Author Topic: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)  (Read 6151 times)

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Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« on: February 22, 2011, 10:33:15 PM »
An Atheist Manifesto
A Dig led by Sam Harris


Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.
The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious.  Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

 

It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a guy or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God  should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: Most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. Parents lose their children and children their parents. Husbands and wives are separated in an instant, never to meet again. Friends part company in haste, without knowing that it will be for the last time. This life, when surveyed with a broad glance, presents little more than a vast spectacle of loss. Most people in this world, however, imagine that there is a cure for this. If we live rightly—not necessarily ethically, but within the framework of certain ancient beliefs and stereotyped behaviors—we will get everything we want after we die. When our bodies finally fail us, we just shed our corporeal ballast and travel to a land where we are reunited with everyone we loved while alive. Of course, overly rational people and other rabble will be kept out of this happy place, and those who suspended their disbelief while alive will be free to enjoy themselves for all eternity.

We live in a world of unimaginable surprises—from the fusion energy that lights the sun to the genetic and evolutionary consequences of this lights dancing for eons upon the Earth—and yet Paradise conforms to our most superficial concerns with all the fidelity of a Caribbean cruise. This is wondrously strange. If one didn’t know better, one would think that man, in his fear of losing all that he loves, had created heaven, along with its gatekeeper God, in his own image.

Consider the destruction that Hurricane Katrina leveled on New Orleans. More than a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and nearly a million were displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely he heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: These poor people died talking to an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm of biblical proportions would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. Nevertheless, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that 80% of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As Hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran: Their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence; their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is—and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.
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theonlyone

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 10:45:33 PM »
 Make me happy, make my life worth, make me healthy, make me a millionaire and I will believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and compassionate God. You're a nothing to make deals with God. I spit on your weak philosophy.

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 10:48:51 PM »
The smartest people are the ones who pretend to believe in religion, mix with religious people, then rip them off for all they are worth.

They are called the clergy.

big L dawg

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 10:55:53 PM »
One wonders just how vast and gratuitous a catastrophe would have to be to shake the world’s faith. The Holocaust did not do it. Neither did the genocide in Rwanda, even with machete-wielding priests among the perpetrators. Five hundred million people died of smallpox in the 20th Century, many of them infants. God’s ways are, indeed, inscrutable. It seems that any fact, no matter how infelicitous, can be rendered compatible with religious faith. In matters of faith, we have kicked ourselves loose of the Earth.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: The biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion—to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions and religious diversions of scarce resources—is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.
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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 11:41:48 PM »
One wonders just how vast and gratuitous a catastrophe would have to be to shake the world’s faith. The Holocaust did not do it. Neither did the genocide in Rwanda, even with machete-wielding priests among the perpetrators. Five hundred million people died of smallpox in the 20th Century, many of them infants. God’s ways are, indeed, inscrutable. It seems that any fact, no matter how infelicitous, can be rendered compatible with religious faith. In matters of faith, we have kicked ourselves loose of the Earth.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: The biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion—to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions and religious diversions of scarce resources—is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.

theonlyone

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 11:51:32 PM »


 Collider is not able to show the image of God's balls you are so eager to see or is able? A sudden lights out and who knows? :-\

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 11:52:05 PM »
And yet the Bible states that life is "like the wink of an eye" to God...


and also that he will "come like a thief in the night"



Both are analogies, and both are fitting. Humans have absolutely no comprehension of a word like "omnipotent" or "omniscient"- humans have no concept of "infinity"


So, to try and reason with some type of logic in all that surrounds you is nothing more than a slight effort in futility. Accept the fact that you have no comprehension and realize that your salvation is dependent upon many things; one of which is "faith"- another is "hope"


"You will never find an atheist in a foxhole"


Everyone aspires to a supreme being at some point in life. How you choose, and more importantly "how you are chosen" is key.


Atheism, regardless of whether or not it is a religion, philosophy or some form of fundamental theory of existence, is nothing more than an irrational belief in absolutely nothing. Atheism creates no hope. Atheism is constantly waiting to be denounced.


Notable atheists have converted to Christianity. The reverse never happens.



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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 11:54:02 PM »
If I weren't already an atheist, i'd think that Sam Harris was the antichrist.

Cool guy

theonlyone

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 11:57:53 PM »
 Every atheist is eagerly wants to see God's balls. But an atheist hasn't got no balls nor heart to confess in it

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2011, 12:45:43 AM »
The Nature of Belief
According to several recent polls, 22% of Americans are certain that Jesus will return to Earth sometime in the next 50 years. Another 22% believe that he will probably do so. This is likely the same 44% who go to church once a week or more, who believe that God literally promised the land of Israel to the Jews and who want to stop teaching our children about the biological fact of evolution. As President Bush is well aware, believers of this sort constitute the most cohesive and motivated segment of the American electorate. Consequently, their views and prejudices now influence almost every decision of national importance. Political liberals seem to have drawn the wrong lesson from these developments and are now thumbing Scripture, wondering how best to ingratiate themselves to the legions of men and women in our country who vote largely on the basis of religious dogma. More than 50% of Americans have a “negative” or “highly negative” view of people who do not believe in God; 70% think it important for presidential candidates to be “strongly religious.” Unreason is now ascendant in the United States—in our schools, in our courts and in each branch of the federal government. Only 28% of Americans believe in evolution; 68% believe in Satan. Ignorance in this degree, concentrated in both the head and belly of a lumbering superpower, is now a problem for the entire world.

Although it is easy enough for smart people to criticize religious fundamentalism, something called “religious moderation” still enjoys immense prestige in our society, even in the ivory tower. This is ironic, as fundamentalists tend to make a more principled use of their brains than “moderates” do. While fundamentalists justify their religious beliefs with extraordinarily poor evidence and arguments,  at least they make an attempt at rational justification. Moderates, on the other hand, generally do nothing more than cite the good consequences of religious belief. Rather than say that they believe in God because certain biblical prophecies have come true, moderates will say that they believe in God because this belief “gives their lives meaning.” When a tsunami killed a few hundred thousand people on the day after Christmas, fundamentalists readily interpreted this cataclysm as evidence of God’s wrath. As it turns out, God was sending humanity another oblique message about the evils of abortion, idolatry and homosexuality. While morally obscene, this interpretation of events is actually reasonable, given certain (ludicrous) assumptions. Moderates, on the other hand, refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever about God from his works. God remains a perfect mystery, a mere source of consolation that is compatible with the most desolating evil. In the face of disasters like the Asian tsunami, liberal piety is apt to produce the most unctuous and stupefying nonsense imaginable. And yet, men and women of goodwill naturally prefer such vacuities to the odious moralizing and prophesizing of true believers. Between catastrophes, it is surely a virtue of liberal theology that it emphasizes mercy over wrath. It is worth noting, however, that it is human mercy on display—not God’s—when the bloated bodies of the dead are pulled from the sea. On days when thousands of children are simultaneously torn from their mothers’ arms and casually drowned, liberal theology must stand revealed for what it is—the sheerest of mortal pretenses. Even the theology of wrath has more intellectual merit. If God exists, his will is not inscrutable. The only thing inscrutable in these terrible events is that so many neurologically healthy men and women can believe the unbelievable and think this the height of moral wisdom.

It is perfectly absurd for religious moderates to suggest that a rational human being can believe in God simply because this belief makes him happy, relieves his fear of death or gives his life meaning. The absurdity becomes obvious the moment we swap the notion of God for some other consoling proposition: Imagine, for instance, that a man wants to believe that there is a diamond buried somewhere in his yard that is the size of a refrigerator. No doubt it would feel uncommonly good to believe this. Just imagine what would happen if he then followed the example of religious moderates and maintained this belief along pragmatic lines: When asked why he thinks that there is a diamond in his yard that is thousands of times larger than any yet discovered, he says things like, “This belief gives my life meaning,” or “My family and I enjoy digging for it on Sundays,” or “I wouldn’t want to live in a universe where there wasn’t a diamond buried in my backyard that is the size of a refrigerator.” Clearly these responses are inadequate. But they are worse than that. They are the responses of a madman or an idiot.

Here we can see why Pascal’s wager, Kierkegaard’s leap of faith and other epistemological Ponzi schemes won’t do. To believe that God exists is to believe that one stands in some relation to his existence such that his existence is itself the reason for one’s belief. There must be some causal connection, or an appearance thereof, between the fact in question and a person’s acceptance of it. In this way, we can see that religious beliefs, to be beliefs about the way the world is, must be as evidentiary in spirit as any other. For all their sins against reason, religious fundamentalists understand this; moderates—almost by definition—do not.

The incompatibility of reason and faith has been a self-evident feature of human cognition and public discourse for centuries. Either a person has good reasons for what he strongly believes or he does not. People of all creeds naturally recognize the primacy of reasons and resort to reasoning and evidence wherever they possibly can. When rational inquiry supports the creed it is always championed; when it poses a threat, it is derided; sometimes in the same sentence. Only when the evidence for a religious doctrine is thin or nonexistent, or there is compelling evidence against it, do its adherents invoke “faith.” Otherwise, they simply cite the reasons for their beliefs (e.g. “the New Testament confirms Old Testament prophecy,” “I saw the face of Jesus in a window,” “We prayed, and our daughter’s cancer went into remission”). Such reasons are generally inadequate, but they are better than no reasons at all. Faith is nothing more than the license religious people give themselves to keep believing when reasons fail. In a world that has been shattered by mutually incompatible religious beliefs, in a nation that is growing increasingly beholden to Iron Age conceptions of God, the end of history and the immortality of the soul, this lazy partitioning of our discourse into matters of reason and matters of faith is now unconscionable.
DAWG

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2011, 12:53:56 AM »
its usually proper to quote the source and credit the author!!!

like the writing, but without the reference its pretty arrogant...

im an atheist btw and i pick up the quote "youll never find an atheist in a fox hole"...is BS.

you might "wish" for help... but you know god aint coming to save ya...its up to lady luck...are you saying that lady luck is a manifestation of god?!


big L dawg

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2011, 01:03:20 AM »
its usually proper to quote the source and credit the author!!!

like the writing, but without the reference its pretty arrogant...

im an atheist btw and i pick up the quote "youll never find an atheist in a fox hole"...is BS.

you might "wish" for help... but you know god aint coming to save ya...its up to lady luck...are you saying that lady luck is a manifestation of god?!



obviously you didnt read the 1st 2 lines of the 1st post of this thead

"An Atheist Manifesto
A Dig led by Sam Harris"

(its very long and cant be put into one post fyi)
DAWG

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2011, 01:28:28 AM »
christians call pagans anyone who doesn't believe in Yahew  ::), doesn't matter are they religious, they are pagans if they don't SWOOOORE an oath in the name OF JESUS!!!!!

there's many religious people on these boards, they just don't give a crap about jesus or yahew... even íf they are true ;P

 :D




theonlyone

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2011, 02:10:56 AM »
 Wtf does that black guy copy and paste? Can he summarize that in one quote something like - God doesn't exist, proved scientifically!

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 02:53:15 AM »
Every atheist is eagerly wants to see God's balls. But an atheist hasn't got no balls nor heart to confess in it


The atheist just basically spends his life "pretending" there is no God, until it is convenient to change his mind. A life of misery, but more of an insidious misery, not one they can openly admit.


Atheists question why evil exists since God is good, but don't ask why good exists if God isn't real.


Everything in the universe shows obvious and undeniable signs that it was created by a mind far superior to our own.



I would like to witness the "foxhole" analogy- from one who denies that when death is inevitable, he sticks to his non-believing guns.


devilsmile

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2011, 03:06:32 AM »
those videos I posted describes extremely well the double standard in 99% of christians and muslims fate.

You try to be proud and grate with this thread.. but if you want to be the follower of god, just be one.

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2011, 03:15:06 AM »
What is a person you can't reason with? Mad? Utterly insane? This is how religion fucks with the mind.

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2011, 03:38:25 AM »


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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2011, 03:57:29 AM »
And yet the Bible states that life is "like the wink of an eye" to God...


and also that he will "come like a thief in the night"



Both are analogies, and both are fitting. Humans have absolutely no comprehension of a word like "omnipotent" or "omniscient"- humans have no concept of "infinity"


So, to try and reason with some type of logic in all that surrounds you is nothing more than a slight effort in futility. Accept the fact that you have no comprehension and realize that your salvation is dependent upon many things; one of which is "faith"- another is "hope"


"You will never find an atheist in a foxhole"


Everyone aspires to a supreme being at some point in life. How you choose, and more importantly "how you are chosen" is key.


Atheism, regardless of whether or not it is a religion, philosophy or some form of fundamental theory of existence, is nothing more than an irrational belief in absolutely nothing. Atheism creates no hope. Atheism is constantly waiting to be denounced.


Notable atheists have converted to Christianity. The reverse never happens.



Wrong.

Charles Darwin became an atheist after being religious all his life.

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2011, 04:00:03 AM »

The atheist just basically spends his life "pretending" there is no God, until it is convenient to change his mind. A life of misery, but more of an insidious misery, not one they can openly admit.


Atheists question why evil exists since God is good, but don't ask why good exists if God isn't real.


Everything in the universe shows obvious and undeniable signs that it was created by a mind far superior to our own.



I would like to witness the "foxhole" analogy- from one who denies that when death is inevitable, he sticks to his non-believing guns.


Wrong.

Carl Sagan stuck to his atheist guns right till the end.

Btw, you have been trained well to spin your shit i'm sure some of it sticks.

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2011, 06:43:03 AM »

Atheism, regardless of whether or not it is a religion, philosophy or some form of fundamental theory of existence, is nothing more than an irrational belief in absolutely nothing. Atheism creates no hope. Atheism is constantly waiting to be denounced.

Notable atheists have converted to Christianity. The reverse never happens.


You're seriously misinformed.

Atheism is lack of belief, not a belief in nothing. Big difference.

The reverse never happens? Seriously now. It's happening in droves.

The odds are Atheism is the true nature of the Universe. One can hope otherwise, but it just doesn't appear so. Virtually all science points to no creator.
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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 08:41:21 AM »
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theonlyone

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Re: Imagine there is no heaven(an atheist manifesto)
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2011, 09:24:17 AM »
You're seriously misinformed.

Atheism is lack of belief, not a belief in nothing.

 Atheism is inability to accept God, one believes in Santa Claus when young...