Author Topic: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!  (Read 9682 times)

Straw Man

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Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« on: February 02, 2011, 09:08:59 AM »
Let’s begin today’s history lesson with the following news:

(CNN) -- Officials from 14 states have gone to court to block the historic overhaul of the U.S. health care system that President Obama signed into law Tuesday, arguing the law's requirement that individuals buy health insurance violates the Constitution.

Thirteen of those officials filed suit in a federal court in Pensacola, Florida, minutes after Obama signed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The complaint calls the act an "unprecedented encroachment on the sovereignty of the states" and asks a judge to block its enforcement.

"The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty, that all citizens and legal residents have qualifying health care coverage," the lawsuit states.

The history lesson

In July, 1798, Congress passed, and President John Adams signed into law “An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen,” authorizing the creation of a marine hospital service, and mandating privately employed sailors to purchase healthcare insurance.

This legislation also created America’s first payroll tax, as a ship’s owner was required to deduct 20 cents from each sailor’s monthly pay and forward those receipts to the service, which in turn provided injured sailors hospital care. Failure to pay or account properly was discouraged by requiring a law violating owner or ship's captain to pay a 100 dollar fine.

This historical fact demolishes claims of “unprecedented” and "The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty...”
Perhaps these somewhat incompetent attorneys general might wish to amend their lawsuits to conform to the 1798 precedent, and demand that the mandate and fines be linked to implementing a federal single payer healthcare insurance plan.

The other option is to name Presidents John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison et al. in the lawsuits. However, it might be difficult to convince a judge, or the public, that those men didn't know the limits of the Constitution

Because the attorneys general research is obviously lacking a comprehensive review of history and the Constitution, I’m providing a copy of the 5th Congress’ 1798 legislation.

CHAP. LXXVII – An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen
Section 1.  Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled -
That from and after the first day of September next, the master or owner of every ship

or vessel of the United States, arriving from a foreign port into any

port of the United States, shall, before such ship or vessel shall be

admitted to an entry, render to the collector a true account of the

number of seamen, that shall have been employed on board such vessel

since she was last entered at any port in the United States,-and shall

pay to the said collector, at the rate of twenty cents per month for every

seaman so employed; which sum he is hereby authorized to retain out

of the wages of such seamen.

SEC2. . And be it further enacted, That from and after the first day

of September next, no collector shall grant to any ship or vessel whose

enrolment or license for carrying on the coasting trade has expired, a

new enrolment or license before the master of such ship or vessel shall

first render a true account to the collector, of the number of seamen,

and the time they have severally been employed on board such ship or

vessel, during the continuance of the license which has so expired, and

pay to such collector twenty cents per month for every month such

seamen have been severally employed, as aforesaid; which sum the said

master is hereby authorized to retain out of the wages of such seamen.

And if any such master shall render a false account of the number of  men, and the length of time they have severally been employed, as is

herein required, he shall forfeit and pay one hundred dollars.

 

SEC3. . And be it further enacted, That it shall be the duty of the

several collectors to make a quarterly return of the sums collected by

them, respectively, by virtue of this act, to the Secretary of the Treasury;

and the President of the United States is hereby authorized, out of the same, to provide for the temporary relief and maintenance of sick or

disabled seamen, in the hospitals or other proper institutions now established

in the several ports of the United States, or, in ports where no

such institutions exist, then in such other manner as he shall direct:

Provided, that the monies collected in any one district, shall be expended

within the same.

 

SEC. 4. .And be it further enacted, That if any surplus shall remain

of the monies to be collected by virtue of this act, after defraying the

expense of such temporary relief and support, that the same, together ,

with such private donations as may be made for that purpose (which the

President is hereby authorized to receive) shall be invested in the stock

of the United States, under the direction of the President; and when,

in his opinion, a sufficient fund shall be accumulated, he is hereby

authorized to purchase or receive cessions or donations of ground or

provision for buildings, in the name of the United States, and to cause buildings,

when necessary, to be erected as hospitals for the accommodation of sick and disabled seamen.

 

SEC5. . And be it further enacted, That the President of the United

States be, and he is hereby authorized to nominate and appoint, in

such ports of the United States, as he may think proper, one or more

persons, to be called directors of the marine hospital of the United

States, whose duty it shall be to direct the expenditure of the fund

assigned for their respective ports, according to the third section of this

act; to provide for the accommodation of sick and disabled seamen,

under such general instructions as shall be given by, the President of

the United States, for that purpose, and also subject to the like general

instructions, to direct and govern such hospitals as the President may

direct to be built in the respective ports: and that the said directors

shall hold their offices during the pleasure of the President, who is

authorized to fill up all vacancies that may be occasioned by the death

or removal of any of the persons so to be appointed. And the said

directors shall render an account of the monies received and expended

by them, once in every quarter of a year, to the Secretary of the Treasury,

or such other person as the President shall direct; but no other

allowance or compensation shall be made to the said directors, except

the payment of such expenses as they may incur in the actual discharge

of the duties required by this act.

 

APPROVED July 16, 1798.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2011, 09:18:01 AM »
 ::)  ::)

Were all american citizens forced to be Seamen?

BTW moron -   Ho do ou defendthe mandate now when ObaMadoff campaigned AGAINST IT!   

 

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 09:21:56 AM »
::)  ::)

Were all american citizens forced to be Seamen?

BTW moron -   Ho do ou defendthe mandate now when ObaMadoff campaigned AGAINST IT!   

 

no but seamen were private citizens and this was a mandate to buy an insurance product with penalties for non-compliance

just pointing out the precedent is there

Dos Equis

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 09:22:14 AM »
::)  ::)

Were all american citizens forced to be Seamen?
 

Exactly.  

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 09:28:51 AM »
"The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty, that all citizens and legal residents have qualifying health care coverage," the lawsuit states.



________________________ ________


Not all citizens are sailors or seamen.   

Straw - what if the Federal Govt forced you to purchase a AR 15, Glock 19, and Shotgun for home defese since due to budget cuts, they could no longer afford a police force?


hhhhmmmmm? ?  ? ?    ?   

   

Emmortal

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 09:29:15 AM »
no but seamen were private citizens and this was a mandate to buy an insurance product with penalties for non-compliance

just pointing out the precedent is there

Which has absolutely nothing to do with citizens.  You do realize the military are forced to also have health insurance IIRC?

Fury

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 09:30:53 AM »
This thread's looking to take its place alongside the other embarrassing disasters Straw Man has made.

Paging George Washington.

Dos Equis

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 09:39:17 AM »
lol

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 09:43:09 AM »
seamen were private citizens so there is clearly a precedent for the Federal government requiring private citizens to purchase health care insurance

if one segment of private citizens have been required to purchase insurance then what's the argument that it cant' be extended to all private citizens.

btw - if you need another example - check your 2010 W-2 and you'll see the government required you to pay into medicare

the precedents are there

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 09:46:19 AM »
seamen were private citizens so there is clearly a precedent for the Federal government requiring private citizens to purchase health care insurance

if one segment of private citizens have been required to purchase insurance then what's the argument that it cant' be extended to all private citizens.

btw - if you need another example - check your 2010 W-2 and you'll see the government required you to pay into medicare

the precedents are there

Typical STRAW MAN crap from you. 

Are you really as stupid and dense as this?    Can you really not see the stupidity of this?   

1. Not all citizens are or were seamen.   This is the same as car insurance.  If you dont want to pay insurance - dont own a car.   But you have a choice!   

2.   Medicar isa public program  - Obamacare is a mandate to purchase a prvate product rom a private company under force of law as a condition of being alive.   Are you really that dense and ignorant to not see the difference?       

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 09:46:22 AM »
"The Constitution nowhere authorizes the United States to mandate, either directly or under threat of penalty, that all citizens and legal residents have qualifying health care coverage," the lawsuit states.



________________________ ________


Not all citizens are sailors or seamen.   

Straw - what if the Federal Govt forced you to purchase a AR 15, Glock 19, and Shotgun for home defese since due to budget cuts, they could no longer afford a police force?


hhhhmmmmm? ?  ? ?    ?   

   

there is a precedent for that too which I've mentioned more than once on this board

google Militia Act of 1792

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 09:49:43 AM »
Typical STRAW MAN crap from you. 

Are you really as stupid and dense as this?    Can you really not see the stupidity of this?   

1. Not all citizens are or were seamen.   This is the same as car insurance.  If you dont want to pay insurance - dont own a car.   But you have a choice!   

2.   Medicar isa public program  - Obamacare is a mandate to purchase a prvate product rom a private company under force of law as a condition of being alive.   Are you really that dense and ignorant to not see the difference?       

1.  private citizen = private citizen.  What's the difference if one is a sailor and another is a teacher and another is an attorney etc...   BTW - I'd be fine with an one time exclusion provided people waived their rights to get back in once they are sick or injured.    That's the point of the mandate - to get rid of free loaders

2.  I'm all for scrapping the current legislation and going with the public option. I assume you must be in favor of that too

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 09:51:54 AM »
1.  private citizen = private citizen.  What's the difference if one is a sailor and another is a teacher and another is an attorney etc...   BTW - I'd be fine with an one time exclusion provided people waived their rights to get back in once they are sick or injured.    That's the point of the mandate - to get rid of free loaders

2.  I'm all for scrapping the current legislation and going with the public option. I assume you must be in favor of that too


Difference is that you have the CHOICE not to be a sailor if you don't want to. 

As for the "public option" - we already have that.   Its called Medicaid.   

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 09:56:09 AM »

Difference is that you have the CHOICE not to be a sailor if you don't want to. 

As for the "public option" - we already have that.   Its called Medicaid.   

yeah - all you have to do it be completely broke and you can get medicaid

how would that help you if you're a middle income earner and you need to pay for hundreds of thousands of dollars for say cancer treatment?


Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 10:01:33 AM »
yeah - all you have to do it be completely broke and you can get medicaid

how would that help you if you're a middle income earner and you need to pay for hundreds of thousands of dollars for say cancer treatment?




Here is the problem genius - ObamaCares' mandates are driving up the cost of premiums beyond what anyone can afford and more and more will be driven on to medicaid as it is.

I really don't think if Obama tried any harder he could have come up with a worse pofs bill than he and pelosi did.   

It does the complete opposite of what he promised.   




 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 10:14:36 AM »



Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 10:20:13 AM »



Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 10:24:22 AM »




so again, I assume you must be advocating for a single payer system

I agree with you on that

Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2011, 10:26:37 AM »
Whether I agree with it or not, it would probably be legal if they set up a govt run plan and collected taxes for it.

What they are doing now is insane.   

   

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 10:27:58 AM »
Whether I agree with it or not, it would probably be legal if they set up a govt run plan and collected taxes for it. What they are doing now is insane.   

I'm sure you don't recall but that was my preferred option too, as well as many Dems.   You might recall that many people were pissed that the Dems and Obama caved on that.   


Soul Crusher

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 10:30:35 AM »
I'm sure you don't recall but that was my preferred option too, as well as many Dems.   You might recall that many people were pissed that the Dems and Obama caved on that.   



Look, I think most people want an affordable plan that covers catastrophic shit and you dont have to worry about being bankrupted.   

The way things are going - its not affordable in the least bit.     

Straw Man

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 10:33:29 AM »
Look, I think most people want an affordable plan that covers catastrophic shit and you dont have to worry about being bankrupted.   

The way things are going - its not affordable in the least bit.     

yet former playing field had companies like Walmart that essentially gamed the system to move the burden of insuring their employees to the US tax payer

Shit - one HUGE and SIMPLE fix would be to get rid of the legal monopoly that we've given health insurance companies.   I don't even see how that is legal to begin with

Skip8282

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2011, 02:50:38 PM »
This is a repost, but as I understand it the Act refers to seamen engaged on US licensed vessels AND engaged in commerce with the States and foreign governments.  And regulating that commerce is expressely authorized in the constitution.

If anything, this precedent seems more akin to contractors with the federal government being required to pay a certain wage and benefit amount.

For Obamacare, you don't have to be doing anything remotely related and you still have to pay for health insurance.  I'd like to know if there's any precendent for that.

tonymctones

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 03:09:49 PM »
This is a repost, but as I understand it the Act refers to seamen engaged on US licensed vessels AND engaged in commerce with the States and foreign governments.  And regulating that commerce is expressely authorized in the constitution.

If anything, this precedent seems more akin to contractors with the federal government being required to pay a certain wage and benefit amount.

For Obamacare, you don't have to be doing anything remotely related and you still have to pay for health insurance.  I'd like to know if there's any precendent for that.
SKIP FOR THE WIN

the mandate youve put forth straw regulates actions...as in if you CHOOSE to be a sailor you have to buy insurance...like car insurance

obamas idiocy mandates INACTION...

you cannot regulate INACTION...you can regulate ACTION

nice try though

MCWAY

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Re: Pres. Signs H-Care Insurance Mandate-212 Years Ago!
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2011, 04:05:48 PM »
seamen were private citizens so there is clearly a precedent for the Federal government requiring private citizens to purchase health care insurance

if one segment of private citizens have been required to purchase insurance then what's the argument that it cant' be extended to all private citizens.

btw - if you need another example - check your 2010 W-2 and you'll see the government required you to pay into medicare

the precedents are there

The argument is that those private citizens VOLUNTEERED to do business with the federal government, just as private companies today, that do business with the Department of Defense, have to abide by certain DoD rules.

As others have stated, they weren't forced to be seaman. Nor were they forced to buy insurance once they stopped being seaman.

And, if what Skip said is accurate, those seamen were indeed GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES.