congresswoman/judge shot in Arizona

[Straw Man]

Yes, very good champ...I refer you to my previous posts, and the links i posted THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ!!! 

quoting yourself now

very good

just because you write some jibberish and then refer back to it doesn't make it true

I do not know what you mean when you write that a statement can be completely untrue and still be valid

can you clarify this for us professor?

yes I can you see in philosophy/LOGIC

a statement does not have to make sense to be valid...a statment can be completely untrue and still be valid but it would not be a sound argument if that was the case...

[tonymctones]

quoting yourself now

very good

just because you write some jibberish and then refer back to it doesn't make it true

I do not know what you mean when you write that a statement can be completely untrue and still be valid

can you clarify this for us professor?

hahahah I tell you what i prove that point with an outside source and you log off getbig for a month, deal?

[Straw Man]

hahahah I tell you what i prove that point with an outside source and you log off getbig for a month, deal?

nope - just prove it and let's see if it's even relevent to what you're talking about and see if it's actually relevent to what we're talking about.

you've claimed that Loughner's logic is "valid" becasue he used some format which you claim to recognize even though his if/then statement are meaningless

If the police remove you from the educational facility for talking then removing you from the educational facility for talking is unconstitutional in the United States.

you claim that statement is "valid"

Let see what you got

[tonymctones]

nope - just prove it and let's see if it's even relevent to what you're talking about and see if it's actually relevent to what we're talking about.

you've claimed that Loughner's logic is "valid" becasue he used some format which you claim to recognize even though his if/then statement are meaningless

you claim that statement is "valid"

Let see what you got

lol thought so you puss

from the same wikilink you OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ!!!!! lol

What makes this a valid argument is not that it has true premises and a true conclusion, but the logical necessity of the conclusion, given the two premises. The argument would be just as valid were the premises and conclusion false. The following argument is of the same logical form but with false premises and a false conclusion, and it is equally valid:

All cups are green.
Socrates is a cup.
Therefore, Socrates is green.

[Straw Man]

lol thought so you puss

from the same wikilink you OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ!!!!! lol

What makes this a valid argument is not that it has true premises and a true conclusion, but the logical necessity of the conclusion, given the two premises. The argument would be just as valid were the premises and conclusion false. The following argument is of the same logical form but with false premises and a false conclusion, and it is equally valid:

All cups are green.
Socrates is a cup.
Therefore, Socrates is green.

did you notice I said some form which you recognize

did you also notice that I told you previously this his format does not match the format in your examples:

yes but can you explain Loughner's statement which you posted

you seem to be suggesting that if he uses some format which you recognize (which does't actually match the format you used) that it doesn't matter that what he is actually saying is jibberish and that you still recognize as basic "logic"

[tonymctones]

did you notice I said some form which you recognize

did you also notice that I told you previously this his format does not match the format in your examples:

lol, is this better straw?

If NASA communication signals reaches mars then NASA communication signal from the mars rover.
The NASA communication signals reaches mars
Therefore, NASA communication signals from the mars rover.

If the pictures are from mars then the mars rover is on mars.
The Mars rover is not on mars.
Therefore, the pictures are not from mars.

NASA creates a remote control rover that is impossible to reach mars.
NASA fakes the situation they plan with the mars rover.
Therefore, NASA creates a remote control rover that’s impossible to reach mars and fakes the situation they plan with the mars rover.

NASA sends the the Mars Rover to mars with communication or NASA fakes the situation.
NASA didn’t send the Mars Rover to mars with communication.
Therefore, NASA fakes the situation.

If the mars rover lands on mars with communication then NASA sent the Mars Rover to mars.
The mars rover lands on mars with communication.
Therefore, NASA sent the mars rover to mars with communication.

If I'm not receiving the purchase from a payment then I'm a victim of fraud. I'm not receiving the purchase from a payment. Therefore, I'm a victim of fraud.

All purchases for an educational course in The United States as of now are unconstitutional in the United States of America because of Section 10 in the United States of America's Constitution. A student paying for a Pima Community College course is a purchase for an educational course in the United States as of now. Therefore, a student paying for a Pima Community College course is unconstitutional in the United States of America because of Section 10 in the United States of America's Constitution.

If you're receiving a grade from Pima Community College class then the grade you're receiving is unconstitutional because of the United States Bill of Rights. You're receiving a grade from Pima Community College class. Therefore, the grade you're receiving is unconstitutional because of the United States Bill of Rights. The grading you purchase from Pima Community College is unconstitutional at tuition.

The United States Department of Education is allowing unconstitutional education facility's to operate or the United States Department of Education is allowing free constitutional education facility's to operate. The United States Department of Education isn't allowing unconstitutional education facility's to operate. Thus, the United States Department of Education is allowing free constitutional education facility's to operate.

If the police remove you from the educational facility for talking then removing you from the educational facility for talking is unconstitutional in the United States. The police remove you from the educational facility for talking. Thus, removing you from the educational facility for talking is unconstitutional in the United States. This situation is fraud because the police are unconstitutional!

Every police officer in the United States as of now is unconstitutionally working. Pima Community College police are police in the United States. Therefore, Pima Community College police are unconstitutionally working. The police are unconstitutionally working!

All United States of America's college programs are unconstitutional colleges that's in accordance with the United States of America's Constitution. Pima Community College is a United States of America's college program. Hence, Pima Community College is an unconstitutional college that's in accordance with the United States of America's Constitution.

Every Pima Community College class is using free sources for education from the internet. Algebra is a Pima Community College class. Thus, Algebra is a free source for education from the internet. Every Pima Community College class is always a scam!

If you're literate in English grammar then you know English grammar. You don't know English grammar. Thus, you're not literate in English grammar. Most of the teachers and students at Pima Community College are illiterate.

If I'm thinking of adding the 1 new symbol and number to the current alphabet and number system then I'm thinking of creating 1 new symbol and number to the current alphabet and number system. I'm thinking of adding the 1 new symbol and number to the current alphabet and number system. Thus, I'm thinking of creating 1 new symbol and number to the current alphabet and number system. You control the grammar!

Don't be scared to know you can't find the location of a subject: Most students can't locate a subject! Most people know all the subjects are for mind control and brainwash! The students are unconstitutionally paying for free education! The students are attending a torture facility! You know the teachers are con artists?

You now know - every college's unconstitutional crime! You shouldn't pay unconstitutional money for free speech! Don't trust the current government, listener!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the more and more I read from him the more and more i get the feeling this was just a moron that thought he was unique and had a special insight to things who had an ax to grind

sorry straw its obvious he is trying to post in this basic logic/philosophy format

[Straw Man]

lol, is this better straw?

If NASA communication signals reaches mars then NASA communication signal from the mars rover.
The NASA communication signals reaches mars
Therefore, NASA communication signals from the mars rover.

If the pictures are from mars then the mars rover is on mars.
The Mars rover is not on mars.
Therefore, the pictures are not from mars.

NASA creates a remote control rover that is impossible to reach mars.
NASA fakes the situation they plan with the mars rover.
Therefore, NASA creates a remote control rover that’s impossible to reach mars and fakes the situation they plan with the mars rover.

NASA sends the the Mars Rover to mars with communication or NASA fakes the situation.
NASA didn’t send the Mars Rover to mars with communication.
Therefore, NASA fakes the situation.

If the mars rover lands on mars with communication then NASA sent the Mars Rover to mars.
The mars rover lands on mars with communication.
Therefore, NASA sent the mars rover to mars with communication.
sorry straw its obvious he is trying to post in this basic logic/philosophy format

these are better examples but not even all of these follow the format as shown in your exampele (see below).  I  can see how you can pick through some of his stuff and might call his format "valid".  It would be the same if I gave you a mathmatical formula that was complete jibberish but told you that my format was valid because I used x + y = z.   
I put all the symbols in the proper order.   So what?

Your point when you brought this up the first time was that because out of all the shit he wrote some of it appears to be in if/then/thefore format and somehow that suggest he might be sane?

why would you conclude he might be sane, especially given all his other writings, most of which don't follow any format and the larger and more salient piont that none of it makes any sense

You give him points for structure and surmise that might mean he's sane

I don't see the connection

 

bro i know his shit sounds stupid and insane but it actually looks like very basic logic shit

if A = B
and B = C
Then A = C

type shit

basic if, then statements

if all dogs are a boys
and steve has 3 dogs
then the dogs are all boys...

like i said it just sounds

his shit is set up alot the same way, yea its crazy shit he seems to be talking about but it could be very possible that this guy is completely sane

[tonymctones]

these are better examples but not even all of these follow the format as shown in your exampele (see below).  I  can see how you can pick through some of his stuff and might call his format "valid".  It would be the same if I gave you a mathmatical formula that was complete jibberish but told you that my format was valid because I used x + y = z.  
I put all the symbols in the proper order.   So what?

Your point when you brought this up the first time was that because out of all the shit he wrote some of it appears to be in if/then/thefore format and somehow that suggest he might be sane?

why would you conclude he might be sane, especially given all his other writings, most of which don't follow any format and the larger and more salient piont that none of it makes any sense

You give him points for structure and surmise that might mean he's sane

I don't see the connection

first of all the format is not what is valid or not valid...

its the premises and the conclusion that are deemed to be valid or not valid...

you still dont seem to get it....in philosophy/logic which is obviously the format he is using when typing this shit...an argument doesnt have to be true to be valid...I already posted about this...I dont mind you not reading my links but please read my posts...SOUNDESS refers to being "true"

he does make valid arguments even though they are not sound

what im saying is while yes it sounds crazy and disorganized there is actually some organization to his rantings.

IM NOT SAYING HE IS SANE, only that it is a possibility....

[Hugo Chavez]

tony, this is batshit crazy, end of story.  There is no other option here.  This is mentally nuts beyond repair.

   He uploaded the attached image with this post.  Anyone who says this isn't insane is probably not playing with a full deck themselves lol...

This is for determining the location.

I present this because of how to locate the money source for distribution.

If the poster locates the currency for purchase then the currency is in use for the location.
The currency isn't in use for the location.
Therefore, the poster didn't locate the currency for purchase.

If the poster locates the universe then the poster locates the outside universe.
The poster didn't locate the outside universe.
Nonetheless, the poster didn't locate the universe.

This is flattering to me for the location of a currency!
How flattering is this thread!

[tonymctones]

tony, this is batshit crazy, end of story.  There is no other option here.  This is mentally nuts beyond repair.

   He uploaded the attached image with this post.  Anyone who says this isn't insane is probably not playing with a full deck themselves lol...

LOL bro youre looking at one specific part and not taking the whole shit in...

he also posted a message apologizing and asking his friends to not be mad...

does that sound like someone who is insane?

youre just looking at the shit that makes him look crazy instead of taking everything in...

I hope he is crazy to be honest, I hate to think that someone who is totally sane could point a gun at an innocent 9 year old girl and pull the trigger but again its a possibility that he is sane.

[Straw Man]

first of all the format is not what is valid or not valid...

its the premises and the conclusion that are deemed to be valid or not valid...

you still dont seem to get it....in philosophy/logic which is obviously the format he is using when typing this shit...an argument doesnt have to be true to be valid...I already posted about this...I dont mind you not reading my links but please read my posts...SOUNDESS refers to being "true"

he does make valid arguments even though they are not sound

what im saying is while yes it sounds crazy and disorganized there is actually some organization to his rantings.

IM NOT SAYING HE IS SANE, only that it is a possibility....

Tony - didn't you read the Wiki page which you posted and then reminded me about

The validity of an argument depends, however, not on the actual truth or falsity of its premises and conclusions, but solely on whether or not the argument has a valid logical form. The validity of an argument is not a guarantee of the truth of its conclusion. A valid argument may have false premises and a false conclusion.

you said that he used the proper form or structure ins some of his many incoherent rambling and then ended with the statement that he might be sane.   Should we assume your argument about form was what led you to concluded that he might be sane or are they totally unrelated and one statement (which appears to be conclusion) just happens to follow the other

[tonymctones]

Tony - didn't you read the Wiki page which you posted and then reminded me about

you said that he used the proper form or structure ins some of his many incoherent rambling and then ended with the statement that he might be sane.   Should we assume your argument about form was what led you to concluded that he might be sane or are they totally unrelated and one statement (which appears to be conclusion) just happens to follow the other

LOL this is the problem straw, the terminology is different...just like you had a problem with the term valid, youre not understanding this...

my point was

goodness gracious dude you and straw man are two peas in a pod bro...

I never said that makes him sane, what i was trying to do was show that it wasnt necissarily an in coherent mess of shit...

its nothing to get upset over or become passive aggressive over

[Straw Man]

Tony - you and I can agree that he is most definitely a piece of shit but I don't agree in any way that he's coherent and I don't agree that that because he managed to structure a few of his ramblings in a way that you find structurely valid  offers any evidence that he might be coherent.

your own link says a "valid" argument can have a false premise and a false conclusion

I can't even figure out what is the premise and conclusion of this statement

We already know you think this statement is "valid" so maybe you can tell us the premise and conclusion

If NASA communication signals reaches mars then NASA communication signal from the mars rover.
The NASA communication signals reaches mars
Therefore, NASA communication signals from the mars rover.

[Hugo Chavez]

LOL bro youre looking at one specific part and not taking the whole shit in...

he also posted a message apologizing and asking his friends to not be mad...

does that sound like someone who is insane?

youre just looking at the shit that makes him look crazy instead of taking everything in...

I hope he is crazy to be honest, I hate to think that someone who is totally sane could point a gun at an innocent 9 year old girl and pull the trigger but again its a possibility that he is sane.

dude, 99 percent of what he wrote makes him look crazy.  It's not like I had to cherry pick things to make him look crazy.  That he manages to squeak out something normal in maybe 1 percent of what he wrote isn't exactly making a great case for his possible sanity lololol...

Tony, I have a question for you.  Basic logic structure is very simple right?  Anyone should be able to write out valid logic statements without much difficulty.  Yet almost all of his statement consist of (A=B) (B=Whatever I want) Therefore A=Whatever I want... lol... That's delusional  He created an alternate reality via making A=whatever he wants.

If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle.
The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle.<==B Whatever he wants
Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F.

This level of creating your own reality is fucking batshit insane.

[tonymctones]

Tony - you and I can agree that he is most definitely a piece of shit but I don't agree in any way that he's coherent and I don't agree that that because he managed to structure a few of his ramblings in a way that you find structurely valid  offers any evidence that he might be coherent.

your own link says a "valid" argument can have a false premise and a false conclusion

I can't even figure out what the premise as and conclusion of this statement it

We already know you think this statement is "valid" so maybe you can tell us the premise and conclusion

I agree, I didnt say it was coherent only that it wasnt a incoherent mess...

it is organized, its random shit no doubt about it but its organized in a specific way random shit

From what I can tell, its obvious that he is trying to write in such a fashion even if its not correct...

Premise
If NASA communication signals reaches mars then NASA communication signal from the mars rover.

Premise:
The NASA communication signals reaches mars

Conclusion
Therefore, NASA communication signals from the mars rover.

 

I didnt say all his statements are valid as a matter of fact i said some werent, but yes some are...

[tonymctones]

dude, 99 percent of what he wrote makes him look crazy.  It's not like I had to cherry pick things to make him look crazy.  That he manages to squeak out something normal in maybe 1 percent of what he wrote isn't exactly making a great case for his possible sanity lololol...

Tony, I have a question for you.  Basic logic structure is very simple right?  Anyone should be able to write out valid logic statements without much difficulty.  Yet almost all of his statement consist of (A=B) (B=Whatever I want) Therefore A=Whatever I want... lol... That's delusional  He created an alternate reality via making A=whatever he wants.

If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle.
The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle.<==B Whatever he wants
Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F.

This level of creating your own reality is fucking batshit insane.

yes hugo, but the 100% of shit were judging off of is what he wanted us to see....that doesnt mean its 100% of his thoughts, just what weve been allowed to see thus far...

and thus far some of his actions and words arent completely insane...

think of logic statements as bubbles where rules outside of those statements dont apply to validity...

all cups are green
hugo is a cup
hugo is green

this is a valid statement even though its false

b/c if you assume that the premesis are true, that makes the conclusion true again with the bubble

they can get pretty damn complicated, honestly i took 2 philosophy classes and even in the first one there were problems where you would have premesis and conclusions that would take up entire pages for just one problem...and that was in the A=B, AUB, AVB etc...format...not in sentence format

[Straw Man]

I agree, I didnt say it was coherent only that it wasnt a incoherent mess...

it is organized, its random shit no doubt about it but its organized in a specific way random shit

From what I can tell, its obvious that he is trying to write in such a fashion even if its not correct...

Premise
If NASA communication signals reaches mars then NASA communication signal from the mars rover.

Premise:
The NASA communication signals reaches mars

Conclusion
Therefore, NASA communication signals from the mars rover.

 

I didnt say all his statements are valid as a matter of fact i said some werent, but yes some are...

he has if/then in the first sentence

then another thing you call a premise and then a conclusion

is that the valid structure you're talking about

wait - you said (in complete contrast to your Wiki link) that it's not the structure  (Wiki says "form") that is "valid" but his premise and conclusion that are valid

Can you explain what his premise and conclusion mean in your own words

here's your quote for reference

first of all the format is not what is valid or not valid...

its the premises and the conclusion that are deemed to be valid or not valid...

you still dont seem to get it....in philosophy/logic which is obviously the format he is using when typing this shit...an argument doesnt have to be true to be valid...I already posted about this...I dont mind you not reading my links but please read my posts...SOUNDESS refers to being "true"

he does make valid arguments even though they are not sound

what im saying is while yes it sounds crazy and disorganized there is actually some organization to his rantings.

IM NOT SAYING HE IS SANE, only that it is a possibility....

[tonymctones]

If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle.
The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle.<==B Whatever he wants
Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F.

This level of creating your own reality is fucking batshit insane.

this is a perfect example of an invalid argument in logic/philosophy...

if you assume that "the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle."

and you assume that "The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle"

then "the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F"

problem is that according to the rules of the argument the living space may not have been able to sustain a human body for other reasons other than not being able to keep the temp at -454

dude you should have seen some of the weird shit in philosophy/logic classes

it seemed they would say absurd shit to get the point of their concept across

again not saying this makes him sane, but he obviously orgnanized his shit in a specific format

[Hugo Chavez]

what's it say about a person's mental status when they can't put together even the most basic valid logic statements?  What's it say about that person's mind when they use obviouly invalid statements to create an untrue reality?  It can't say much for their sanity.

He takes a step in his statements that make the statements utterly senseless yet it makes sense to him!  The fact that he does this means he's not of sound mind.  This is disordered or deranged and all this pretty much is the definition of insane.

[Hugo Chavez]

this is a perfect example of an invalid argument in logic/philosophy...

if you assume that "the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle."

and you assume that "The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle"

then "the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of −454 °F"

problem is that according to the rules of the argument the living space may not have been able to sustain a human body for other reasons other than not being able to keep the temp at -454

dude you should have seen some of the weird shit in philosophy/logic classes

it seemed they would say absurd shit to get the point of their concept across

again not saying this makes him sane, but he obviously orgnanized his shit in a specific format

but he sees it as valid, not invalid.

[tonymctones]

he has if/then in the first sentence

then another thing you call a premise and then a conclusion

is that the valid structure you're talking about

wait - you said (in complete contrast to your Wiki link) that it's not the structure  (Wiki says "form") that is "valid" but his premise and conclusion that are valid

Can you explain what his premise and conclusion mean in your own words

here's your quote for reference

LOL that first if, then is the first premise...would be denoted by A->B

as in in if A then B

[tonymctones]

but he sees it as valid, not invalid.

we dont know if he sees it as invalid or valid...he could have meant to write it that way for all we know

what's it say about a person's mental status when they can't put together even the most basic valid logic statements?  What's it say about that person's mind when they use obviouly invalid statements to create an untrue reality?  It can't say much for their sanity.

He takes a step in his statements that make the statements utterly senseless yet it makes sense to him!  The fact that he does this means he's not of sound mind.  This is disordered or deranged and all this pretty much is the definition of insane.

again were looking at things that probably make up 1% of his life and projecting them onto 100% of his life...

this is what weve been allowed to see, by going off just this yea id say at the very least he is somewhat disturbed but again there are things that make him seem sane...

[Hugo Chavez]

his logic is to make A whatever he wants it to be no matter what it started out as.  There's something very wrong with that.

[tonymctones]

his logic is to make A whatever he wants it to be no matter what it started out as.  There's something very wrong with that.

actually the premises are fine in that argument its the conclusion thats wrong

thats the thing with logical arguments you can make the premises whatever you want...

[Hugo Chavez]

we dont know if he sees it as invalid or valid...he could have meant to write it that way for all we knowagain were looking at things that probably make up 1% of his life and projecting them onto 100% of his life...

this is what weve been allowed to see, by going off just this yea id say at the very least he is somewhat disturbed but again there are things that make him seem sane...

yes we do know he sees it as valid.  He's using it to say that the shuttles are unmanned.  He sees it as a valid ordered statement proving shuttles are not manned.  I read that somewhere in the pages of crap I was pooring over.  Same thing with the mars rover.  He sees his statements as valid logic proving that the rover on mars was faked.  He actually posted quite a bit online.  I only posted a few things but there are quite a few long threads he created over at ATS. 

All personal accounts coming from people are all nuts.  Nobody is coming forth saying he was normal.  By all accounts the guy started going batshit in highschool and it just got worse to the point that people FEARED being in a classroom with him.  Of everything he is known to have written almost 100% of it is crazy batshit.  You really think we're missing the inner normal Jared lol?