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[Roger Bacon]

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[Hugo Chavez]

I don't understand why there need is to be laws on the books regarding collective bargaining and the way unions are managed, and dealt with? Couldn't groups of employees organize, strike, and negotiate on their own, (the ones that were interested) wihhout some formal laws in place?  I mean aren't people free to band together and say "fuck you that's not a good deal" to their employeer without all these collective bargaining laws?

nope. without the laws they would be fired in short order.  Unless they pulled it at a time where unemployment was at its lowest, but that might just buy some of them a little more time before being fired.

Both sides have a bad side on this issue.  Several here point out the problems with unions and many points are true.  At the same time, I really don't think we want to see things return to the way it was before.  If the unions were gone tomorrow, it wouldn't take long before business heads back to their glory days of exploiting every ounce of life from their workers and leaving them nothing more than modern slaves.

[Primemuscle]

I don't understand why there need is to be laws on the books regarding collective bargaining and the way unions are managed, and dealt with? Couldn't groups of employees organize, strike, and negotiate on their own, (the ones that were interested) wihhout some formal laws in place?  I mean aren't people free to band together and say "fuck you that's not a good deal" to their employeer without all these collective bargaining laws?

And we could still be working 16 hours a day for pennies with child labor still being the norm. Understand that this is how the rich get richer and the poor poorer. Maybe we should bring back slavery too....that way I wouldn't have to pay someone to do those things I can't or don't wish to do for myself; things like cleaning the toilet and mowing the lawn.

[Soul Crusher]

We have thousands of laws on the books as well as dozens of agencies now dealing w that.  Its more fear mongering by unions. 

[Kazan]

And we could still be working 16 hours a day for pennies with child labor still being the norm. Understand that this is how the rich get richer and the poor poorer. Maybe we should bring back slavery too....that way I wouldn't have to pay someone to do those things I can't or don't wish to do for myself; things like cleaning the toilet and mowing the lawn.

And how exactly is that going to happen? Because unions disappear, take a guess at what percentage actually unionized? I don't see anyone here bitching about private sector unions, only public sector unions.

[Hugo Chavez]

And how exactly is that going to happen? Because unions disappear, take a guess at what percentage actually unionized? I don't see anyone here bitching about private sector unions, only public sector unions.

Because it's a major issue right now.  There's been plenty of bitching about "private sector unions" here.  Not that such bitches are totally a bad thing.

[Kazan]

Because it's a major issue right now.  There's been plenty of bitching about "private sector unions" here.  Not that such bitches are totally a bad thing.

The path of destruction that private sector unions speaks for itself, I  was going to say atleast they are on the tax payer tit, but hell we had the GM bailout

[Soul Crusher]

In my mind the two are not even remotely related.  I see no reason at all for publicx sector unions.  None at all.  

[Soul Crusher]

Oh, I see and didn't really consider that.  They would just fire the people that decided to strike and rehire people that would do the job for less until we were back to the way it was during the industrial revolution?

This is why laws are needed?

Again - we have reams of laws on the books as well as duplicative agencies policing these abuses as well as redress in the courts.   

The public sector unions are nothing by a money laundering operation for democrats.   They serve no purpose whatsoever other than to rape the taxpayer and get democrats elected. 

[Hugo Chavez]

In my mind the two are not even remotely related.  I see no reason at all for publicx sector unions.  None at all.  

you've suggested there is a role for them in the past, was that just sweet talk?

[Soul Crusher]

you've suggested there is a role for them in the past, was that just sweet talk?

Never.   I can see trades unions, but not public sector unions at all.   Public sector unions are worse than parasites, they are like locusts and vampires sucking the taxpayer dry. 

[Hugo Chavez]

Oh, I see and didn't really consider that.  They would just fire the people that decided to strike and rehire people that would do the job for less until we were back to the way it was during the industrial revolution?

This is why laws are needed?

It's hard for me to side with lawmakers or say why laws are needed when the fact is a great portion of the legislation passed in this country is unneeded and often complete bullshit.  The one thing that I do know is that a corporation has the fucking mentality of a virus.  If they see an opening they'll jump on it, if the opening is not there they'll work on creating it.  A corporation does not have a conscience about these things.  There is nothing that's ultimately off limits for them.  Once one obstruction is out of the way it's a whole new wall of things for them to work at.  They won't just stand there and say, oh great, this is what we want.  They'll keep going and going and going.  There's got to be some freaking middleground.  It wouldn't be wise to just give them an open field to play.  If we did, I have no doubt that at some future point they would weed us all back to a state of two classes: the poor working their asses to death and the rich.  

They're screwing Americans anyway with all of this outsourcing and globalization (like a virus).  All of this stuff including this issue is one more planned item on a list of things designed to bring us down and create some one world unified whatever lol...

[Hugo Chavez]

Never.   I can see trades unions, but not public sector unions at all.   Public sector unions are worse than parasites, they are like locusts and vampires sucking the taxpayer dry. 

Sorry, my bust, I read your post wrong.  What you just said goes with what your post above said and what you've said in the past.  I just fucked up and read it wrong.  Sorry bro.

[Soul Crusher]

Private sector unions serve a purpose and are subject to what the market can bear and have market forces dictating pricing.

Public sector unions are a function of what can be promised by politicians funded by unions, but poaid for by the taxpayers.  Its a different and wholly unfair dynamic at play.

[Hugo Chavez]

Private sector unions serve a purpose and are subject to what the market can bear and have market forces dictating pricing.

Public sector unions are a function of what can be promised by politicians funded by unions, but poaid for by the taxpayers.  Its a different and wholly unfair dynamic at play.

not sure that's where the OP was going with his question as he didn't mention this being about the current public union issues but I hear ya.  I think a lot of people are seeing the problems caused in this area.

[Primemuscle]

In my mind the two are not even remotely related.  I see no reason at all for publicx sector unions.  None at all.  

Well then, I guess it is obvious you have never been a public employee....like say a school bus driver....most of whom work part time and make about $12 a hour in Oregon. Oh and part time means you drive at 6:00 a.m. in the morning get a long unpaid mid morning break and then drive again in the afternoon until about 5:00 p.m. If you are lucky you'll get an extra trip, like taking a bunch of rowdy football players to their away game and then bringing them back when they are either in a foul mood because they lost or losing it because they won. You might think the benefits are good until you discover that because you work parttime, you are not eligible for benefits. Well, you do get summers off, unpaid. You'll need another job for the summer because school employees do not qualify for unemployment during school breaks.

Or maybe you rather be a school custodian. Again most postions are partime and start at around $12 an hour. You won't mind cleaning a urinal that some kid took a shit in, will you? When you get done vacuuming about 10,000 sq. ft. of carpet in about three hours, you can go out and police the grounds where homeless folks have smashed their beer bottles, left their used condoms for you and pissed on the school steps.

I could describe each classified school employees job for you....maybe you'll find one you like. Regardless of which one it is though, don't expect to get rich doing it. As for job security, you can forget that too. With budget cuts, may school districts are looking for volunteers to replace the folks they laid off last month. Care to volunteer?

And this is with public sector unions. Imagine how good it would be without them?

[George Whorewell]

It sounds like you're a pathetic, underpaid, overworked bus driver who never gets laid and has an iron lung.


Private unions should be entitled to CB. Public ones should not when it comes to benefits and other entitlements. End of story.

Bargaining against the American taxpayer and shaking down politicians in exchange for votes is a repugnant practice that the dems have been getting away with for years. What's the end result? Kids who can't read, teachers who couldn't teach a monkey how to take a shit walking away with 100k/ year pensions, a public sector that has grown exponentially while the private sector has shrunk and some of the biggest states in America going broke.

This is not a class warfare issue, this is not a workers rights issue. Plain and simple it is whether or not America can afford to destroy itself at the expense of 12% of the workforce; most of which are lazy, braindead slobs who are underworked and overpaid.

Cops, EMS workers and firefighters are the only public workers that I have any sympathy for in terms of CB because they save lives and can dismantle the entire locality if they decide to strike. Teachers, garbage collectors, bureaucrats and other public worker slime should shut up and be happy for what they have.  

[Primemuscle]

It sounds like you're a pathetic, underpaid, overworked bus driver who never gets laid and has an iron lung.


Private unions should be entitled to CB. Public ones should not when it comes to benefits and other entitlements. End of story.

Bargaining against the American taxpayer and shaking down politicians in exchange for votes is a repugnant practice that the dems have been getting away with for years. What's the end result? Kids who can't read, teachers who couldn't teach a monkey how to take a shit walking away with 100k/ year pensions, a public sector that has grown exponentially while the private sector has shrunk and some of the biggest states in America going broke.

This is not a class warfare issue, this is not a workers rights issue. Plain and simple it is whether or not America can afford to destroy itself at the expense of 12% of the workforce; most of which are lazy, braindead slobs who are underworked and overpaid.

Cops, EMS workers and firefighters are the only public workers that I have any sympathy for in terms of CB because they save lives and can dismantle the entire locality if they decide to strike. Teachers, garbage collectors, bureaucrats and other public worker slime should shut up and be happy for what they have.  

Although I was never a school bus driver, I am not on an iron lung and I do get laid (which has nothing to do with anything here), let's talk about school bus drivers and teachers for minute. Like you say, police, EMS workers and firefighters save lives. Likewise, parents entrust their most precious gift, their children to school bus drivers, cooks, teachers and other school employees 190 days a year for anywhere from 7 to 10 hours a day. They expect these underpaid folks will safely transport, feed, teach and otherwise provide a safe environment to their children....in their absence. Before you undervalue and judge school employees, you should spend a day at school yourself. Walk in their shoes before you devalue their importance.

Public employees are not responsible for the financial crisis we are all experiencing, the banking/financial industry and much of corporate America is....and yes, with the aid of politicians who are beholding to them and their lobbyist. Public sector unions and employees may go out a stump for a candidate, but they cannot match corporations when in comes to campaign donations. Money talks.

[Skip8282]

Although I was never a school bus driver, I am not on an iron lung and I do get laid (which has nothing to do with anything here), let's talk about school bus drivers and teachers for minute. Like you say, police, EMS workers and firefighters save lives. Likewise, parents entrust their most precious gift, their children to school bus drivers, cooks, teachers and other school employees 190 days a year for anywhere from 7 to 10 hours a day. They expect these underpaid folks will safely transport, feed, teach and otherwise provide a safe environment to their children....in their absence. Before you undervalue and judge school employees, you should spend a day at school yourself. Walk in their shoes before you devalue their importance.

Public employees are not responsible for the financial crisis we are all experiencing, the banking/financial industry and much of corporate America is....and yes, with the aid of politicians who are beholding to them and their lobbyist. Public sector unions and employees may go out a stump for a candidate, but they cannot match corporations when in comes to campaign donations. Money talks.

Not sure, but I don't think GW's trying to devalue their importance (in fact I think one of his family members is an educator if I remember), but the point is public unions should not be competing against corporations for political clout.

Equitable treatment, an honest wage, safe work place etc., are all fine.  But harboring incompetence, demanding little if any contributions to their benefits, and all that crap is what collective bargaining has often become. 

[tonymctones]

why should bus drivers get paid for time they arent working prime?

I think bus drivers are somewhat different as they do like you said have a more tangible responsibility for the welfare of children. But cooks and janitors dont need to be making 30k a year bro sorry...

if you think they are entitled to make that then you really shouldnt bitch at all about superintendents making 100k a year...

[Soul Crusher]

Where I live janitors make over 100k.

[blacken700]

Where I live janitors make over 100k.

source 

[Soul Crusher]

Look it up.

[blacken700]

i did 33,000 far cry from 100,000

[George Whorewell]

Although I was never a school bus driver, I am not on an iron lung and I do get laid (which has nothing to do with anything here), let's talk about school bus drivers and teachers for minute. Like you say, police, EMS workers and firefighters save lives. Likewise, parents entrust their most precious gift, their children to school bus drivers, cooks, teachers and other school employees 190 days a year for anywhere from 7 to 10 hours a day. They expect these underpaid folks will safely transport, feed, teach and otherwise provide a safe environment to their children....in their absence. Before you undervalue and judge school employees, you should spend a day at school yourself. Walk in their shoes before you devalue their importance.

Public employees are not responsible for the financial crisis we are all experiencing, the banking/financial industry and much of corporate America is....and yes, with the aid of politicians who are beholding to them and their lobbyist. Public sector unions and employees may go out a stump for a candidate, but they cannot match corporations when in comes to campaign donations. Money talks.

My mother was a public school teacher and principal so believe me I know 10x about what teachers go through than you do. Skip has it right. You have it wrong and you are also confusing the issues because you have no clue what your talking about. Public employees make their money because their salaries are taken from my paycheck, your paycheck and every other tax payers paycheck. I don't give a fuck about what corporations make or donate to politicians because they make their money through the marketplace in the form of goods and services that people pay for with their disposable income.