Author Topic: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success  (Read 40094 times)

dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #225 on: February 16, 2011, 05:11:21 AM »
Thanks X ;) P.S. The results of that 2nd study seem to fly in the face of tbombz supposed therory ::) There's a few points missing in those studies though, one is the VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that one must de-regulate frequency and volume downwards as one continues to get bigger and stronger, ie. Mike Mentzer's consolidation routine.

Jaime

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #226 on: February 16, 2011, 05:15:55 AM »
Groink, shake your head hard and clear out the debris. You are typical of muscleheads who think they know things but are filled with the flotsam and jetsam of discussion board nonsense and collected jargon, false ideas and beliefs embraced by the dumbbell community. You will think you know what you are talking about and others will agree with you because they too are denser than cast iron. Hard to believe so many know so little about something that isn't rocket science.


You are easily one of the most condescending posters on this board, the fact that you can't even have a debate after living on this earth for about 80 years is a pretty sad indictment of your personality.
Trans Milkshake.

Vince B

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #227 on: February 16, 2011, 06:18:33 AM »
I will admit that I'm tempted to give it a run, but... I'm rather convinced that it would quickly lead to a state of gross overtraining, and in fact the arm muscles would get smaller and weaker following this particular protocol. Of course I'm talking with regards to natural trainers.

Here you are getting free advice and you dismiss it because of your beliefs. If you are not an expert how do you know what to accept and what to reject? Surely if you are not growing rapidly you have to rethink what you are doing and discard or change your beliefs. You miss the main part of what I do. No matter what you do re sets and reps IF the muscle isn't quite sore the next day then you didn't do enough or didn't do the right exercise or hard enough or all three. You can't read part of what I write and discard other essential parts. It is necessary for soreness to develop the next day and remain sore for several days. This won't be easy to do with biceps so that is a real problem for just about everyone. However, those who succeed in making both biceps and triceps sore will probably grow more than 1/10 of an inch from that workout. That is over 1 inch in the month from 10 workouts.

Don't worry about overtraining because that doesn't apply to DOMS training. Just work arms for a month for your upper body. Nothing else. This is important. I am talking about natural trainees as well.

If I knew how big you guys were and your level of development I could factor that in and give you more specific information about particular exercises.

che

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #228 on: February 16, 2011, 06:25:24 AM »
Here you are getting free advice and you dismiss it because of your beliefs. If you are not an expert how do you know what to accept and what to reject? Surely if you are not growing rapidly you have to rethink what you are doing and discard or change your beliefs. You miss the main part of what I do. No matter what you do re sets and reps IF the muscle isn't quite sore the next day then you didn't do enough or didn't do the right exercise or hard enough or all three. You can't read part of what I write and discard other essential parts. It is necessary for soreness to develop the next day and remain sore for several days. This won't be easy to do with biceps so that is a real problem for just about everyone. However, those who succeed in making both biceps and triceps sore will probably grow more than 1/10 of an inch from that workout. That is over 1 inch in the month from 10 workouts.

Don't worry about overtraining because that doesn't apply to DOMS training. Just work arms for a month for your upper body. Nothing else. This is important. I am talking about natural trainees as well.

If I knew how big you guys were and your level of development I could factor that in and give you more specific information about particular exercises.

STFU Vince my muscles never get sore the next day,  they get sore 2 days after my workout. I hope this helps

The Showstoppa

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #229 on: February 16, 2011, 06:26:58 AM »
STFU Vince my muscles never get sore the next day,  they get sore 2 days after my workout. I hope this helps

Same here.....NEVER the next day, always the 2nd day.

Palpatine Q

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #230 on: February 16, 2011, 06:28:10 AM »
Yes.

Though we are unique in our own way but as a living organism we are identical. Carbon base life form, heart, lungs, breath oxygen, process carbs, fats, proteins... It only differs in matters of degree and specificity. The general principles apply to everyone. They are universal. If you get a bacterial infection an antibiotic will kill the bacteria. What specific type of antibiotic, dose and frequency will vary and the response will also vary. I, for example, am allergic to Penicillin, one of the most common and effective antibiotics in use when I was a kid but potentially lethal for me. I had to use Tretracycline. But the same universal principle of using an antibiotic still applied to me. It was only the specifics that differed.

Steroids will have an anabolic effect on everyone, the degree of the effect will vary. Overloading a muscle will stimulate an adaptive response. The degree of that response will vary but the general principle of overload applies to everyone. Squats may be an ideal movement for some but a disaster for someone 6'10". But the same general principle of overloading the muscle using that plane of movement is necessary for quads.

If general principles regarding the human body didn't apply to everybody the field and science of medicine simply could not exist.

There does exists universal principles that optimizes muscle hypertrophy. What they are exactly I don't know. Science seems to have little interest in fully exploring this. It is not even conclusive what actually happens that stimulate a muscle to grow. This idea of micro tears causing an over adaptation has never been proven. Hell, I've had several muscle tears that went far beyond these micro tears with visible bruising and no small amount of pain. It did nothing to stimulate muscle growth.



LOL....you say "yes" and conclude by saying "What they are exactly i don't know"

And Basile applauds......this place is a fucking joke.

Palpatine Q

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #231 on: February 16, 2011, 06:31:24 AM »
I have a question Gronik, when you cut back on your training intensity and started growing again, did your training weights increase?


No I decreased the weight and did more reps....I don't think high weight /low rep is optimal for BBing.

It's an ego thing

che

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #232 on: February 16, 2011, 06:33:15 AM »

No I decreased the weight and did more reps....I don't think high weight /low rep is optimal for BBing.

It's an ego thing

Haha, poor DJ

Option D

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #233 on: February 16, 2011, 06:35:10 AM »
I want to believe, I really do.


But I don't, sorry.

More test = more muscle.



Damn...true story there

dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #234 on: February 16, 2011, 06:42:40 AM »
Allright Gronik, so you decreased the weight and increased the reps yes? Well, that still doesn't answer my question actually. So let me be a little more exact. I don't know how many reps that you mean by "higher reps" but for the sake of simplicity lets say you mean 15 reps. Ok, so the question is... Did your 15 rep, or whatever reps you use, max go up?

dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #235 on: February 16, 2011, 06:46:17 AM »
And Vince, so are you saying to train only arms for the whole month and nothing else? Also, do you believe that training loads will increase following your particular protocol? For me, the whole ballgame boils down to this: INCREASED TRAINING LOADS=BIGGER MUSCLES

Meso_z

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #236 on: February 16, 2011, 06:46:38 AM »
I just get in there, pick up dumbels, barbels and wave them up and down. whats so difficult to understand..

Make sure you have a water bottle and a towel with you. just in case you get thirsty or sweat.

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #237 on: February 16, 2011, 06:53:06 AM »
my friends, they key to making progress every workout, to getting as big as possible, as strong as possible, is to never EVER cause significant muscle damage. this means staying at least 2-3 reps shy of failure on EVERY set. even when youve already done several heavy sets and you would hit failure by doing 3-5 reps , you need to stop at 1-3 reps (just an example). never ever cause muscle damage.  when you damage the muscle, your body has to repair that damage, and cant focus on building new muscle tissue. strength POTENTIAL and muscle size are directly correlated.  the more muscle you have the moe weight you can lift. the more glycogen and water you have in the muscle the more rep capacity you have. if you want to get big and strong, you need to lift heavy heavy heavy. good form. stimulate the muscle to add new muscle cells so you can lift more weight. BUT STAY AWAY FROM FAILURE. you can add some extra size by throwing in higher reps, but only to a degree. you cant add any significant muscle tissue without progressive overload, all you do by increasing reps is increase stamina/rep capacity/glycogen/water levels.

discuss

Shut your pie hole you roided up tool

Palpatine Q

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #238 on: February 16, 2011, 07:48:51 AM »
Allright Gronik, so you decreased the weight and increased the reps yes? Well, that still doesn't answer my question actually. So let me be a little more exact. I don't know how many reps that you mean by "higher reps" but for the sake of simplicity lets say you mean 15 reps. Ok, so the question is... Did your 15 rep, or whatever reps you use, max go up?

Why don't you just tell me what you want me to say ?

You are obviously looking for a specific answer to back up your theory

Van_Bilderass

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #239 on: February 16, 2011, 08:40:40 AM »

bull. if going to failure is ever advantagous, which it may be every now and then, it would apply to every muscle, not selectively.



It would, except for a few things. First, you obviously have to consider the physical system as a whole. A set done to failure on a rear delt machine is a lot less stressful than a to-failure set on squats or deads. Obviously.  :D

You have to consider what the typical last possible rep on a set of an exercise looks like. On some movements you can strain for a few seconds whereas others you fail at quickly. The longer you can strain the more "damage" is being done to the muscle, not to mention nervous system. And what does the eccentric component of a movement look like? You mentioned "Olympic powerlifters". Olympic lifters actually often train very close to max for multiple sets, with high frequency. How can they do this? There is no eccentric component to the Olympic lifts! Olympic lifts are less stressful on the system and individual muscles than the powerlifts - where max lifts are often sloow and strained, plus you have heavy eccentric loading. A snatch to failure is lot different than a deadlift to failure!  ;)
There's a lot of close-to-failure training done by powerlifters too. A few have stressed that you should never fail in training, mostly due to psychological factors. But many/most powerlifters, for example the "Westside" guys, go to failure frequently, tons and tons of missed lifts in training.

Then we have the whole "muscle damage" theory which is often equated with the DOMS. The research, from memory, is a bit conflicting. Some data says there's no structural damage done despite DOMS, for example. That the DOMS may be due to some 'chemical leakage' which stimulates pain receptors. Paraphrasing, one study said that DOMS could simply be seen a sign of adaptation happening, not muscle damage as such.

IMO you'll not get as strong as possible without ever going to failure, much less 2-3 reps shy. And you'll never get as strong as possible by always going to failure.

You have to consider the person doing the program, the movement selection, and you have to consider the program as a whole.

There is no magic hypertrophy trigger in the last rep. But there is no overtraining/muscle damage trigger either. It depends!  :D


dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #240 on: February 16, 2011, 08:41:29 AM »
Allright, fair enough. So what I'm trying to say is this: Your muscles got bigger because you were able to train with heavier training loads. I'm not talking about a 1 rep max, I'm talking specifically about an 8 rep max, 10 rep max, 15 rep max. So it comes down to something like this: If one makes their biceps bigger, than their bicep training loads MUST INCREASE. Again a 10 rep max for example. So what is one supposed to go to get bigger biceps? Train with lesser and lesser training loads?

dj181

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #241 on: February 16, 2011, 08:46:09 AM »
Good points Van, but what about decreasing training frequency as one gets stronger, in order to enable one to keep progressing?

Van_Bilderass

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #242 on: February 16, 2011, 09:04:04 AM »
Good points Van, but what about decreasing training frequency as one gets stronger, in order to enable one to keep progressing?

Man, sounds like a simple question but it isn't to me! :D

Depends on why the subject isn't progressing I guess.  If he's overtrained or overreaching it should help. OTOH someone else could benefit from training more frequently, at least for a while. Kind of like some athletes purposely try to hit an overreaching stage and then do a taper and wait for the performance increase.  :D

Bodybuilders do this too, except it also involves dieting. Train and diet yourself into the ground, then rebound to next level.

Meso_z

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #243 on: February 16, 2011, 09:07:24 AM »
Good posts Van.

pellius

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #244 on: February 16, 2011, 11:25:07 AM »

LOL....you say "yes" and conclude by saying "What they are exactly i don't know"

And Basile applauds......this place is a fucking joke.

You seem to miss the point. There does exist a universal principle in regard to the human body that applies to everyone. And this is not limited to just bodybuilding. Once we find a cure for cancer it will cure everyone because we are biologically identical varying only in specifics. But in bodybuilding, like cancer, we haven't found the exact prescription.

Is it clear now?

pellius

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #245 on: February 16, 2011, 11:29:25 AM »
Stop beating around the bush and tell us about the theories you believe in for hypertrophy.

Well, if you insist.

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ManBearPig...

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #246 on: February 16, 2011, 11:44:32 AM »
Well, if you insist.

testosterona
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ghona

after all this spewage posted here, this is the only answer that makes sense. 
Deep Tissue Massage

Palpatine Q

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #247 on: February 16, 2011, 11:46:34 AM »
You seem to miss the point. There does exist a universal principle in regard to the human body that applies to everyone. And this is not limited to just bodybuilding. Once we find a cure for cancer it will cure everyone because we are biologically identical varying only in specifics. But in bodybuilding, like cancer, we haven't found the exact prescription.

Is it clear now?


Yes....you don't know either. Very clear

Mr Nobody

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #248 on: February 16, 2011, 12:20:50 PM »
Looks like we need to bring Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones back to straighten this shit out. 8)

Palpatine Q

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Re: stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success
« Reply #249 on: February 16, 2011, 12:27:07 PM »
Looks like we need to bring Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones back to straighten this shit out. 8)

They didn't know either  :D

Mentzer was juiced to the gills.....he would grow flying a kite or sucking on a penis