was a mess for most of the 80s and 90............he was in no position to mentor anyone.......


Spot on.

I don't know how much Mentzer really contributed to the establishing of HIT as a proper school of training. The idea was originally Arthur Jones', which Mentzer spoke and wrote volumes about, inbetween injecting popular philosophical phrases and arguments coined mostly by Ayn Rand, Nietzsche and Aristotle, to make the whole presentation look intellectual, when most of it was just window dressing.

Dorian himself mentioned in interviews and elsewhere that he never really got mentored or even trained by Mike regularly. They just did a photoshoot or 2 together, when Doz visited the US.

local hero

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 08:33:37 AM »
blood and guts totaly changed my perspective on training, and totaly improved me and i wished id read it before i even started training, but saying i started before it was published thats all hindsight..

PJim

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 08:43:43 AM »
FFS this Mentzer stuff is doing my head in, let the poor bastard rest in peace.

loco

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 08:45:39 AM »
Mike Mentzer training Dorian Yates

Fatpanda

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 08:46:06 AM »
mentzer did train dorian, twice in golds venice.
175lbs by 31st July

kiwiol

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 08:46:58 AM »
FFS this Mentzer stuff is doing my head in, let the poor bastard rest in peace.

Haha I'm always harsh with my views on him. Maybe it's because he used to take Ayn Rand's name in vain 8)

The Showstoppa

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2010, 08:48:58 AM »
Haha I'm always harsh with my views on him. Maybe it's because he used to take Ayn Rand's name in vain 8)

That old bag...... :-\ ::)




 ;D

kiwiol

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 08:54:35 AM »
That old bag...... :-\ ::)


 ;D

Oh brother, you sound like you'd mug her for a marble rye, tough guy

PJim

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2010, 08:59:43 AM »
Haha I'm always harsh with my views on him. Maybe it's because he used to take Ayn Rand's name in vain 8)

I've got to be honest, I really have a fondness for him, he got me thinking about training, not just going with the "workout hard and often mentality "any longer, which  I followed for two years and had literally NO size or strength increases. I've put almost 7 (!) inches on my arms, (I used to weigh 128 lbs 6 years ago shredded) and just generally blown up. I'm now a pretty lean 200 lbs. BUT, the biggest impact is in him helping me read Ayn Rand. Seriously, anybody who hates her and blasts her views need to sit and LISTEN/READ. The woman was spot on.

kiwiol

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2010, 09:12:34 AM »
I've got to be honest, I really have a fondness for him, he got me thinking about training, not just going with the "workout hard and often mentality "any longer, which  I followed for two years and had literally NO size or strength increases. I've put almost 7 (!) inches on my arms, (I used to weigh 128 lbs 6 years ago shredded) and just generally blown up. I'm now a pretty lean 200 lbs. BUT, the biggest impact is in him helping me read Ayn Rand. Seriously, anybody who hates her and blasts her views need to sit and LISTEN/READ. The woman was spot on.

I haven't read his book, but did read a whole lot of articles he wrote in FLEX back in the 90s (which weren't ghost written) and what I've said above is the honest impression I got from him. But I know he's inspired many people, like yourself.

And you're absolutely right about AR 8)

Tito24

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2010, 09:15:37 AM »
my method works also good, its lifting the weight up and then down.

PJim

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2010, 09:23:57 AM »
I haven't read his book, but did read a whole lot of articles he wrote in FLEX back in the 90s (which weren't ghost written) and what I've said above is the honest impression I got from him. But I know he's inspired many people, like yourself.

And you're absolutely right about AR 8)

 I recommend Heavy Duty 2; Mind and Body and High Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way, great reads. Read it HD 2 in a day. His radio interview with "T.C" on youtube is particularly interesting to listen to.

Cableguy

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2010, 09:26:48 AM »
Mike Mentzer training Dorian Yates

Used to love that particular piece of Hammer Strength equipment Dorian is using. My back used to get the best pumps from that machine...

SilverSpoon

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2010, 11:56:11 AM »
HDII had me go from 165 to 190 in 4 months, with very little change in bf%.
However, I went from a sport of running around all of the time (tennis) to doing no cardio, as my collegiate career was finished, so objectively, not running around all of the time accounted for some of my natural weight gain.
I ate a very well balanced diet, including 2 Myoplex shakes a day (this was 1998).  I also took Phosphagen HP, which was popular at the time.  Eggs, milk, lots of nuts, bananas, apples, grapefruit, roast chicken, tuna, sushi, oatmeal was basically all that I ate, except for pizza on training day.
I started training once every 4 days, then went to once ever 5 days, where I made my best progress.  After training sessions, due to reading/digesting everything ever written by Arthur Jones, I ate an entire pizza, as I envisioned myself as Sergio Oliva in 1972 (still to this day, I think the most impressive bodybuilder of any era, that year).
Many that knew me well, including my mother, accused me of juicing, as I had a half brother that was an obvious juicer.
Eventually, I became a knucklehead and forgot that I was bodybuilding, not powerlifting.  This lead to piriformis syndrome, some back pain that resulted from muscular imbalance (fixing it still, but is a whole lot better), and not directly training arms (mistake).
Now, I am trying to get leaner, play golf, and get sleep (tough to do with a newborn).

Where I think Mentzer was truly off in his theories was that a pump was NOT necessary.  It is not necessary for strength gains, but I feel it is necessary for changes in muscular appearance.  This activity is all about illusion in the first place, no?

PJim

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2010, 12:09:18 PM »
HDII had me go from 165 to 190 in 4 months, with very little change in bf%.
However, I went from a sport of running around all of the time (tennis) to doing no cardio, as my collegiate career was finished, so objectively, not running around all of the time accounted for some of my natural weight gain.
I ate a very well balanced diet, including 2 Myoplex shakes a day (this was 1998).  I also took Phosphagen HP, which was popular at the time.  Eggs, milk, lots of nuts, bananas, apples, grapefruit, roast chicken, tuna, sushi, oatmeal was basically all that I ate, except for pizza on training day.
I started training once every 4 days, then went to once ever 5 days, where I made my best progress.  After training sessions, due to reading/digesting everything ever written by Arthur Jones, I ate an entire pizza, as I envisioned myself as Sergio Oliva in 1972 (still to this day, I think the most impressive bodybuilder of any era, that year).
Many that knew me well, including my mother, accused me of juicing, as I had a half brother that was an obvious juicer.
Eventually, I became a knucklehead and forgot that I was bodybuilding, not powerlifting.  This lead to piriformis syndrome, some back pain that resulted from muscular imbalance (fixing it still, but is a whole lot better), and not directly training arms (mistake).
Now, I am trying to get leaner, play golf, and get sleep (tough to do with a newborn).

Where I think Mentzer was truly off in his theories was that a pump was NOT necessary.  It is not necessary for strength gains, but I feel it is necessary for changes in muscular appearance.  This activity is all about illusion in the first place, no?

The pump is not essential

dj181

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2010, 12:21:35 PM »
That's pretty damn impressive SilverSpoon! You went from 165 to 190 in 4 months with little change in bodyfat and absolutely no cardio training once every 4 or 5 days? I'm curious man, could you post up some of your strength progressions that occured within that 4 month period? As my own example my leg press went from 3 plates per side to 5 plates per side for 6 reps over a 5 week period training legs once every 6 days.

SilverSpoon

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 12:48:34 PM »
DJ, I don't have my journals in front of me, but my deadlift went from 185 x 17 (first session) to 315 x 12 or so.  My traps and erectors grew the most.  I looked waaay out of balance, as I had traps that were too big.
My shoulders grew very well on the Nautilus lateral raise/ohp pre-exhaust (seperate machines, not the original pre-exhaust model).
I did not focus enough on direct arm work, which was stupid, but HDII did not advocate much direct arm work. 
I wish I would have focused more on barbell squats, as at the time, I had access to the finest machines in the world (MedX, Nautilus and Hammer Strength), so I used them.
My quads grew like crazy from the leg extension/leg press pre-exhaust advocated by HDII.  I got up to using the entire stack on the MedX leg extension (not in the first 4 months mind you) for perfect 4/2/4 cadence, for 9 or 10 repetitions. 
I would throw up after nearly every workout, as I trained like a man possessed.  I have a very compulsive personality, and that is the only way I knew how to train (before I tempered this compulsion down a few notches).  This personality trait/flaw/positive is why I never tried drugs or gambling.  Truth, I never even tried weed. 

Meso_z

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2010, 12:52:10 PM »
my method works also good, its lifting the weight up and then down.
hahaha