Shawn or Bret?

[The Showstoppa]

I love when Vince used to always talk about the "time-honored traditions" of wrestling - especially back around the '97 SS.
Do you know how many traditions the old man broke?
 

I have always felt the VKM has a complex in that he enjoys what wrestling brings him (power, money, etc...) but just loathes the fans and industry as a whole.  Almost like he has some self-hatred issues.  I think its why he always tested exactly what he could say or get away with in the business.  In other words, no way in hell ole Vince would be promoting to 200 fans at the local Moose's Lodge in some small town simply for the love of the sport.....

[Playboy]

I want to see what happens when the old man retires and Stef and HHH take over....

Vinnie Mac is already in his mid sixties. He can't run the ship forever and do you really think that Triple H and Stephanie have the know-how and vision that Vince and his father had?

[The Showstoppa]

I want to see what happens when the old man retires and Stef and HHH take over....

Vinnie Mac is already in his mid sixties. He can't run the ship forever and do you really think that Triple H and Stephanie have the know-how and vision that Vince and his father had?

God, in Vince Jr's case, I sure hope not !!!!     Perhaps they could get it back to something i would want to watch on occasion....

[Playboy]

God, in Vince Jr's case, I sure hope not !!!!     Perhaps they could get it back to something i would want to watch on occasion....

I think you will see a ressurection of the territories again.

[The Showstoppa]

I think you will see a ressurection of the territories again.

PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 100000000000000000000000 0000


 

[Playboy]

PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 100000000000000000000000 0000


 

It'll happen. Sooner or later.

[Montague]

I think you will see a ressurection of the territories again.

I respectfully disagree.

[Playboy]

I don't think the WWE will buckle but I highly doubt that they will do the same business that they did when Vince Jr was running the ship.

According to the WWE creative team, Triple H as of right now is set to face the Undertaker at WM in a streak vs career match to "avenge" the retirement of his best friend HBK last year. I highly doubt that they will end the Undertaker's streak and Triple H was set to take on a backstage role in the company. Who knows though, maybe HBK will come in and interfere in the match as a one time thing. Anything can happen.

[The Showstoppa]

WWE will never be as big as it was...... complete death of kayfabe, rise of MMA, etc... have all hurt it.  Just like Heenan said on that interview, it will "never be the same."    And i think the internet has had a huge negative effect on it as well.  I can remember thinking it was SO cool in the mid 90's when i found on the "smart" websites, backstage stories, etc...  but in the long run, i think it will prove to be a huge factor in why it will never be the same.

[Playboy]

WWE will never be as big as it was...... complete death of kayfabe, rise of MMA, etc... have all hurt it.  Just like Heenan said on that interview, it will "never be the same."    And i think the internet has had a huge negative effect on it as well.  I can remember thinking it was SO cool in the mid 90's when i found on the "smart" websites, backstage stories, etc...  but in the long run, i think it will prove to be a huge factor in why it will never be the same.

The WWE has gotten smart by putting out fake stories and things on the net. For example, The Rock's comeback was kept such a secret that he was brought in the arena through the back door and hidding in a secluded area locker room all to himself until it was time to come out.

[The Showstoppa]

The WWE has gotten smart by putting out fake stories and things on the net. For example, The Rock's comeback was kept such a secret that he was brought in the arena through the back door and hidding in a secluded area locker room all to himself until it was time to come out.

Thats good and the only way they will be able to get any sort of excitement is doing things like that.

[Montague]

WWE will never be as big as it was...... complete death of kayfabe, rise of MMA, etc... have all hurt it.  Just like Heenan said on that interview, it will "never be the same."    And i think the internet has had a huge negative effect on it as well.  I can remember thinking it was SO cool in the mid 90's when i found on the "smart" websites, backstage stories, etc...  but in the long run, i think it will prove to be a huge factor in why it will never be the same.

And, that echoes my feelings about seeing territories start up again.

The original territories were built on kayfabe and other outdated premises.
A big reason those qualities became dated is that, when Vince modernized his product, he ultimately modernized the entire industry.

You can’t reverse evolution.

You can’t recreate kayfabe after you smarten up the public.
Also, nothing means the same as it did years ago.
The fans have evolved.
They’re more demanding - primarily because they’ve seen just about everything within the realm of human possibility.
The fact that fans are smart, as well as desensitized to almost everything now, makes it damn near impossible for anyone to get heat.

The qualities that made the old territories work are obsolete.

I find it believable that we’ll see some smaller outfits pop up - orgainizations that are some degree bigger than your typical indy promotion.
But, I don’t think these new-version “territories” will serve the same ends as their original incarnations, because the old recipe can never be used again.
 
The same things that took wrestling to its greatest heights also killed it.

[The Showstoppa]

And, that echoes my feelings about seeing territories start up again.

The original territories were built on kayfabe and other outdated premises.
A big reason those qualities became dated is that, when Vince modernized his product, he ultimately modernized the entire industry.

You can’t reverse evolution.

You can’t recreate kayfabe after you smarten up the public.
Also, nothing means the same as it did years ago.
The fans have evolved.
They’re more demanding - primarily because they’ve seen just about everything within the realm of human possibility.
The fact that fans are smart, as well as desensitized to almost everything now, makes it damn near impossible for anyone to get heat.

The qualities that made the old territories work are obsolete.

I find it believable that we’ll see some smaller outfits pop up - orgainizations that are some degree bigger than your typical indy promotion.
But, I don’t think these new-version “territories” will serve the same ends as their original incarnations, because the old recipe can never be used again.
 
The same things that took wrestling to its greatest heights also killed it.

Very well put.  I've never followed closely, but what is the industry like in Japan now?  They always took it so seriously, but now with kayfabe being destroyed, I wonder if they have changed as well?

[Montague]

Very well put.  I've never followed closely, but what is the industry like in Japan now?  They always took it so seriously, but now with kayfabe being destroyed, I wonder if they have changed as well?

Thanks.
Japan was always different.
I honestly don’t know what it’s like now, but 15-30 years ago, the fans didn’t care so much about heels and babyfaces; they cheered the action and performance.

I think the Japanese fans were serious in that they wanted a good, solid, realistic product.
If you did something hokey, they’d literally laugh at you.
Dynamite claims someone over there warned him not to do ball shots because they were obviously fake and the fans would fart on it.

Anyway, in regards to your question, I don’t know that kayfabe ever mattered all that much in Japan - at least, in the sense it did here.
They appreciated different aspects of the art, and I don’t know that the "end of kayfabe" has really diminished their perception of the show.

[tu_holmes]

HBK all the way.

[Montague]

In a new interview with The UK Sun, former WWE star Chris Jericho had the following to say concerning who he thinks is the best wrestler of all-time:


"The best way to put it is that Shawn IS the Hall of Fame.
There's nobody that has ever been in the business that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Shawn Michaels. That includes Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin or anybody else.

Shawn is the epitome of what the Hall of Fame is because to me he is the best performer of all time. He is not even close to anybody else.
You can debate it with me until the cows come home — you can say all you want. You can give me all the facts and figures, it's not going to change my mind.

I'm so excited that he is in the Hall of Fame, but it's essential that he be in there. If he wasn't it would be a waste of time."

[The Showstoppa]

In a new interview with The UK Sun, former WWE star Chris Jericho had the following to say concerning who he thinks is the best wrestler of all-time:


"The best way to put it is that Shawn IS the Hall of Fame.
There's nobody that has ever been in the business that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Shawn Michaels. That includes Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin or anybody else.

Shawn is the epitome of what the Hall of Fame is because to me he is the best performer of all time. He is not even close to anybody else.
You can debate it with me until the cows come home — you can say all you want. You can give me all the facts and figures, it's not going to change my mind.

I'm so excited that he is in the Hall of Fame, but it's essential that he be in there. If he wasn't it would be a waste of time."

I'm a big HBK (in ring and on the mic) fan.....but I wouldn't got that far.  As purely an in-ring performer, he probably is the best of all-time, but the HOF isn't just about that, IMO.

[Montague]

I'm a big HBK (in ring and on the mic) fan.....but I wouldn't got that far.  As purely an in-ring performer, he probably is the best of all-time, but the HOF isn't just about that, IMO.

Exactly!
The HOF is also about former baseball managers and guys who used to come to the ring with a parrot on their shoulders.


FTR - I should have added the disclaimer that the above views are solely Y2J's and do not neccessarily reflect aaaaaaaaaaaaaanybody's on this board.
But, I'm with you.
Shawn was good, but that praise goes a bit far for me.

I'd like to see Jericho in the HOF someday.
He was an excellent performer on all levels.