for the guy who asked if insulin-resistance from GH-therapy is temporary

[Heavy_Hitter]

Palumbo says no one should use more than 2iu of GH. I'd like for him to show evidence that 2iu will cause pancreatitis, or even any dose of GH.

Palumbo is full of shit like usual.

Regarding your friend, would be interesting to know the full picture. Might be a very temporary condition, especially if he was on drugs at the time of the diagnosis.

 Yes, and Palumbo also said most pros don't use over 1500mgs of Test and those that do are idiots. Palumbo makes himself sound credible and honest by serving naive people with not half truths but 1/25th truths. Ronnie Coleman used megadoses to get to 300lbs ripped with his Great genetics! Palumbo is a runt of the litter compared to Ronnie and yet Palumbo allegedly got so big on 2ius and 1500mgs of test, lol!

[Fatpanda]

Broscience trumps studies apparently.

apparently 


regarding anything palumbo advises.

i think its wise to look at what he did to himself using this stuff - before insulin and gh guys looked incredible. without insulin and gh guys will look incredible.

why chance possible palumboism, pancreatitis and diabetes on a peptide that has no muscle growing properties that costs loads more than muscle producing steroids and rampantly faked also  all on the say so of a few pro bodybuilders that think its great

[dj181]

Well, there seems to be 2 HUGE keys with gh usage: 1. It's fat burning abiltity 2. Creating new muscle fibers. This second key is VERY, VERY HUGE

[flinstones1]

Palumbo says no one should use more than 2iu of GH. I'd like for him to show evidence that 2iu will cause pancreatitis, or even any dose of GH.

Palumbo is full of shit like usual.

Regarding your friend, would be interesting to know the full picture. Might be a very temporary condition, especially if he was on drugs at the time of the diagnosis.

all I know is he told me his fasting glucose was over 130 and said its from the gh. As far as I know he never used slin. He hasnt been off gh in over four years....Uses tons of orals also.
I was just suprised because you figure someone who eats decently,is lean and musular,lifestyle of a bodybuilder would never get it.  Maybe it is temporary. I just dont want to get myself in the same situation once I start gh I am very health oriented.

[pellius]

If by Type II diabetes you mean what is usually meant, i.e. insulin resistant cells then no, I don't see how extra insulin prevents this. Milos has talked about how high carb diets can kill your pancreas and that exogenous insulin can prevent it. Even if true, it's not Type II, but Type I diabetes if your pancreas "dies".

Taking GH leads to increased endogenous insulin levels. High doses can cause severely high blood glucose that your body can't handle on its own, and it would be in your best interest to use insulin in that case, since high blood sugar is extremely damaging to various tissues, such as your eyes, kidneys etc. But taking extra insulin does nothing for your actual insulin sensitivity. More insulin = less sensitivity in the long run. A bodybuilder on say 20iu of GH, 100iu of insulin, a bunch of stimulants and eating enormous amounts of food for years on end is probably not very insulin sensitive.  

You could of course look at it another way, and say one could become Type II while on GH without insulin, just based on the elevated BG (presumably temporary condition and probably not what you were talking about).

How does HGH lead to increase insulin levels?

[Van_Bilderass]

How does HGH lead to increase insulin levels?

I'm not sure as to the exact pathway(s) but it's a response to the increased blood glucose/reduced insulin sensitivity. Just like Type II diabetics have high insulin because normal insulin isn't doing the job.


There's a graph in this paper showing what happens to glucose, insulin etc with low dose GH therapy.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455

[gh15]

Well, there seems to be 2 HUGE keys with gh usage: 1. It's fat burning abiltity 2. Creating new muscle fibers. This second key is VERY, VERY HUGE

you got it my friend,,if everyone else got it ...they would be competing npc for pro card now ,,but the problem is the ron herises around that posion their head with junk and lies,,this is THE PROBLEM,,and you know why its that? because supp companie need making money and thats the only way to keep yougster interested in supplements

gh15 approved

[Secret Stack]

Never thought of it so directly...

Right there is good.

Why do you keep avoiding me gh15?

If im not mistaken, it was you that made the post about how you hold your size so well, hardly lose size and keep your 240lb etc? something along those lines of what was seen as self praise (post was quite abit back to go off searching for it). gh15 didnt like this and replied about how you are americano fat/big 240, not bodybuilder 240. And from what ive seen since then, that was his final post to you for self praise.

Just my observation. You can look back at your posts for this. kind of like you have been disowned from his pupil group yet still making his teeth grind by having that "Hormona,,, fella.. americano,,, approved." in your signiture.

[pellius]

I'm not sure as to the exact pathway(s) but it's a response to the increased blood glucose/reduced insulin sensitivity. Just like Type II diabetics have high insulin because normal insulin isn't doing the job.


There's a graph in this paper showing what happens to glucose, insulin etc with low dose GH therapy.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455

As I understand it, insulin and HGH are opposing hormones. Naturally, you can have one or the other with insulin taking priority. Meaning that if you eat high glycemic carbs it will always stimulate insulin production and suppress HGH, which is one of the reasons you shouldn't eat ice cream just before going to bed.

I had a test done on me when I first went to an endocrinologist for HRT. It was called something like and insulin hypoglycemic test. The test was to determine my insulin sensitivity. I had two nurses and one doctor in the room. They injected me with insulin in one vein in my right arm and when I would start to pass out they injected dextrose in the vein on my left arm. There was an inverse relationship between blood sugar, determined by insulin levels, and HGH production. When my blood sugar was low, HGH spiked. When they pumped dextrose in my blood stream HGH dropped.

Type 2 diabetes, a huge problem in Hawaii and ranked one of the highest in the nation, is caused when you constantly are producing insulin. That occurs when you are constantly eating and snacking on primarily carbohydrates which we do a lot of in America. We are always eating. Eventually, because you are always producing insulin, you start to develop a resistance to your own insulin and have to produce more and more to process a given gram of carbohydrate. Virtually everybody by the time they are forty have some form of insulin resistance compare to when they were in their teens. Not enough to be type 2 but resistance none the less. In the case of my aunt, she was so insulin resistant that her pancreas had to work far beyond normal and eventually "burned itself out." It went kaput and then she became a type 1 diabetic and had to take insulin shots throughout the day and with every meal.

There are some who advocate taking low dose short acting insulin prior to every meal to give your pancreas a break. I guess that sounds good but it also sounds like quite a hassle.

What I don't understand is how HGH causes insulin resistance. HGH will not suppress insulin but insulin will suppress HGH. If immediately after a high intensity workout, which studies have shown stimulate HGH production, you have a high carb drink it will suppress the HGH you stimulated. It is better to stretch out after a workout for about 20-30 minutes before eating anything. That way you keep your blood sugar low and conducive to a GH producing environment.
 

[Van_Bilderass]

I had a test done on me when I first went to an endocrinologist for HRT. It was called something like and insulin hypoglycemic test. The test was to determine my insulin sensitivity.

I'm pretty sure they were testing whether you were producing GH normally. GH is released in a pulsatile manner and testing for GH without this insulin provocation method will not tell how much you're producing overall. Alternately you can test for IGF-1 which is more stable in the blood and a good indicator of normal GH production.

Insulin sensitivity would be tested for via glucose challenge for example (you drink 75g of dextrose and test BG at intervals).

Type 2 diabetes, a huge problem in Hawaii and ranked one of the highest in the nation, is caused when you constantly are producing insulin. That occurs when you are constantly eating and snacking on primarily carbohydrates which we do a lot of in America. We are always eating. Eventually, because you are always producing insulin, you start to develop a resistance to your own insulin and have to produce more and more to process a given gram of carbohydrate.
 

You are always producing some insulin, high carb diet or not. Insulin resistance from bad diet is mostly due to eating too much period, not just due to the evil carbohydrate or sugar. Research shows high fat to carb ratio in the diet can also induce insulin resistance. Excessive protein the same.

People are obese = people are insulin resistant.  

What I don't understand is how HGH causes insulin resistance. HGH will not suppress insulin but insulin will suppress HGH. If immediately after a high intensity workout, which studies have shown stimulate HGH production, you have a high carb drink it will suppress the HGH you stimulated. It is better to stretch out after a workout for about 20-30 minutes before eating anything. That way you keep your blood sugar low and conducive to a GH producing environment.
 

HGH cause increased fatty acid oxidization, which in turn reduces glucose oxidization. There is then a buildup up of glucose and this causes the resistance through pathways I don't remember.

Trying to affect muscle growth through nutrient timing (via hormonal effects) is pretty useless. There's a bunch of things you can do to raise GH but none of it will do jack as far as muscle growth. I remember when Larry Scott said to sit in a sauna between sets without drinking water to boost GH. Completely useless. Transient peaks will do nothing, especially when the GH boosting methods are catabolic in themselves, such as fasting. To really get the benefits of GH you need the synthetic one. 

[lesaucer]

As I understand it, insulin and HGH are opposing hormones. Naturally, you can have one or the other with insulin taking priority. Meaning that if you eat high glycemic carbs it will always stimulate insulin production and suppress HGH, which is one of the reasons you shouldn't eat ice cream just before going to bed.

I had a test done on me when I first went to an endocrinologist for HRT. It was called something like and insulin hypoglycemic test. The test was to determine my insulin sensitivity. I had two nurses and one doctor in the room. They injected me with insulin in one vein in my right arm and when I would start to pass out they injected dextrose in the vein on my left arm. There was an inverse relationship between blood sugar, determined by insulin levels, and HGH production. When my blood sugar was low, HGH spiked. When they pumped dextrose in my blood stream HGH dropped.

Type 2 diabetes, a huge problem in Hawaii and ranked one of the highest in the nation, is caused when you constantly are producing insulin. That occurs when you are constantly eating and snacking on primarily carbohydrates which we do a lot of in America. We are always eating. Eventually, because you are always producing insulin, you start to develop a resistance to your own insulin and have to produce more and more to process a given gram of carbohydrate. Virtually everybody by the time they are forty have some form of insulin resistance compare to when they were in their teens. Not enough to be type 2 but resistance none the less. In the case of my aunt, she was so insulin resistant that her pancreas had to work far beyond normal and eventually "burned itself out." It went kaput and then she became a type 1 diabetic and had to take insulin shots throughout the day and with every meal.

There are some who advocate taking low dose short acting insulin prior to every meal to give your pancreas a break. I guess that sounds good but it also sounds like quite a hassle.

What I don't understand is how HGH causes insulin resistance. HGH will not suppress insulin but insulin will suppress HGH. If immediately after a high intensity workout, which studies have shown stimulate HGH production, you have a high carb drink it will suppress the HGH you stimulated. It is better to stretch out after a workout for about 20-30 minutes before eating anything. That way you keep your blood sugar low and conducive to a GH producing environment.
 

I heard about this a little while ago, no insulin=hgh production. ever since I never get snacks between meals, I eat 4 meals max everyday, 3 on non training day. but still calculate calories so i get enough to grow.. also I always get minimum 10 hours straight eating nothing, so i dont eat for 2-3 hours before going to bed. believe me or not I got so much leaner from this than when i used to eat 5-6 meals+eating before bed.. of course for people taking gh, things are completely different.. my 2 cents

[pellius]

I'm pretty sure they were testing whether you were producing GH normally. GH is released in a pulsatile manner and testing for GH without this insulin provocation method will not tell how much you're producing overall. Alternately you can test for IGF-1 which is more stable in the blood and a good indicator of normal GH production.

Insulin sensitivity would be tested for via glucose challenge for example (you drink 75g of dextrose and test BG at intervals).

You are always producing some insulin, high carb diet or not. Insulin resistance from bad diet is mostly due to eating too much period, not just due to the evil carbohydrate or sugar. Research shows high fat to carb ratio in the diet can also induce insulin resistance. Excessive protein the same.

People are obese = people are insulin resistant.  


HGH cause increased fatty acid oxidization, which in turn reduces glucose oxidization. There is then a buildup up of glucose and this causes the resistance through pathways I don't remember.

Trying to affect muscle growth through nutrient timing (via hormonal effects) is pretty useless. There's a bunch of things you can do to raise GH but none of it will do jack as far as muscle growth. I remember when Larry Scott said to sit in a sauna between sets without drinking water to boost GH. Completely useless. Transient peaks will do nothing, especially when the GH boosting methods are catabolic in themselves, such as fasting. To really get the benefits of GH you need the synthetic one. 

The test was for insulin sensitivity. That much was made clear. In fact, at the time I didn't know jack and felt like such a pussy because as soon as they injected the insulin I started blacking out. I remember the nurses were talking and heard one of them say, "He's passing out. Inject the dextrose." I went under faster than they thought as they mentioned afterwards. They told me it varies considerably from person to person and they've had cases where they've injected the same amount of insulin in another person and it had virtually no effect. I remember feeling dejected and told them I thought I was a bit tougher than that. They just laughed and said it was good thing. Just then my doctor walked in with the print out which was being typed out in another room and said that it was just as he expected. I was very insulin sensitive because I was a competitive athlete at the time. He explained why being insulin sensitive was a good thing and that exercise and vigorous physical activity contributes to that.

And, yes, you are always  producing insulin but like everything in life it's a matter of degrees. Some are producing more than others and a lot of that has to do with how much you eat and what you eat. If you are eating jelly beans all day as oppose to broccoli sticks even if the caloric value is the same it will make a difference hormonally. My aunt, who eventually developed type 2 and later type 1 diabetes was far from obese. She wasn't a stick figure but she certainly wasn't fat at any time in her life despite eating constantly. Always potato chips, cookies and mochi (a rubbery, sweet type of rice cake).

I don't know how much nutrient  timing effects muscle growth but assuming HGH is good for health and anti-aging nutrient timing does matter. If you are drinking a sugary type drink while doing high intensity exercise it will blunt HGH production. If you eat a high glycemic meal prior to sleep it will blunt HGH production. I'm fifty now and have never used HGH.  But when I compare myself to my brothers, who don't exercise at all we don't even look like were related anymore. I have four brothers and with one exception they all started going gray in their thirties and all are over weight. I have just a tasteful grey frosting that doesn't even show up in pics and keep myself fashionably twinkish. Same genetic back ground but vastly different life styles.

I remember watching a show on aging sometime last year and one of the definitions of aging that they used was your body losing the ability to repair itself. They attributed this process to a large part on HGH production. When you are young you in a sense "over repair" and grow. Then  it tapers off and as you grow older and your HGH production is really low your body just starts breaking down. It can no longer keep up with the day to day regeneration process. Eventually you wear out and die.

Here I am on the far left. The  person on the far right is my younger brother by three years.

[pellius]

Also with my cousin who is 7 years younger than I am taken during the Penn/Sanchez fight. When we were kids we looked the most alike at our respective ages. Meaning, when he was 12 he looked practically like my twin when I was 12. BTW, I only wear that shirt for Penn fights and never in public. Unless it's with a TapOut beanie and Vale Tudo shorts.

[Meso_z]

I heard about this a little while ago, no insulin=hgh production. ever since I never get snacks between meals, I eat 4 meals max everyday, 3 on non training day. but still calculate calories so i get enough to grow.. also I always get minimum 10 hours straight eating nothing, so i dont eat for 2-3 hours before going to bed. believe me or not I got so much leaner from this than when i used to eat 5-6 meals+eating before bed.. of course for people taking gh, things are completely different.. my 2 cents

I do the same, I always wait as long as i can after a meal, before going to bed.

[pellius]

I do the same, I always wait as long as i can after a meal, before going to bed.

You know, I eat 4 meals a day. The typical breakfast, lunch and dinner and then I always eat right before I hit the sack. I usually eat at around 11:00 PM and get to sleep at around 1:00-1:30 am. If I don't then I lose around5-8 pounds over night. But my last meal is just protein and fat. No or very little carbs. It can vary from a protein drink, fried chicken or tonight where I microwaved some egg whites with turkey meatballs and some spaghetti sauce.

BTW, since my cousin and I were so similar growing up. Same build nearly the same height. I think that if I quit training and HRT all together I would pretty much have the build he has now. He's 6 feet and about 165 pounds. Since I'm about an inch taller, using gh15's 7 pound per inch rule, that would put me at a bit over 170 lbs. I hover around 185 lbs. Kind of depressing to think that for someone who has been training consistently for 38 years, longer than Jay Cutler has been alive, that I've only managed to put on 15 pounds of muscle on my frame. LOL. But in life your choices are rarely between good or bad but rather between bad or worse. Fifteen pounds is fifteen pounds. I wish I knew more about testosterona and HGH and the whole mutation process when it mattered.

[xboxaddict]

Also with my cousin who is 7 years younger than I am taken during the Penn/Sanchez fight. When we were kids we looked the most alike at our respective ages. Meaning, when he was 12 he looked practically like my twin when I was 12. BTW, I only wear that shirt for Penn fights and never in public. Unless it's with a TapOut beanie and Vale Tudo shorts.

looking good, pellius (no homo).

[dj181]

Hey pellius, You train with the old HIT circuit style right? If you really want to get bigger muscles I have a few ideas for you, so if you're interested just say so.

[Meso_z]

Hey pellius, You train with the old HIT circuit style right? If you really want to get bigger muscles I have a few ideas for you, so if you're interested just say so.

He said that he traines "milos style" i would call it, where he moves around after a set just to keep his heart rate high so he would benefit from some aerobic action as well.

[dj181]

When this milos style does one train til failure on the work sets?

[Meso_z]

When this milos style does one train til failure on the work sets?

milos does giant sets....search it on youtube...i think its not to failure..

[no one]

apparently 


regarding anything palumbo advises.

i think its wise to look at what he did to himself using this stuff - before insulin and gh guys looked incredible. without insulin and gh guys will look incredible.

why chance possible palumboism, pancreatitis and diabetes on a peptide that has no muscle growing properties that costs loads more than muscle producing steroids and rampantly faked also  all on the say so of a few pro bodybuilders that think its great

yes, please do that the next time you think anyone will care what your opinion is.

[flinstones1]

The test was for insulin sensitivity. That much was made clear. In fact, at the time I didn't know jack and felt like such a pussy because as soon as they injected the insulin I started blacking out. I remember the nurses were talking and heard one of them say, "He's passing out. Inject the dextrose." I went under faster than they thought as they mentioned afterwards. They told me it varies considerably from person to person and they've had cases where they've injected the same amount of insulin in another person and it had virtually no effect. I remember feeling dejected and told them I thought I was a bit tougher than that. They just laughed and said it was good thing. Just then my doctor walked in with the print out which was being typed out in another room and said that it was just as he expected. I was very insulin sensitive because I was a competitive athlete at the time. He explained why being insulin sensitive was a good thing and that exercise and vigorous physical activity contributes to that.

And, yes, you are always  producing insulin but like everything in life it's a matter of degrees. Some are producing more than others and a lot of that has to do with how much you eat and what you eat. If you are eating jelly beans all day as oppose to broccoli sticks even if the caloric value is the same it will make a difference hormonally. My aunt, who eventually developed type 2 and later type 1 diabetes was far from obese. She wasn't a stick figure but she certainly wasn't fat at any time in her life despite eating constantly. Always potato chips, cookies and mochi (a rubbery, sweet type of rice cake).

I don't know how much nutrient  timing effects muscle growth but assuming HGH is good for health and anti-aging nutrient timing does matter. If you are drinking a sugary type drink while doing high intensity exercise it will blunt HGH production. If you eat a high glycemic meal prior to sleep it will blunt HGH production. I'm fifty now and have never used HGH.  But when I compare myself to my brothers, who don't exercise at all we don't even look like were related anymore. I have four brothers and with one exception they all started going gray in their thirties and all are over weight. I have just a tasteful grey frosting that doesn't even show up in pics and keep myself fashionably twinkish. Same genetic back ground but vastly different life styles.

I remember watching a show on aging sometime last year and one of the definitions of aging that they used was your body losing the ability to repair itself. They attributed this process to a large part on HGH production. When you are young you in a sense "over repair" and grow. Then  it tapers off and as you grow older and your HGH production is really low your body just starts breaking down. It can no longer keep up with the day to day regeneration process. Eventually you wear out and die.

Here I am on the far left. The  person on the far right is my younger brother by three years.

Excercise and loosing weight will reverse insulin resistance in anyone overnight. Keeping carb below a certain amount will not. Insulin sensitivity decreases with age though so that is impressive you are still sensitive. Fish oils improe insulin sensitivity as well What did your diet consit of all these years Pellius? Do you ever eat sweets like cake and icecream? You  look great for your age bro

[Van_Bilderass]

The test was for insulin sensitivity. That much was made clear.

Not to be argumentative, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_sensitivity#Diagnosis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_tolerance_test

Regarding development of adult onset diabetes, I remember that it depends on "race", how much weight you can gain before going resistant. For example, IIRC, Euros can gain an enormous amount of fat whereas some South Americans can only put on a couple of pounds before developing diabetes.

I doubt nutrient timing affects total GH production throughout the day. You can get a transient elevation but there's homeostasis - it's not like you can get a zero GH by eating carbs every meal vs. having high total GH production by cutting out all carbs, or cutting them at night or pre/post workout. There are checks and balances. GH isn't released just at night and workout times, it's released in a pulsatile manner throughout the day.

BTW, did you know steroids increase GH levels? You being on Test means you have higher GH than you would otherwise.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17550998
http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/4/577
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/3/1613

[225for70]

yes, please do that the next time you think anyone will care what your opinion is.

Christ

That's a mutation that wet all wrong

[pellius]

Hey pellius, You train with the old HIT circuit style right? If you really want to get bigger muscles I have a few ideas for you, so if you're interested just say so.

Please share any ideas you have. We're all here to learn (except for the schmoes -- lol) I'm always open to new training ideas.

I still follow the basic principles that I learned in my early twenties reading Jones and later Mentzer. Currently train 3x/wk (pushing movements, pulling movements, legs) though I only trained 2x/wk (upper/lower) during my Jiu-Jitsu/MMA days. Pretty much always use some kind of intensity variables (forced reps, drop sets, pre-exhaust rest pause, burns...) and moving from one set to another without rest except when doing leg pressing movements (squats, hacks, leg press) but even then walking back and forth until I get my breath. No sitting around txt messaging, BSing or watching TV. As Jones said, train the muscles anaerobically and the body aerobically.

Pics taken just before 50th bday.