Author Topic: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?  (Read 10296 times)

dj181

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2010, 01:02:32 PM »
Thanks for the reply man! So I take it that you got the most grow in your traps, delts, and quads yes? What about your arms and your torso (chest/back)? And did you follow the exact protocol that Mentzer advocated? Day 1: Chest/Back 3 or 4 days off then Day 2: Legs and then another 3 or 4 days off then Day 3: Delts/Arms then another 3 or 4 days off and then Day 4: Legs? Also, it's pretty amazing to me that you didn't really get fatter and gained mostly muscle with training every 4 or 5 days and no cardio :-0 P.S. Maybe you can see from my post that I'm a bit obsessive myself ;D

SilverSpoon

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2010, 01:09:20 PM »
DJ, I followed it to the letter, but started with 4 days of rest, then 5 (where I made my best progress--this probably came after the initial 4 months).
You have to realize I came from a cardio based background (tennis), and was practically starved at 160-165.  So, I was ready to blow up and would more than likely gained 10 pounds without doing anything weight related.
My chest got bigger, especially doing the Nautilus 10 degree chest and Nautilus Series III bench press in combination.  Of course my back got bigger, but not as developed as my traps.
Where I eventually got derailed is when I got so obsessed about form and cadence of the repetition (took too much of the athleticism out of training), and my ego got in the way where I became too obsessed about the amount of weight I was moving, where I stopped feeling the muscles doing the work.
This should have been a red flag to me, but I listened to Mentzer a bit too much, and became completely not concerned about a pump.  I stopped doing calves as well, which was a mistake, but Mike was telling trainees to not train them if they weren't growing.

no one

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2010, 01:23:54 PM »
The pump is not essential

i disagree.

b

funk51

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2010, 01:31:57 PM »
did a search blood and guts book goes for 85 bucks and up used  while mentzer's the wisdom of mentzer can be had for 7 dollars. i think that speaks volumes.
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Fatpanda

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2010, 02:20:46 PM »
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cephissus

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2010, 02:50:34 PM »
Where I eventually got derailed is when I got so obsessed about form and cadence of the repetition (took too much of the athleticism out of training), and my ego got in the way where I became too obsessed about the amount of weight I was moving, where I stopped feeling the muscles doing the work.
This should have been a red flag to me, but I listened to Mentzer a bit too much, and became completely not concerned about a pump.  I stopped doing calves as well, which was a mistake, but Mike was telling trainees to not train them if they weren't growing.

A post every bber should read, IMO.  Same thing happened to me.  Except I wasn't even obsessed with form, just weight on the bar.  Pretty soon I wasn't feeling anything, and the injuries started piling up.  I messed up practically every joint to some degree and am still trying to correct my form years later, all the while being forced to baby joints that will explode at the slightest provocation.

PJim

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2010, 03:13:31 PM »
DJ, I followed it to the letter, but started with 4 days of rest, then 5 (where I made my best progress--this probably came after the initial 4 months).
You have to realize I came from a cardio based background (tennis), and was practically starved at 160-165.  So, I was ready to blow up and would more than likely gained 10 pounds without doing anything weight related.
My chest got bigger, especially doing the Nautilus 10 degree chest and Nautilus Series III bench press in combination.  Of course my back got bigger, but not as developed as my traps.
Where I eventually got derailed is when I got so obsessed about form and cadence of the repetition (took too much of the athleticism out of training), and my ego got in the way where I became too obsessed about the amount of weight I was moving, where I stopped feeling the muscles doing the work.
This should have been a red flag to me, but I listened to Mentzer a bit too much, and became completely not concerned about a pump.  I stopped doing calves as well, which was a mistake, but Mike was telling trainees to not train them if they weren't growing.

The calves thing is weird, I stopped directly training them 4 years ago   from the advice and they have grown 3 inches...my tibialis is very well developed especially from all the negatives on leg days. Mike wasn't saying "don't get a pump"-He was merely describing what a pump was; temporary blood increase to the working muscle. Yes, if getting a pump helps you train more intensely for psychological reasons(eg visual motivation), go ahead, but he was simply trying to explain that it is not the growth stimulus itself. Like Mike said "Hell, there're  guys over at Gold's gym who've been getting a pump pretty much everyday, sometimes twice a day  for  over 20 years, you'd think they'd have 30 inch arms by now ".  ;D

tallgerman

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2010, 03:16:56 PM »
I've got to be honest, I really have a fondness for him, he got me thinking about training, not just going with the "workout hard and often mentality "any longer, which  I followed for two years and had literally NO size or strength increases. I've put almost 7 (!) inches on my arms, (I used to weigh 128 lbs 6 years ago shredded) and just generally blown up. I'm now a pretty lean 200 lbs. BUT, the biggest impact is in him helping me read Ayn Rand. Seriously, anybody who hates her and blasts her views need to sit and LISTEN/READ. The woman was spot on.

we are seeing a lack of ayn rand in our economic downturn and debt problem now

she was widely read in the reagan white house during eocnomic growth and plenty times for common man with real weage going up

tallgerman

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2010, 03:21:24 PM »
can someone sum up blood+guts?

what are the workouts and advice?


PJim

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2010, 03:28:18 PM »
we are seeing a lack of ayn rand in our economic downturn and debt problem now

she was widely read in the reagan white house during eocnomic growth and plenty times for common man with real weage going up

 Seriously, objectivism itself has solidified my childhood perception of morality. I always knew that the "put others first (even strangers)", "sacrifice your hapiness" and "being responsible for the well being  of every lazy, immoral riffraff" mentality  was a bullshit cop-out for people who can't take responsibility from the age of 10. BTW Kiwiol, we need to start a Team Rand, guy.

no one

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2010, 04:00:37 PM »
::) no pump it is then.


whats wrong, porky?

do you think if you post think if you post that pic long enough that people will start believing its me? what a wonderful, magical little land you must live in. lol

anyway, no matter who that is, its still a far sight better than you- look at you- wtf all that effort so far and you still look like shit!

keep up the good work, ass crack.
b

Galvatron

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2010, 04:09:21 PM »
DJ, I don't have my journals in front of me, but my deadlift went from 185 x 17 (first session) to 315 x 12 or so.  My traps and erectors grew the most.  I looked waaay out of balance, as I had traps that were too big.
My shoulders grew very well on the Nautilus lateral raise/ohp pre-exhaust (seperate machines, not the original pre-exhaust model).
I did not focus enough on direct arm work, which was stupid, but HDII did not advocate much direct arm work. 
I wish I would have focused more on barbell squats, as at the time, I had access to the finest machines in the world (MedX, Nautilus and Hammer Strength), so I used them.
My quads grew like crazy from the leg extension/leg press pre-exhaust advocated by HDII.  I got up to using the entire stack on the MedX leg extension (not in the first 4 months mind you) for perfect 4/2/4 cadence, for 9 or 10 repetitions. 
I would throw up after nearly every workout, as I trained like a man possessed.  I have a very compulsive personality, and that is the only way I knew how to train (before I tempered this compulsion down a few notches).  This personality trait/flaw/positive is why I never tried drugs or gambling.  Truth, I never even tried weed. 


you trained hard, that is the secret. not the routine in itself.

SilverSpoon

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2010, 05:28:47 PM »
Seriously, objectivism itself has solidified my childhood perception of morality. I always knew that the "put others first (even strangers)", "sacrifice your hapiness" and "being responsible for the well being  of every lazy, immoral riffraff" mentality  was a bullshit cop-out for people who can't take responsibility from the age of 10. BTW Kiwiol, we need to start a Team Rand, guy.

PJim, Rand is one of the most influential writers of any era, for good reason.
Ed Snyder, owner of the Philadelphia Flyers, Sixers, etc. is a huge fan of Rand.  I once sat with him in his personal box at a Flyers game and we barely watched the game, as we were engaged in a discussion on objectivisim (2000 or 2001).
Team Rand would be a good idea.
My take on objectivism has helped form my views on charity, as it is best done anonymously, not forced by the government through assistance programs (this issue is sort of hot in my mind during this time of year, when I personally choose to help families in need--I do not seek recognition).
Interesting that Anton LaVey was a huge advocate of Rand, yet dead-set against traditional notions of religion; I don't feel the two are mutually exclusive.

Regarding Blood and Guts, it is a very good book, especially where Dorian speaks of healthy fats in the diet.  I have a copy that a much older lifter gave me about 7 years ago.  I was a bit better built at the time, as I was living with the parents, and training in a fully equipped Nautilus/Hammer Strength/free weight basement that I personally outfitted with the best equipment for training, selecting each piece carefully (trap bars, Buffalo bar, neck machine, Nautilus plate loaded pullover, etc.).  I don't get to train there as often as I would like, but I am getting back on the horse with better dietary knowledge and no attempt to look huge, which I actually think is a key part of getting huge.

Fatpanda

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2010, 02:10:29 AM »
whats wrong, porky?

do you think if you post think if you post that pic long enough that people will start believing its me? what a wonderful, magical little land you must live in. lol

anyway, no matter who that is, its still a far sight better than you- look at you- wtf all that effort so far and you still look like shit!

keep up the good work, ass crack.

everyone knows its you princess, i don't have to try.

no need to melt about it. just accept you look like shit and do something about it, like i am.

oh and you better right click and save my old pics slim, because i'll never be that fat again. Every month im getting slimmer. Sooner or later i'll be ripped - what will your excuse be then ?

p.s. your frog like physique has nothing on me even in my current state.
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caseyviator

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2010, 06:36:31 AM »
my training is super scientific...i go from exercise to exercise lifting the weights up and down.  for extra intensity i sometimes do 2 exercises rite in a row!!!!!!!!!!!!! whew  now thats trainin!!!!

Ropo

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2010, 10:54:38 AM »
can someone sum up blood+guts?

what are the workouts and advice?


Let see...the most important message from any modern bodybuilding guide will be "USE YOUR BRAINS, YOU FOOL". What you should do is know your weaknesses and your limitations and build your exercises around those facts, using guidelines of those books. After few years of training you should know how your body works, and without that knowledge you are wasting your time. If you have that knowledge, you should be smart enough to know what exercises are good for you, and how to modify them to suit your training. There isn't any expert who would know those things better than you, if you know your body. If not, there isn't any expert who can teach you about that matter. Bodybuilding isn't for stupid and ignorant people. It is for the people, who have an interest to search better ways to train their body and learn about their mistakes.  

no one

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2010, 11:00:42 AM »
everyone knows its you princess, i don't have to try.

no need to melt about it. just accept you look like shit and do something about it, like i am.

oh and you better right click and save my old pics slim, because i'll never be that fat again. Every month im getting slimmer. Sooner or later i'll be ripped - what will your excuse be then ?

p.s. your frog like physique has nothing on me even in my current state.


yeah- ok! lol ahahahahahahahahahaha

look at you- you're truly fucked eh? you honestly think you look that good. you are STILL at least 25-30% body fat. you get that right?

you will never even come close to being resemblant of being remotely lean. even if you get down to say 15% (which is still fat for 'normal' people, for you it would be ripped) do you know how loose your skin will be, and how bad those stretch marks on your back fat and waist will look?

keep thinking your going to look like something out of mens fitness. it will never happen.

thanks for coming out.
b

Fatpanda

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2010, 09:24:20 AM »

yeah- ok! lol ahahahahahahahahahaha

look at you- you're truly fucked eh? you honestly think you look that good. you are STILL at least 25-30% body fat. you get that right?

you will never even come close to being resemblant of being remotely lean. even if you get down to say 15% (which is still fat for 'normal' people, for you it would be ripped) do you know how loose your skin will be, and how bad those stretch marks on your back fat and waist will look?

keep thinking your going to look like something out of mens fitness. it will never happen.

thanks for coming out.


keep clutching at those straws.

ur world is collapsing around you with every further pound i drop.
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Fallsview

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2010, 03:02:27 PM »
To be a protege of the Ray and Mike's, how much urine were you suppose to drink?

Straw Man

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2010, 07:14:12 PM »
by the way how did mentzer differ from dorian?

did dorian train under mentzer?
or?



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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2010, 07:19:45 PM »
::) no pump it is then.

nobody fucking believes it's him.

lesaucer

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2010, 08:03:04 PM »
fuck off punks. the pump IS NECESSARY!! LIVE FOR THE PUMP!!

Meso_z

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2010, 11:47:30 PM »
nobody fucking believes it's him.
only a retard like FATpanda would, hes living in la la land afterall.

Fatpanda

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2010, 05:08:43 AM »
nobody fucking believes it's him.

it is him.

obviously his butt buddies will pretend different.  ::)
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SilverSpoon

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Re: If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2010, 07:23:42 AM »
FP, way to ruin a thread.