Biden Says Gay Marriage 'Inevitable'

[240 is Back]

watch - obama's biggest legacy won't be obamacare or finreg....

it will be federal legalization of gay marriage.  he didn't want that to be the story today.

[Soul Crusher]

Saw the presser on the plane.  Obama is such a fag and a pofs. 

Refuses to take a position as always.

[Primemuscle]

Not unless it's in one of those six states that allows gay "marriage".

Looks like it is six states now and counting.

[tonymctones]

I presume you mean marry a man and a woman at the same time. Of course that would be polygamy, which I believe is still illegal in this country. If you meant that a bisexual person could marry a person of the same sex and later marry someone of the opposite sex if they first divorced or otherwise lost their first partner in death, the I say so what? I am bisexual. I have been married to the same woman for a very long time. We're not getting divorced anytime in the near future. But if I was a widower and I met a man who I loved, why shouldn't we get married if that's what we wanted to do?

LOL do you not understand that by the reasoning gays are using to fight for gay marriage you would be discriminating against bi sexuals wanting to marry one of each sex?

[Primemuscle]

LOL do you not understand that by the reasoning gays are using to fight for gay marriage you would be discriminating against bi sexuals wanting to marry one of each sex?

I am not sure I understand what you are asking here. So if I seem to miss your point, my bad.

As far as I can determine, gay folks are simply asking to have the same rights, advantages and protections offered straight folks though marriage. Obviously, there are also some disadvantages with legalized marriage....namely the complications and financial issues involved in ending a marriage through divorce. Polygamy is another issue altogether. If a bisexual wanted to marry both a man and a woman at the same time, that would still be polygamy in my opinion. Not that I have a problem with polygamy. If that's what folks want, so be it. Personally, one spouse at a time seems like enough of a problem for most people to manage successfully considering the high rate of divorce.

I consider myself bisexual. I am married to a woman. Although I find both men and women sexually attractive, I have no desire to marry a man or, for that matter, another woman while committed to my present wife. One spouse at a time is fine for me. Marriage is complicated enough.

[tonymctones]

I am not sure I understand what you are asking here. So if I seem to miss your point, my bad.

As far as I can determine, gay folks are simply asking to have the same rights, advantages and protections offered straight folks though marriage. Obviously, there are also some disadvantages with legalized marriage....namely the complications and financial issues involved in ending a marriage through divorce. Polygamy is another issue altogether. If a bisexual wanted to marry both a man and a woman at the same time, that would still be polygamy in my opinion. Not that I have a problem with polygamy. If that's what folks want, so be it. Personally, one spouse at a time seems like enough of a problem for most people to manage successfully considering the high rate of divorce.

I consider myself bisexual. I am married to a woman. Although I find both men and women sexually attractive, I have no desire to marry a man or, for that matter, another woman while committed to my present wife. One spouse at a time is fine for me. Marriage is complicated enough.

gays are arguing on the basis that homosexuality is innate so therefor it is out of their control and that is why it should be legal.

how is being bi sexual any different on that basis?

[Primemuscle]

gays are arguing on the basis that homosexuality is innate so therefor it is out of their control and that is why it should be legal.

how is being bi sexual any different on that basis?

On that basis,if one accepts this yet scientifically unproven point, it makes no difference. Personally, I believe if gay folks are arguing that they should have the right to marry based on what may or may not have made them gay or bisexual, they are choosing the wrong point to support their right to marry.

Whether gay marriage is blessed in the eyes of God is dependent on various religious doctrines. However we are hopefully discussing civil marriages which are nothing more than legal contracts which come with some very practical privileges, such as tax advantages and inheritance rights, as well as legal problems should one divorce. I suspect many folks are confusing the two.

[tonymctones]

On that basis,if one accepts this yet scientifically unproven point, it makes no difference. Personally, I believe if gay folks are arguing that they should have the right to marry based on what may or may not have made them gay or bisexual, they are choosing the wrong point to support their right to marry.

Whether gay marriage is blessed in the eyes of God is dependent on various religious doctrines. However we are hopefully discussing civil marriages which are nothing more than legal contracts which come with some very practical privileges, such as tax advantages and inheritance rights, as well as legal problems should one divorce. I suspect many folks are confusing the two.

LOL first of all, then why do you think gays are arguing that they have a right to marry?

second what do you do with common law marriage if two ppl of the same sex live together for a number of years. Are they married by common law if one of them says they were in a relationship?

[MCWAY]

Looks like it is six states now and counting.

It depends. Look at the pattern. Gay "marriage" gets legalized in non-referendum states with left-leaning courts and/or left-winged governors, senators, and assemblymen. Most of the states in the northeast are like that.

As long as the people can vote directly on the issue (should they disagree with their elected officials), gay "marriage" gets legalized.

But, once the people can actually vote on it, that's a whole different story. 31-0, at last count.

[Primemuscle]

LOL first of all, then why do you think gays are arguing that they have a right to marry?

I imagine the arguments are as diverse as the folks making them. Some gay folks no doubt have valid arguments for gay marriage while others not so much. All gay folks (gays) do not think or act alike.

second what do you do with common law marriage if two ppl of the same sex live together for a number of years. Are they married by common law if one of them says they were in a relationship?

It could be if the state you live in recognizes common law marriages, including common law marriage between two people of the same sex. Otherwise, I would suspect their relationship would not be legally recognized. Surely, someone will test this idea at some point.

THE MYTH: There is a common misperception that if you live together for a certain length of time (seven years is what many people believe), you are common-law married. This is not true anywhere in the United States.
 
STATES THAT RECOGNIZE COMMON LAW MARRIAGE:
Only a few states recognize common law marriages:

Alabama
 Colorado
 Georgia (if created before 1/1/97)
 Idaho (if created before 1/1/96)
 Iowa
 Kansas
 Montana
 New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only)
 Ohio (if created before 10/10/91)
 Oklahoma (possibly only if created before 11/1/98. Oklahoma's laws and court decisions may be in conflict about whether common law marriages formed in that state after 11/1/98 will be recognized.)
 Pennsylvania (if created before 1/1/05)
 Rhode Island
 South Carolina
 Texas
 Utah
 Washington, D.C.

[tonymctones]

I imagine the arguments are as diverse as the folks making them. Some gay folks no doubt have valid arguments for gay marriage while others not so much. All gay folks (gays) do not think or act alike.

It could be if the state you live in recognizes common law marriages, including common law marriage between two people of the same sex. Otherwise, I would suspect their relationship would not be legally recognized. Surely, someone will test this idea at some point.

THE MYTH: There is a common misperception that if you live together for a certain length of time (seven years is what many people believe), you are common-law married. This is not true anywhere in the United States.
 
STATES THAT RECOGNIZE COMMON LAW MARRIAGE:
Only a few states recognize common law marriages:

Alabama
 Colorado
 Georgia (if created before 1/1/97)
 Idaho (if created before 1/1/96)
 Iowa
 Kansas
 Montana
 New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only)
 Ohio (if created before 10/10/91)
 Oklahoma (possibly only if created before 11/1/98. Oklahoma's laws and court decisions may be in conflict about whether common law marriages formed in that state after 11/1/98 will be recognized.)
 Pennsylvania (if created before 1/1/05)
 Rhode Island
 South Carolina
 Texas
 Utah
 Washington, D.C.

and what valid reasons have you heard prime?

I agree it certainly will get tested at some point b/c someone will put it to the test. Where did I ever say in any state?

fact is it is an issue that will have to be dealt with.

[Primemuscle]

and what valid reasons have you heard prime?

I agree it certainly will get tested at some point b/c someone will put it to the test. Where did I ever say in any state?

fact is it is an issue that will have to be dealt with.

Truthfully, I haven't paid a lot of attention to this matter. I can only guess that the reasons gay folks want to get married are the same as those for straight people. If you are married, you already know what some of the advantages legalizing a relationship through marriage. If you aren't, in general they range from the financial stuff to the right to see your loved one if they were at the hospital in intensive care to inheritance issues should that loved one die....and then there's always the fact that you love one another and just want to get married.

Some people object to gay folks getting married for religious reasons and because they believe they have the right to impose their morals on others. This is why it is important to remember that we are talking about a legal contract and not church weddings here. If folks object to gay people getting married in the Catholic or Episcopal church, for example, they should take that up with their church.

Who do you believe has the right to decide whether gay folks should be allowed to marry? We live in a democracy, if the question is put to a vote and the majority of folks vote to approve gay marriage, would you be o.k. with that?

My cousin and his partner have been married for several years now. The have lived together longer than most straight marriages last. Personally, I think it is great that they were able to get married.

[tonymctones]

Truthfully, I haven't paid a lot of attention to this matter. I can only guess that the reasons gay folks want to get married are the same as those for straight people. If you are married, you already know what some of the advantages legalizing a relationship through marriage. If you aren't, in general they range from the financial stuff to the right to see your loved one if they were at the hospital in intensive care to inheritance issues should that loved one die....and then there's always the fact that you love one another and just want to get married.

Some people object to gay folks getting married for religious reasons and because they believe they have the right to impose their morals on others. This is why it is important to remember that we are talking about a legal contract and not church weddings here. If folks object to gay people getting married in the Catholic or Episcopal church, for example, they should take that up with their church.

Who do you believe has the right to decide whether gay folks should be allowed to marry? We live in a democracy, if the question is put to a vote and the majority of folks vote to approve gay marriage, would you be o.k. with that?

My cousin and his partner have been married for several years now. The have lived together longer than most straight marriages last. Personally, I think it is great that they were able to get married.

well first of all they have the rights you feel they lack just not with someone of the same sex. I dont have those rights either.

SO ILL ASK YOU AGAIN...what valid reasons do you think there are for legalizing gay marriage?

thats fine, but the simple fact of the matter is we cant always go with public opinion. Are you ok with doing away with abortion? b/c sooner or later public opinion will be against that...

Im fine with leaving up to the states.

[chadstallion]

gays are arguing on the basis that homosexuality is innate so therefor it is out of their control and that is why it should be legal.

how is being bi sexual any different on that basis?

it's not.
a bi guy can marry either a woman or a man.
marriage=two people.
basic.

[MCWAY]

it's not.
a bi guy can marry either a woman or a man.
marriage=two people.
basic.

Tell that to polygamists, particulary those of the Muslim variety.

[Primemuscle]

well first of all they have the rights you feel they lack just not with someone of the same sex. I dont have those rights either.

SO ILL ASK YOU AGAIN...what valid reasons do you think there are for legalizing gay marriage?

thats fine, but the simple fact of the matter is we cant always go with public opinion. Are you ok with doing away with abortion? b/c sooner or later public opinion will be against that...

Im fine with leaving up to the states.

I too am fine with gay marriage being left up to each state as long as gay folks can file joint tax returns just as do straight couples. I am not OK with ending a woman's right to have an abortion. In a democracy the public has the ability to express their opinion at the poles. While I may not always agree with how folks vote, I do not know of a better system. Unfortunately, the media often manipulates "public opinion". I am not convinced that what we hear and see through the media always accurately reflects public opinion.

When you say that gay folks have all the rights straight folks have, this is a matter of opinion. If you are straight, you are usually attracted to people of the opposite sex. This sometimes leads to love and eventually to a civil marriage. If you are a gay person, you are usually attracted to people of the same sex. This sometimes leads to love and eventually a relationship. Whether or not it leads to a civil marriage depends on where you live. Whether gay folks should marry on a moral basis is a different issue.

To my mind, all civil marriages should not be thought of as marriages but rather legal contracts/agreements between two committed people. My wife is Catholic and I am not. When we wanted to get married in the church, we were refused because I would not convert to Catholicism. If we had married in a different church, we would never have been able to have a Catholic wedding. How did we get around this? We were married by a Justice of the Peace, i.e. a civil ceremony which the Catholic church does not consider a marriage. A year later, we got married in the Catholic church. BTW, I still did not convert.

[Primemuscle]

Tell that to polygamists, particulary those of the Muslim variety.

Do people of the Muslim/Islam faith accept homosexuality? I could be wrong about this, but I think it would be impossible for a Muslim to marry someone of the same sex and still be a Muslim. I don't see Muslim people marrying both men and women since it is still considered a sin in their faith for a man to lie with another man.

[tonymctones]

I too am fine with gay marriage being left up to each state as long as gay folks can file joint tax returns just as do straight couples. I am not OK with ending a woman's right to have an abortion. In a democracy the public has the ability to express their opinion at the poles. While I may not always agree with how folks vote, I do not know of a better system. Unfortunately, the media often manipulates "public opinion". I am not convinced that what we hear and see through the media always accurately reflects public opinion.

When you say that gay folks have all the rights straight folks have, this is a matter of opinion. If you are straight, you are usually attracted to people of the opposite sex. This sometimes leads to love and eventually to a civil marriage. If you are a gay person, you are usually attracted to people of the same sex. This sometimes leads to love and eventually a relationship. Whether or not it leads to a civil marriage depends on where you live. Whether gay folks should marry on a moral basis is a different issue.

To my mind, all civil marriages should not be thought of as marriages but rather legal contracts/agreements between two committed people. My wife is Catholic and I am not. When we wanted to get married in the church, we were refused because I would not convert to Catholicism. If we had married in a different church, we would never have been able to have a Catholic wedding. How did we get around this? We were married by a Justice of the Peace, i.e. a civil ceremony which the Catholic church does not consider a marriage. A year later, we got married in the Catholic church. BTW, I still did not convert.

first of all prime you still havent given one reason why gays should be allowed to marry...

So youre ok with ppl deciding on gay rights but not womens rights? whys that?

I agree I think everyone should just be given civil unions by the govt and leave marriage to the private sector.

[chadstallion]

I agree I think everyone should just be given civil unions by the govt and leave marriage to the private sector.

BINGO !
no more calls, we have a winner.
I knew, after all these years, we could agree on something other than "the sun rises in the east"
whew; like pullin' teeth....

[Primemuscle]

first of all prime you still havent given one reason why gays should be allowed to marry...

I thought I did. IMO,  the reasons gay folks should be afforded the right to marry in a civil ceremony are the same as those for straight folks. It is as simple as that.

So youre ok with ppl deciding on gay rights but not womens rights? whys that?

What I am OK with is the democratic process whereby the public votes on these issues. I don't always agree with the outcome of a vote. If I were a dictator, I would impose a law that allowed folks to marry in civil unions regardless of whether it was a gay union or a straight one. I would also disallow any law that took away a women's right to have an abortion should they choose to do so.
 

I agree I think everyone should just be given civil unions by the govt and leave marriage to the private sector.

See, people do sometimes agree on some issues. That is encouraging!

[tonymctones]

I thought I did. IMO,  the reasons gay folks should be afforded the right to marry in a civil ceremony are the same as those for straight folks. It is as simple as that.
 

What I am OK with is the democratic process whereby the public votes on these issues. I don't always agree with the outcome of a vote. If I were a dictator, I would impose a law that allowed folks to marry in civil unions regardless of whether it was a gay union or a straight one. I would also disallow any law that took away a women's right to have an abortion should they choose to do so.
 
See, people do sometimes agree on some issues. That is encouraging!

so then you must also feel the same about bi sexuals being able to marry one of each sex then?

if not then please tell me why you feel its different...

lol you said you were ok with ppl voting for gay marriage but would not be ok with taking away a womens right to choose....

so are you ok with ppl voting on taking away a womens right to choose or no?

you cant have your cake and eat it too.

[Primemuscle]

so then you must also feel the same about bi sexuals being able to marry one of each sex then?

if not then please tell me why you feel its different...

lol you said you were ok with ppl voting for gay marriage but would not be ok with taking away a womens right to choose....

so are you ok with ppl voting on taking away a womens right to choose or no?

you cant have your cake and eat it too.

Conversations with you always become cyclical. I think I expressed my views very clearly in the reply you are quoting here. I answered you regarding bisexuals and marriage several posts back. Perhaps you should try reading what I wrote again. The other possibility is that you are one of those people who believes if you keep asking the same question, regardless that it it has been answered already, the answer will change. Trust me, I am not going to change my answer. I was clear and concise. If you can't understand what I said, that is your loss.

[tonymctones]

Conversations with you always become cyclical. I think I expressed my views very clearly in the reply you are quoting here. I answered you regarding bisexuals and marriage several posts back. Perhaps you should try reading what I wrote again. The other possibility is that you are one of those people who believes if you keep asking the same question, regardless that it it has been answered already, the answer will change. Trust me, I am not going to change my answer. I was clear and concise. If you can't understand what I said, that is your loss.

the reason it circles back is b/c you arent consistant in your views...

and I want to make sure you know it and see the hypocrisey....

[Primemuscle]

the reason it circles back is b/c you arent consistant in your views...

and I want to make sure you know it and see the hypocrisey....

My views are consistant. Perhaps I just don't express myself clearly enough or you read things into what I say that aren't there. Am I ever a hypocrite? Probably. But my core views remain the same.

There is an article in today's Oregonian about gay marriage.  It seems there is a groundswell of folks who are completely against gay marriage and they are speaking up in retalliation to New York's recent decision about gay marriage. My gut reaction is why do they care so much? What difference does it make to anyone if gays get married? It seems like many people are way too concerned with the affairs of other people even when it doesn't affect them at all.

I am going to try and be very clear and consise with you here:

1. I do not oppose gay marriage.

2. I support a woman's right to an abortion.

3. I believe in a "live and let live" policy.

4. While not perfect, democracy is better than other types of government.

[chadstallion]

My views are consistant. Perhaps I just don't express myself clearly enough or you read things into what I say that aren't there. Am I ever a hypocrite? Probably. But my core views remain the same.

There is an article in today's Oregonian about gay marriage.  It seems there is a groundswell of folks who are completely against gay marriage and they are speaking up in retalliation to New York's recent decision about gay marriage. My gut reaction is why do they care so much? What difference does it make to anyone if gays get married? It seems like many people are way too concerned with the affairs of other people even when it doesn't affect them at all.

I am going to try and be very clear and consise with you here:

1. I do not oppose to gay marriage.

2. I support a woman's right to an abortion.

3. I believe in a "live and let live" policy.

4. While not perfect, democracy is better than other types of government.

Prime; bless your heart, you are wasting time trying to have a serious conversation with tony.
He won't change his mind, so it's more fun to poke fun at his ideas.  He expects that.